General Considering twinair with dualogic: good or bad idea?

[ratatouille]

Hello all,

I will buy a fiat 500 & would like to choose the twinair engine.

I would also like to add a dualogic box but the dealer advises me to not choose this combination.
He told me that the twinair is too abrupt and may fatigue prematurely the dualogic gearbox.

I've made some search before posting but only saw posts from 2012/13 about the couple twinair/dualogic.

Is there any contraindication to buy twinair with dualogic?
Main use will be city driving.

Many thanks in advance!

 

[Candisa]

Apart from which engine you pick, if you search about the Dualogic gearbox you'll find lots of horror stories reliability wise...
The only experience I have with it is from a Panda loaner car I once drove and will never drive again despite it being one of the most modern loaners my garage has to offer: sluggish, jerky and far from "logic".

 

[John202020]

By all means buy a Duralogic, Brand new and always sell before warranty expires

 

[ratatouille]

woaw...
thanks for your answers.
The dealer give me 4 years warranty (autoshow conditions. I think normally it's 2 years).
It'll be a brand new vehicle.

So dualogic is not so good, even without considering combined with twinair or not, as I can read..



OMG, I feel lost...

 

[ahmett]

woaw...
thanks for your answers.
The dealer give me 4 years warranty (autoshow conditions. I think normally it's 2 years).
It'll be a brand new vehicle.

So dualogic is not so good, even without considering combined with twinair or not, as I can read..



OMG, I feel lost...

Basically sure buy it, just keep 1250 EUR spare in case it fails out of warranty = )


(ahmet, the guy who paid 1250 EUR spare when it broke out of warranty = ) )

 

[Candisa]

Get the manual: win-win
Win: Cheaper to buy
Win: A lot less likely to have costly repairs

If you insist on having a budget to blow and you were already planning on a highly equipped TA, buy an Abarth instead, much better investment!

 

[44sunsets]

If you're really hell-bent on getting a Dualogic FIAT car, make sure you buy brand-new.

If you're considering getting one second hand, that's a little like playing Russian roulette -- make sure you read all of the Dualogic failure thread and see if you're still keen
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/425006-one-only-dualogic-failure-thread.html

I'd only recommend a Dualogic if you buy brand-new, and you don't drive your car much -- high mileage and Dualogic don't seem to mix.

 

[ratatouille]

that's crazy. I did not realized that dualogic was a problem in itself at this point.
Naively thought that coupling dualogic and TA could cause problems.
I guess that dualogic with the 1.2 engine will lead to same report. hmm...
fyi I drive approximately only 6000km/year (3700 miles); 90% in town (and that's why I consider the dualogic)...

well well. thanks for your answers

 

[UFI]

The manual on a 500 is so pleasant and easy to use, I don't know why you'd bother with any thing else. Then again I drive a non-syncro pick-up as an alternate daily across the CBD.

All robotised manuals have much the same issues, it's not limited to Fiat by any means. Of course, I wouldn't touch any of the dual clutch options either, they're all a ticking financial time bomb.

 

[Candisa]

Totally agree: a good old fashioned slushbox stays the best long term if you want an auto.

 

[p6baseunit]

I bought a twinair with duologic in January 2014, so this car is now 3 years old with 32000kms on the clock. I bought all of the extras at the time so it came with the steering wheel gear change paddles etc.
Your dealer is talking rubbish! The gearbox is the same as manual car, with a hydraulic robotic computer controlled gear change.
I absolutely love mine! It's smooth and the gearbox ecu will learn your driving style over several weeks and adapt.
It has only been serviced at a Fiat / Alfa specialist since new and they check the gearbox for hydraulic leaks and fluid levels and all has been fine in this time.
I have had no problems up to now and the car drives like a dream.. I really like the combination of engine and box. Although I am aware of the fact that all of these type of automated gearboxes cause problems eventually... VW Audi DSG gearboxes have issues also.
Here in the UK the parts to replace the automated part of the gearbox, pump, actuator etc are about £1600.. there are firms that will recon them for around £500.
Two things to keep in mind..... on a forum you will only find people who have had issues with them... and the dealers seem quite clueless about them in the UK.
I am in Spain at the moment with our 1.2 convertible... many of the hire car companies here use 1.2 duologics so they can't be that bad!

 

[John202020]

Totally agree: a good old fashioned slushbox stays the best long term if you want an auto.

My dad's "slush box" is coming up 322,000 kms! Yep.

 

[p6baseunit]

The larger slush boxes are more reliable with oil changes etc. But they would rob the little .9l twin air of power and it's CO2 and MPG ratings...
All of these automated manual gearboxes need more servicing and parts over time.. just look at the VW group's DSG setup. I know there is a long thread on this forum about the woes of the duologic box, where over time (from weeks to years on the age of the car) it has been problematic... but that thread represents the complaints of 40 to 50 people?
It doesn't reflect the true failure rate of these boxes. You will always find complaints on a forum... what about the 1000s of people driving these cars around without problems for years.

 

[p6baseunit]

Basically sure buy it, just keep 1250 EUR spare in case it fails out of warranty = )


(ahmet, the guy who paid 1250 EUR spare when it broke out of warranty = ) )

Also I suppose it depends on how much you love the car and how much you are willing and able to spend in later years on it.. As Ahmet points out it may cost €1250 to sort out when it's 4-7years old.
To be fair though I spent £600 in October 2016 having all four shocks replaced (the rears where knackered) including the front top mounts and I have just paid out another £400 on the service (reliable and trust worthy Fiat Alfa specialist) including front discs, pads and a brake fuild change.
The car is three years Old! If you want a car that you spend basically nothing on for 5 years, buy a Kia or Toyota lol.... not a Fiat!
I am happy to keep my car in top condition having spent £18000 to buy it. I can understand though that all of this would be very painful if you purchase a second hand one for £6000

 

[Candisa]

A gearbox is supposed to stay reliable for a reasonable time close to the life expectancy of an engine.
Nobody would ever buy a certain brand of car again if they had a costly engine failure (we're talking cilinder head revision money) at the age and miles Duologic gearboxes fail, despite proper maintenance, without any compensation from the dealer or the brand.

Why do people defend this?

 

[ahmett]

Also I suppose it depends on how much you love the car and how much you are willing and able to spend in later years on it.. As Ahmet points out it may cost €1250 to sort out when it's 4-7years old.
To be fair though I spent £600 in October 2016 having all four shocks replaced (the rears where knackered) including the front top mounts and I have just paid out another £400 on the service (reliable and trust worthy Fiat Alfa specialist) including front discs, pads and a brake fuild change.
The car is three years Old! If you want a car that you spend basically nothing on for 5 years, buy a Kia or Toyota lol.... not a Fiat!
I am happy to keep my car in top condition having spent £18000 to buy it. I can understand though that all of this would be very painful if you purchase a second hand one for £6000

Yes the shocks are a known problem on the Fiat 500 (together with dualogic). My rear shocks were leaking at 60,000 kms so I made sure to replace them all with Bilstein B14's!

Other than these two issues, my car has been fairly cheap to maintain.

 

[p6baseunit]

A gearbox is supposed to stay reliable for a reasonable time close to the life expectancy of an engine.
Nobody would ever buy a certain brand of car again if they had a costly engine failure (we're talking cilinder head revision money) at the age and miles Duologic gearboxes fail, despite proper maintenance, without any compensation from the dealer or the brand.

Why do people defend this?

Take a look at the VW group.. Audi, Skoda and VW have reliability issues with the DSG box.. was a massive recall in China etc, but not in Europe.
Also speaking of which, BMW has an issue with the turbos (failure) on their 2 litre diesels out of warranty.. due to long life oil and the extended length of time between oil changes...

Using your example above, I had a Honda CVR, our previous 4*4 that cost £4500 to put right after a cylinder head failure, 1 year out of warranty and 35000miles! Apparently fairly common! And the Honda dealership didn't want to know. Makes a duologic gearbox replacement look cheap.

Smart had a many issue with its previous MHD engine and premature failure of its drive belt and overheating.... oh and premature clutch failure on its US cars..
I could go on... there are many issues with many cars and some manufacturers.
People repeatedly continue to buy from the above manufacturers.
Also I wouldn't base the complaints of a forum on the actual failure rate of any specific car.
Unless you are an enthusiast, people come to forums only when they need help or advice.
All automatic gearboxes are intrinsically less reliable than their manual counterparts!

 

[Candisa]

I totally agree many brands have their issues.
That isn't an excuse to leave customers in the cold when a known issue comes up at a ridiculously young age or low mileage!

We all know Fiat isn't exactly the best when it comes to after sales service and aknowledging faulty designs, so why accept the risk if it can be avoided so easily ánd you can save money at the same time by simply going for the manual gearbox?
It's win-win: cheaper to buy, less likely to fail prematurely.

And I don't agree automatics are per definition more problematic: a lot of people wear out their clutch or synchromeshes at lower mileages than most old-fashioned slushboxes start to develop serious problems, even without riding the clutch or shifting like a rally pilot.

 

[p6baseunit]

And I don't agree automatics are per definition more problematic: a lot of people wear out their clutch or synchromeshes at lower mileages than most old-fashioned slushboxes start to develop serious problems, even without riding the clutch or shifting like a rally pilot.

Generally autoboxes, including the older style slush boxes are more unreliable...
Warranty statistics show this to be the case. They have so many more components and ECUs that generally there are never going to be more reliable than a human pushing a lever. As for riding a clutch on a manual box... the clutch is one thing that will last on a duologic lol.

I had a previous 3 series BMW auto box fail at 65000miles 5years old and cost a fortune to fix
As far as I am aware, Mercedes is the only European car manufacturer that historically makes cars with autoboxes that can typically last as long as their engines...
Unfortunately you can't compare Fiat to Mercedes-Benz.

I have two, 3 year old Fiat 500s both with less than 21000miles on the clock - one twin air duologic and a 1.2 manual.

I generally do more miles in my BMW x3, although I love the drive or the fun character of the 500s. The X3 will be 3 years old in June and at 45000miles has cost nothing above basic services. The two Fiats have set me back £1600 (£1000 on the twinair) in repairs over and above servicing this year alone.

Some of us happen to like automatic cars and I didn't buy a Fiat for trouble free motoring

 

[Candisa]

I like automatics too, but mainly because of the torque converter that lets you crawl slowly or launch very quickly, which are 2 things a robobox is rather terrible at.

Sounds like the 500 isn't the most reliable creation Fiat ever made...
I bought a Doblo with LPG conversion mainly because a customer of my dealer had 2 older 1.6 LPG converted Doblo's, 1 of them did 1.3 million kilometers on the original block, only needed a head revision at 600k km and a gearbox at 800k.
Considering the T-Jet is still a quite old-fashioned block compared to the direct-injection creations with egr from the french and the germans, I hope I made the right choice.
I'm at 9months and 25k km (17k miles) now, no problems so far, knock on wood...