General Cam belt change price

[Herts Hillhopper]

As mentioned before - independent Fiat specialist £280 inc vat, with water pump. We seem to be in agreement

 

[The Panda Nut]

My car now purring again, with another belt and tensioner (Fiat parts) fitted. (FOC) The other tensioner was apparently very slightly stiff in one direction.. Its now much more acceptable if still a little more whine than previously. IF it stays quiet Im happy and will make a donation towards the cost. I asked for a new aux belt and was asked for just the part cost, £26. Thats what I call proper service.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

My car now purring again, with another belt and tensioner (Fiat parts) fitted. (FOC) The other tensioner was apparently very slightly stiff in one direction.. Its now much more acceptable if still a little more whine than previously. IF it stays quiet Im happy and will make a donation towards the cost. I asked for a new aux belt and was asked for just the part cost, £26. Thats what I call proper service.

Sounds like they are good and honourable people. Nice to hear your car is back to normal. If the slight whine - for want of a better description - is anything like Becky's was/is, you'll likely find it gets a wee bit quieter over the first few thousand miles but never goes away entirely. Of course, if you're anything like me, once you know it's there you'll be hearing it all the time

 

[SB1500]

Glad to hear you got sorted properly

 

[The Panda Nut]

Sounds like they are good and honourable people. Nice to hear your car is back to normal. If the slight whine - for want of a better description - is anything like Becky's was/is, you'll likely find it gets a wee bit quieter over the first few thousand miles but never goes away entirely. Of course, if you're anything like me, once you know it's there you'll be hearing it all the time

I have a very good ear. I used to have perfect pitch and if thee is any extraneous noise I will hear it. Even Mrs Panda Nut said this was noisy the first time, and she says its a lot better. Normally she will drive along with loose wheels and a blown exhaust. Panda cambelts do all make a little noise and my daughters 2016 car belt can be heard just whining gently, but not enough to concern. I think the tensioner bearing was not quite as it should be. I shall insist on Fiat bits in future and just pay the price. I will have Magneti Marelli parts as most were the original equipment when it was made but particularly with stuff like this and always with filters I will avoid after market makers completely.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I have a very good ear. I used to have perfect pitch and if thee is any extraneous noise I will hear it. Even Mrs Panda Nut said this was noisy the first time, and she says its a lot better. Normally she will drive along with loose wheels and a blown exhaust. Panda cambelts do all make a little noise and my daughters 2016 car belt can be heard just whining gently, but not enough to concern. I think the tensioner bearing was not quite as it should be. I shall insist on Fiat bits in future and just pay the price. I will have Magneti Marelli parts as most were the original equipment when it was made but particularly with stuff like this and always with filters I will avoid after market makers completely.

Same here, it has to be something horribly wrong before Mrs J will admit to hearing it. I really do wonder if she's just being "difficult" sometimes but she just doesn't seem to have any natural "mechanical sympathy".

Regarding branded vs manufacturer parts. I suppose it's what you come to trust over the years. Personally I'd be very happy to fit most of the "big name" cam belt kits - Gates (my favourite) Continental, Dayco, INA, SKF, etc. With such an important part though I wouldn't entertain a make I wasn't 100% sure of. On the other hand I doubt if there's more than a handful of actual manufacturers of these belts and a lot of brands will be buying the belts used in their kits, and the auxiliary components, like idlers, tensioners and water pumps from the major manufacturers. Here's one for instance: https://bgautomotive.co.uk/automotive-aftermarket-parts/timing-belts/ who actually states it in their sales literature and there's no reason to suspect they won't be entirely satisfactory. I'm not quite so fussy when it comes to the likes of air and cabin filters but I'm much more fussy about oil filters and like either a genuine one or one of a small number of brands I've come to trust, Mahle original being one for instance.

There are a couple of things that worry me though. Counterfeit parts for one. I think this is probably more of a problem if you buy from on line retailers, but, as I buy mostly from local factors that's not such a worry to me. The other is sometimes what were big name and high quality parts that I've been used to all my life, unbeknownst to me have been bought out and their name only is now used to brand inferior goods. I don't know how you "navigate" that one. Which is another reason I pretty much only buy from trusted sources.

 

[SB1500]

There are a couple of things that worry me though. Counterfeit parts for one. I think this is probably more of a problem if you buy from on line retailers, but, as I buy mostly from local factors that's not such a worry to me. The other is sometimes what were big name and high quality parts that I've been used to all my life, unbeknownst to me have been bought out and their name only is now used to brand inferior goods. I don't know how you "navigate" that one. Which is another reason I pretty much only buy from trusted sources.

I had a similar experience in 2022 with sourcing Toyota parts online... watched some videos online about spotting counterfeit parts. And honestly, sometimes the fake parts looked better in terms of sharper text... higher quality labels than the originals are. Too risky. Started using the dealer.

Though Fiat dealers can be extortionate! To the point where they sometimes don't even use the 'genuine recommended' oils in the workshops. Though Shop4Parts is the perfect solution for Fiat / Alpha owners. I paid ~£150 on AutoDoc using the cheapest brands (usually 'Ridex') for that complete service of our Panda including the belt kit. For the same stuff, genuine parts, recommended fluids and all from S4P, just an extra £50... that's nothing really for all of the finest quality parts. £200 all in for parts, plus DIY, and I can't imagine a cheaper / better way to run a car!

As you say.. Bosch etc still good, but are they real? Internet has its drawbacks :-(

 

[earthman]

For anyone interested in doing this by the "tippex" method, here's a pretty good video on the procedure - It's a good video but sorry about the ads. Worth staying with it though because it covers an awful lot of the stuff many people struggle with:



He confuses the issue a bit by showing exactly where the crank pulley ends up if you use the crank locking "dumbell" tool but you can just completely ignore this bit as he's using his own marks in this example. The important thing is marking the pulleys and casings with paint/tippex (you'll notice he also marks both pulleys in two places as a precaution in case he accidentally erases one of the marks - probably a good idea). You'll also note that he very briefly mentions that he turns the top pulley slightly clockwise as he fits the belt so the teeth on the belt can engage with the pulley teeth. He doesn't make much of a "thing" about this, but, as discussed in the thread above, you'll not get the belt to mesh properly without doing this. This is very relevant to those who've done this job and ended up one tooth out!

You'll notice he says the belt is the original and still shows traces of the original FIAT lettering? I'd be very happy to feel 100% confident doing a belt change on this engine as the fact the belt is original means the cam pulley retaining bolt will not have been slackened in the past thus the timing of the cam pulley to the camshaft will be as set up in the factory. You can see how quick it is to do this way and, if you can be sure the cam pulley timing is correct - which in probably 95% of all these engines will be the case - it's definitely the "easy" way to do it.

This is exactly the way I do them if I can be quite sure the cam pulley is locked to the cam correctly. If it's an engine I don't know or can't be sure it's the first belt since it left the factory, I'll take the cam cover off, install the crank locking "dumbell" and check the cam locking bar drops into it's slot - which, so far, it always has on the one's I've checked. I don't want to falsely give the impression I've done "hundreds" of these, but I've done a few and, so far, I've not run into one where the cam pulley was wrongly fitted. It's worth adding that I've never had to do a "Phonic wheel relearn" after fitting a belt in this way and I'm convinced that's because if you slacken that top pulley bolt the relationship between the pulley and camshaft changes very slightly when it's retightened. In fact, because you must not attempt to tighten that bolt with the cam locking bar in place - because it's so damned tight the tool or shaft will be damaged if the shaft were to turn even slightly - so you've got to block the top pulley with the wee toothed tool and hold the cam itself with a spanner as you attempt to tighten the bolt with everything staying perfectly lined up. I'd just rather avoid if I can.

Edit. Oh, interesting. If you listen carefully, just after the engine starts and is running at slightly faster revs, you can hear the typical "worn alternator bearing" sound that some of us have mentioned in other threads. This one is not very pronounced, Becky is a little louder, but not much and I've heard louder. If you'rs does this don't worry about it, it's a built in feature with some but they don't all do it. You either get one that does or one that doesn't! You may find it easier to hear with a good set of cans over your ears.

Thanks for posting that video, I've done a couple of cam belts on a few twin cam engines over the years so this engine is not so complex but I always like to see exactly what I'm about to get involved in before hand if I can.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for posting that video, I've done a couple of cam belts on a few twin cam engines over the years so this engine is not so complex but I always like to see exactly what I'm about to get involved in before hand if I can.

Thanks. I've thought, a lot, about the problems people seem to have with doing these (renewing the belt on the 8 valve FIRE engines where there's no timing marks on the cam pulley) and I think there are two main ways of doing it. The first, and pretty much full proof way of doing it is "by the book" which entails using the locking tools and slackening the camshaft pulley retaining bolt - It only needs to be slackened enough to allow the pulley to be freed from the camshaft, in other words about half a turn, so the pulley is free to move independently of the camshaft. The second is where you don't slacken this bolt, and if you do it this way it can be done simply by marking the pulleys and casings with something like a tippex marker.

If you choose the "official" method then, apart from the cost of purchasing the locking tool kit (not that expensive for an eBay set) you've got to deal with the big bolt on the cam pulley. It's very tight indeed and you'll need to hold the camshaft itself from rotating while you tackle it - DON'T EVEN CONTEMPLATE LETTING THE CAM LOCKING TOOL TAKE THE STRAIN EITHER WHEN SLACKENING OR TIGHTENING. Also, because this pulley is "keyless", when the time comes to retighten it's securing bolt, you must be careful that the pulley doesn't move in relation to the shaft as you tighten it. The angular relationship between the pulley and the actual camshaft itself is critical to good running of the engine. Remember, if you've got the VVT (69hp) engine, then the "bolt" on the front of the pulley isn't actually a "bolt" at all. It's a removable plug under which is located the actual retaining bolt and when you remove this plug bolt there's going to be oil to catch - so be ready for that. (a big absorbent piece of rag will do fine). The retaining bolt has varied over the years between an "ordinary" hex headed jobie and a Torx on later engines. Use a good quality single hex socket if it's that type of bolt but, more importantly, don't use a "cheap" Torx bit on the Torx type as it's tightness is likely to cause a cheap bit to fail. Andy Monty's Guide is pretty much the definitive work as far as the forum is concerned: https://www.fiatforum.com/guides/1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.732/ and I'd recommend you read it.

The other way to do this is without slackening the cam pulley retaining bolt and marking up the pulleys and casings with something like tippex so you can retain the relative positions - as I'm a strong believer in "letting sleeping dogs lie" it appeals to me. I'd only recommend you doing it this way if you've some experience in these matters because you need to understand the deeper implications and be able to get yourself out of trouble if things don't work out. There are two main issues with doing it this way which people don't seem to take on board. The first is that it's only going to work properly if the last time the cam pulley bolt was disturbed then the cam shaft and pulley were correctly positioned when the bolt was retightened. If you can be sure the engine hasn't been "tampered with" since leaving the factory, ie. this is it's first belt change, then you're on pretty "safe" ground and if the vehicle has a full main agent history then any belt change should have been "properly" done so you can proceed with confidence. If however, it's an older car with uncertain history, then you really need to check the pulley timing for which you need to have a locking tool set. I don't want to sound as if I've done hundreds of these (although in total I've probably done hundreds of all makes during my working life - just to put things in context), however every one of the Pandas and my boy's Punto, that I've done so far, has been correctly timed and didn't need to have the cam pulley bolt disturbed.

As all our cars are older vehicles bought from small, not main agent, garages, I bought a Neilsen locking tool set from eBay in order to check the cam timing was correct before removing the old belt and all were correctly timed. So I think, in most cases, if the car is running well you can probably assume the cam pulley is correctly fitted/timed to the camshaft so you can use the "tippex" method with some confidence, However, because I'm a bit of a perfectionist, I will always check using the timing tools if it's a vehicle not known to me.

It's important to realize that with the cam and crank locking tools fitted, if the cam pulley bolt is not slackened you'll be able to remove the old belt but you won't be able to get the new belt to mesh correctly unless you turn the crankshaft slightly anticlockwise (take the top bolt out of the crankshaft locking tool to allow this) if you don't do this but simply fit the belt as best you can you'll very likely end up with the cam timing one tooth retarded, and engine lacking in power and, likely, the check engine light illuminating after starting the engine.

 

[earthman]

Thanks. I've thought, a lot, about the problems people seem to have with doing these (renewing the belt on the 8 valve FIRE engines where there's no timing marks on the cam pulley) and I think there are two main ways of doing it. The first, and pretty much full proof way of doing it is "by the book" which entails using the locking tools and slackening the camshaft pulley retaining bolt - It only needs to be slackened enough to allow the pulley to be freed from the camshaft, in other words about half a turn, so the pulley is free to move independently of the camshaft. The second is where you don't slacken this bolt, and if you do it this way it can be done simply by marking the pulleys and casings with something like a tippex marker.

If you choose the "official" method then, apart from the cost of purchasing the locking tool kit (not that expensive for an eBay set) you've got to deal with the big bolt on the cam pulley. It's very tight indeed and you'll need to hold the camshaft itself from rotating while you tackle it - DON'T EVEN CONTEMPLATE LETTING THE CAM LOCKING TOOL TAKE THE STRAIN EITHER WHEN SLACKENING OR TIGHTENING. Also, because this pulley is "keyless", when the time comes to retighten it's securing bolt, you must be careful that the pulley doesn't move in relation to the shaft as you tighten it. The angular relationship between the pulley and the actual camshaft itself is critical to good running of the engine. Remember, if you've got the VVT (69hp) engine, then the "bolt" on the front of the pulley isn't actually a "bolt" at all. It's a removable plug under which is located the actual retaining bolt and when you remove this plug bolt there's going to be oil to catch - so be ready for that. (a big absorbent piece of rag will do fine). The retaining bolt has varied over the years between an "ordinary" hex headed jobie and a Torx on later engines. Use a good quality single hex socket if it's that type of bolt but, more importantly, don't use a "cheap" Torx bit on the Torx type as it's tightness is likely to cause a cheap bit to fail. Andy Monty's Guide is pretty much the definitive work as far as the forum is concerned: https://www.fiatforum.com/guides/1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.732/ and I'd recommend you read it.

The other way to do this is without slackening the cam pulley retaining bolt and marking up the pulleys and casings with something like tippex so you can retain the relative positions - as I'm a strong believer in "letting sleeping dogs lie" it appeals to me. I'd only recommend you doing it this way if you've some experience in these matters because you need to understand the deeper implications and be able to get yourself out of trouble if things don't work out. There are two main issues with doing it this way which people don't seem to take on board. The first is that it's only going to work properly if the last time the cam pulley bolt was disturbed then the cam shaft and pulley were correctly positioned when the bolt was retightened. If you can be sure the engine hasn't been "tampered with" since leaving the factory, ie. this is it's first belt change, then you're on pretty "safe" ground and if the vehicle has a full main agent history then any belt change should have been "properly" done so you can proceed with confidence. If however, it's an older car with uncertain history, then you really need to check the pulley timing for which you need to have a locking tool set. I don't want to sound as if I've done hundreds of these (although in total I've probably done hundreds of all makes during my working life - just to put things in context), however every one of the Pandas and my boy's Punto, that I've done so far, has been correctly timed and didn't need to have the cam pulley bolt disturbed.

As all our cars are older vehicles bought from small, not main agent, garages, I bought a Neilsen locking tool set from eBay in order to check the cam timing was correct before removing the old belt and all were correctly timed. So I think, in most cases, if the car is running well you can probably assume the cam pulley is correctly fitted/timed to the camshaft so you can use the "tippex" method with some confidence, However, because I'm a bit of a perfectionist, I will always check using the timing tools if it's a vehicle not known to me.

It's important to realize that with the cam and crank locking tools fitted, if the cam pulley bolt is not slackened you'll be able to remove the old belt but you won't be able to get the new belt to mesh correctly unless you turn the crankshaft slightly anticlockwise (take the top bolt out of the crankshaft locking tool to allow this) if you don't do this but simply fit the belt as best you can you'll very likely end up with the cam timing one tooth retarded, and engine lacking in power and, likely, the check engine light illuminating after starting the engine.

Thanks for the link and all the great points you make there, I have a few special tools from that brand, never even thought about looking for a locking tool set from them. From an engineers point of view, I do scratch my head on why/how someone would come up keyless pulleys, no timing markings etc in the first place,......what a crazy world we live in.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for the link and all the great points you make there, I have a few special tools from that brand, never even thought about looking for a locking tool set from them. From an engineers point of view, I do scratch my head on why/how someone would come up keyless pulleys, no timing markings etc in the first place,......what a crazy world we live in.

Oh yes, a crazy world indeed! Here's the Neilsen kit I bought from an ebay supplier:

The wee square tool, with two teeth, to the left of the "dumbell" crankshaft locking tool is a home made flywheel locking tool I made and doesn't come with the kit.

There are quite a number of different brands like this - Neilsen, Bergen, US Pro, and others, which look all pretty much the same and I think they are probably generically produced in China or somewhere in that part if the world, quite possibly in the same factory? I too have a number of these products and find them of more than acceptable quality for serious amateur use. I have a particularly robust set of Bergen single hex deep sockets which have withstood some pretty serious "abuse".

Keyless pulley/sprockets? When I first came across these, like you, I thought "what madness is this"! I've now encountered them on both camshaft and crankshaft installations. My Ibiza and now my Scala both have these. The first one I dismantled, on a Panda, "horrified" me. I observed the end of the camshaft is machined parallel as is the bore of the pulley/sprocket (whatever you want to call it). No taper and no locating key! "What madness is this"? I thought. Surely it's not relying simply on the retaining bolt being so tightly done up that the friction between the pulley and shaft is what's transmitting the drive? But yes, that's exactly how it does it - which explains why the bolt is so damned tight!

However, when you apply "the little grey cells" to this setup it actually makes a lot of sense. When a lot younger I built a small number of "performance" engines - the two I was most proud of was my 1275 Cooper "S" and I also helped build a big bore VW engine for a beach buggy. One of the things that's of paramount importance if the full benefit of a modified camshaft is to be fully realized is to get the timing between the cam and crankshaft set up absolutely spot on and I remember spending some hours messing about with a DTI and hand filing offset woodruff keys - like this for instance: https://beedspeed.com/products/cdi-...BjqHb_FPAn_I2nIARK0nAt70KV_rsQf8aAm7REALw_wcB So I could get it spot on. If you make either the crankshaft or cam shaft pulley keyless (or both, as in the case of the EA211 engine in the VAG jobbies) then all you've got to do to achieve "perfect" timing is to free the pulley retaining bolts, thus allowing the pulleys to rotate independently to the shafts, Lock up the cam and crankshaft in their exact correct positions, fit and tension the cam belt (or chain if it's chain driven) and then tighten the pulleys back onto their respective shafts. Of course you need to be extra careful that the shafts don't move in relation to their pulleys as the bolts are tightened, but, if you do it "right", the cam timing will probably be more accurately set than could possibly be achieved with a keyed setup.

getting back specifically to our wee FIRE engines and having done one this way and struggling with the tightness of the cam pulley bolt, what I found myself wondering was "why can't I do this the old tippex way by simply marking up the pulleys"? I set out to do a bit of research around the local garages. Tried the main agent first and didn't get very far. Unsurprisingly I couldn't get past the reception desk who would only say they did it as recommended by Fiat. Tried their much more helpful spares counter (who have been very helpful in the past) but they couldn't advise me on workshop practice. Tried hanging about the workshop entrance but I got some pretty hostile looks, was obviously not welcome, so beat a hasty retreat. Next I went round a number of the local wee garages where I'm a "known face" and all, very openly, said they do them by marking up the pulleys.

Ok, I'm greatly encouraged by that, but there are a couple of possible problems I can see which I'd like to check up on before defaulting to always doing it this way.

Firstly, How similar are different makes of belt? What worried me here was that there might be small but significant differences between, say, a Dayco or Gates (my normal "go to") or Continental, or whatever, belt. We used Gates belts almost exclusively at work and I'd come to deeply respect their quality - never actually known one to fail in normal service. So I rang their technical advice and had a most interesting conversation around this aspect. In essence what they said was that the belts have to be produced to identical dimensions to comply with the manufacturer's original spec so, in their opinion, dimensionally, especially in respect of length and tooth pitch, all belts must be as near identical as to make no difference. I'm happy with that and have compared different manufacturer's belts (I've got a bunch of Panda ones hanging on a nail in the garage) and I can't see any difference between them apart from the Dayco belts which are dimensionally identical but have a white colour finish on their inner toothed surface so they must be using a different material for the teeth? I've concluded that no matter which brand of belt you choose - and I'd never use a make which wasn't a well known name - it's going to be as near as makes no odds, identical to the one you're replacing. So that lays that worry to rest.

The second is that if, at some time in the vehicle's past, someone has loosened the sprocket bolt - for whatever reason, maybe doing a timing belt or to replace a seal, or whatever - and then failed to retighten it with the pulley correctly located (maybe because they didn't have the locking tools or were just a "sloppy" worker) then the timing will be wrong when you start and because you're just marking the pulleys, it'll still be wrong when you've finished. My thinking on this is that if you can be sure that you're doing the first belt change on that engine (recommended at 5 years or 75,000 miles whichever comes first) maybe look for "witness" marks on the bolt too? then it's likely that the last time the bolt was tightened was when the engine was built so you can be pretty sure it's correct. On older engines or if. for any reason you feel doubtful, I'd recommend checking if the timing tools fit before going any further. It's very simple to check. Just fit the crank locking "dumbell" with the bolts nipped up finger tight to allow a slight amount of "wiggle" room and then see if the cam locking bar slips into the back end of the camshaft. Why do I advise not fully tightening the crank tool? Well the old belt is going to be worn so a very small amount of "wiggle" may be needed to get the cam locking bar in. If the cam locking bar can't be fitted then you really need to do the full job using the locking tools and slackening and retightening the cam pulley bolt.

Phew! But you've got to buy the locking tools to check the timing so why not just do the job using the tools anyway? Well, my whole point is that the cam pulley retaining bolt can be pretty damned tight so I'd rather leave it alone if I can and if the cam pulley is correctly timed to the camshaft then you don't need to slacken it. Also, if you're keeping the car for a long time, as many of us do, as long as you've not got a cam cover oil leak then you don't need to remove the cam cover the next time you do a belt as you already know the pulley is correctly fitted so you don't need to instal the cam locking bar. This makes the job a lot quicker and, I suspect, is one reason why the garages seem to do these by marking up the pulleys.

There's also a slightly more "mystical" reason why I like doing it by the tippex method. Over the years I've done all the belt changes on the family Fiats (except of course the very old ones which do have timing marks on the cam pulley) by this "tippex" method and have not yet had to do a phonic wheel relearn! I've also asked around the wee local garages (where I'm a well known face) - these are the workshops who've told me they do them by the tippex method - and none of them have problems with subsequent need to do a relearn. I've come to the conclusion that it's when the cam pulley bolt is slackened that this procedure becomes necessary.

@earthman There's a lot on the forum about "Phonic Wheel Relearn" Do you know what I'm talking about? If you'd like my "take" on it just say.

That turned out to be a bit of a tome, sorry, but I hope it was helpful.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Just had my 14 plate done 2 months ago at an indy, p and s autos and with aux belt and cambelt kit (gates) £274.00.

Good value!

 

[The Panda Nut]

Although I like "my" Gates belts, SKF has been a very big name in bearings for as long as I can remember so I'd use one of their kits without batting an eyelid. Bet they buy the belts in though?

I just had the Gates kit replaced with Fiat parts put our 2014 on due to whining. I have had Gate son most of the cars done for the last 15 years as thats my local mans preference. He says he doesnt use them on VAG due to noise issues and wont use them on Fiats now. I did make a voluntary payment of £75 to do the swap and he sent the Gates bits back. Hope our relationship stays good. It appeared to be the tensioner that was casuing the noise so probably just one of those things just a really slight resitance noted Anyway shes done and OK now.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I just had the Gates kit replaced with Fiat parts put our 2014 on due to whining. I have had Gate son most of the cars done for the last 15 years as thats my local mans preference. He says he doesnt use them on VAG due to noise issues and wont use them on Fiats now. I did make a voluntary payment of £75 to do the swap and he sent the Gates bits back. Hope our relationship stays good. It appeared to be the tensioner that was casuing the noise so probably just one of those things just a really slight resitance noted Anyway shes done and OK now.

I think you've mentioned this elsewhere - I seem to remember reading the post.

If Becky survives the MOT test in the new year there's a number of jobs I need to do, a timing belt being one of them. I've mentioned previously that she has a slight belt noise and she's running a Gates belt right now - fitted shortly after we bought her about 5 years ago. Because of this I'm inclined to fit a different make of belt and if it makes a difference I'll be sure to post about it.

 

[earthman]

Oh yes, a crazy world indeed! Here's the Neilsen kit I bought from an ebay supplier:

View attachment 452464

View attachment 452466

The wee square tool, with two teeth, to the left of the "dumbell" crankshaft locking tool is a home made flywheel locking tool I made and doesn't come with the kit.

There are quite a number of different brands like this - Neilsen, Bergen, US Pro, and others, which look all pretty much the same and I think they are probably generically produced in China or somewhere in that part if the world, quite possibly in the same factory? I too have a number of these products and find them of more than acceptable quality for serious amateur use. I have a particularly robust set of Bergen single hex deep sockets which have withstood some pretty serious "abuse".

Keyless pulley/sprockets? When I first came across these, like you, I thought "what madness is this"! I've now encountered them on both camshaft and crankshaft installations. My Ibiza and now my Scala both have these. The first one I dismantled, on a Panda, "horrified" me. I observed the end of the camshaft is machined parallel as is the bore of the pulley/sprocket (whatever you want to call it). No taper and no locating key! "What madness is this"? I thought. Surely it's not relying simply on the retaining bolt being so tightly done up that the friction between the pulley and shaft is what's transmitting the drive? But yes, that's exactly how it does it - which explains why the bolt is so damned tight!

However, when you apply "the little grey cells" to this setup it actually makes a lot of sense. When a lot younger I built a small number of "performance" engines - the two I was most proud of was my 1275 Cooper "S" and I also helped build a big bore VW engine for a beach buggy. One of the things that's of paramount importance if the full benefit of a modified camshaft is to be fully realized is to get the timing between the cam and crankshaft set up absolutely spot on and I remember spending some hours messing about with a DTI and hand filing offset woodruff keys - like this for instance: https://beedspeed.com/products/cdi-dr-stepped-woodruff-key-for-aprilia-cdi-p-n-990918-0?currency=GBP&variant=10567353172011&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&stkn=2fe30fc951a5&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwgL-3BhDnARIsAL6KZ6-_8_1e5UHHPvBbaVNJTRmBjqHb_FPAn_I2nIARK0nAt70KV_rsQf8aAm7REALw_wcB So I could get it spot on. If you make either the crankshaft or cam shaft pulley keyless (or both, as in the case of the EA211 engine in the VAG jobbies) then all you've got to do to achieve "perfect" timing is to free the pulley retaining bolts, thus allowing the pulleys to rotate independently to the shafts, Lock up the cam and crankshaft in their exact correct positions, fit and tension the cam belt (or chain if it's chain driven) and then tighten the pulleys back onto their respective shafts. Of course you need to be extra careful that the shafts don't move in relation to their pulleys as the bolts are tightened, but, if you do it "right", the cam timing will probably be more accurately set than could possibly be achieved with a keyed setup.

getting back specifically to our wee FIRE engines and having done one this way and struggling with the tightness of the cam pulley bolt, what I found myself wondering was "why can't I do this the old tippex way by simply marking up the pulleys"? I set out to do a bit of research around the local garages. Tried the main agent first and didn't get very far. Unsurprisingly I couldn't get past the reception desk who would only say they did it as recommended by Fiat. Tried their much more helpful spares counter (who have been very helpful in the past) but they couldn't advise me on workshop practice. Tried hanging about the workshop entrance but I got some pretty hostile looks, was obviously not welcome, so beat a hasty retreat. Next I went round a number of the local wee garages where I'm a "known face" and all, very openly, said they do them by marking up the pulleys.

Ok, I'm greatly encouraged by that, but there are a couple of possible problems I can see which I'd like to check up on before defaulting to always doing it this way.

Firstly, How similar are different makes of belt? What worried me here was that there might be small but significant differences between, say, a Dayco or Gates (my normal "go to") or Continental, or whatever, belt. We used Gates belts almost exclusively at work and I'd come to deeply respect their quality - never actually known one to fail in normal service. So I rang their technical advice and had a most interesting conversation around this aspect. In essence what they said was that the belts have to be produced to identical dimensions to comply with the manufacturer's original spec so, in their opinion, dimensionally, especially in respect of length and tooth pitch, all belts must be as near identical as to make no difference. I'm happy with that and have compared different manufacturer's belts (I've got a bunch of Panda ones hanging on a nail in the garage) and I can't see any difference between them apart from the Dayco belts which are dimensionally identical but have a white colour finish on their inner toothed surface so they must be using a different material for the teeth? I've concluded that no matter which brand of belt you choose - and I'd never use a make which wasn't a well known name - it's going to be as near as makes no odds, identical to the one you're replacing. So that lays that worry to rest.

The second is that if, at some time in the vehicle's past, someone has loosened the sprocket bolt - for whatever reason, maybe doing a timing belt or to replace a seal, or whatever - and then failed to retighten it with the pulley correctly located (maybe because they didn't have the locking tools or were just a "sloppy" worker) then the timing will be wrong when you start and because you're just marking the pulleys, it'll still be wrong when you've finished. My thinking on this is that if you can be sure that you're doing the first belt change on that engine (recommended at 5 years or 75,000 miles whichever comes first) maybe look for "witness" marks on the bolt too? then it's likely that the last time the bolt was tightened was when the engine was built so you can be pretty sure it's correct. On older engines or if. for any reason you feel doubtful, I'd recommend checking if the timing tools fit before going any further. It's very simple to check. Just fit the crank locking "dumbell" with the bolts nipped up finger tight to allow a slight amount of "wiggle" room and then see if the cam locking bar slips into the back end of the camshaft. Why do I advise not fully tightening the crank tool? Well the old belt is going to be worn so a very small amount of "wiggle" may be needed to get the cam locking bar in. If the cam locking bar can't be fitted then you really need to do the full job using the locking tools and slackening and retightening the cam pulley bolt.

Phew! But you've got to buy the locking tools to check the timing so why not just do the job using the tools anyway? Well, my whole point is that the cam pulley retaining bolt can be pretty damned tight so I'd rather leave it alone if I can and if the cam pulley is correctly timed to the camshaft then you don't need to slacken it. Also, if you're keeping the car for a long time, as many of us do, as long as you've not got a cam cover oil leak then you don't need to remove the cam cover the next time you do a belt as you already know the pulley is correctly fitted so you don't need to instal the cam locking bar. This makes the job a lot quicker and, I suspect, is one reason why the garages seem to do these by marking up the pulleys.

There's also a slightly more "mystical" reason why I like doing it by the tippex method. Over the years I've done all the belt changes on the family Fiats (except of course the very old ones which do have timing marks on the cam pulley) by this "tippex" method and have not yet had to do a phonic wheel relearn! I've also asked around the wee local garages (where I'm a well known face) - these are the workshops who've told me they do them by the tippex method - and none of them have problems with subsequent need to do a relearn. I've come to the conclusion that it's when the cam pulley bolt is slackened that this procedure becomes necessary.

@earthman There's a lot on the forum about "Phonic Wheel Relearn" Do you know what I'm talking about? If you'd like my "take" on it just say.

That turned out to be a bit of a tome, sorry, but I hope it was helpful.

Another great post from yourself, all good info, like myself, I see that you have made a special tool for a specific job,....I have a lathe, milling machine and can weld, all such equipment aids in making a lot of things over the years.

I take it that Phonic Wheel Relearn is about getting the ECU to take into account the slight difference of the tightness of a new belt? Even my modern motorcycle has an ECU which needs to relearn evertime the battery is removed for example, thankfully no diagnostic machine is needed, just fire the engine up without twisting the throttle, let it warm up/fan switch on etc and it's good to go,...hopefully the Panda is similar.

My other motorcycle was built in 1983, I love the fact that it doesn't have all this electronic crap, I really don't need fly by wire throttle on a bike for example but my 2014 bike has that,...it can be a pain to work on in general but it's a great machine to ride. I'd have an 80's car too, if I could find one that's rust free and that I could afford, so much easier and cheaper to look after myself.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Another great post from yourself, all good info, like myself, I see that you have made a special tool for a specific job,....I have a lathe, milling machine and can weld, all such equipment aids in making a lot of things over the years.

Sounds like you've got a nice wee setup there, I have a "stick" welder and a MIG/MAG - and all the gas welding gear but no bottles! - however I envy you the lathe and milling machine. They would be useful for making bits for the old horticultural machines I muck about with.

I take it that Phonic Wheel Relearn is about getting the ECU to take into account the slight difference of the tightness of a new belt? Even my modern motorcycle has an ECU which needs to relearn evertime the battery is removed for example, thankfully no diagnostic machine is needed, just fire the engine up without twisting the throttle, let it warm up/fan switch on etc and it's good to go,...hopefully the Panda is similar.

My other motorcycle was built in 1983, I love the fact that it doesn't have all this electronic crap, I really don't need fly by wire throttle on a bike for example but my 2014 bike has that,...it can be a pain to work on in general but it's a great machine to ride. I'd have an 80's car too, if I could find one that's rust free and that I could afford, so much easier and cheaper to look after myself.

Phonic Wheel Relearn is something some people on here struggle with. The "Phonic Wheel" referred to is actually the segmented timing wheel on the crankshaft pulley and it's relevance is this:

On all but the older FIRE engines there is a position sensor on both the crankshaft pulley (looking at the "Phonic Wheel") and one on the camshaft. Older examples are on the "front end" of the cam cover and newer versions are on the "back end" (clutch end). Both sensors send signals to the ECU which sorts out stuff like which plug to fire and ignition timing and other stuff. The Phonic Wheel Relearn lets the ECU store the signals and records the angular relationship of one to the other. If this angular relationship changes - ie the ECU "sees" a signal from either sensor when it's not expecting it then it takes a wee fit to itself, stores the most likely code it can find in its vocabulary and lights the check engine light (MIL to some) When you check the codes you'll very likely find a misfire code stored but that's a red herring - it's just the nearest code available to the ECU which matches what it's "seeing". There are posts on here from folk who have replaced multiple components, HT leads, coils, spark plugs, etc, trying to get rid of the "misfire" when what's needed is a relearn. Assuming the belt has been properly fitted, tensioned and isn't one tooth out, you'll need a dedicated scanner - like Multiecuscan - or the dealer tool, to do a relearn. The "dead giveaway" that it's not a misfire is that when you listen to and "feel" the way it's driving you can't detect any symptoms of misfire!

It's not unusual to end up with this problem after a belt change, the amount of "error" the system can tolerate seems to be very small and, especially if the belt was done the "official" way - by slackening the cam pulley bolt - the light will often illuminate on the first open road test drive. I think this is because when the cam pulley is slackened it never retightens in absolutely exactly the same position it was in before? So far, I've not had one illuminate when done by the "tippex" method.

 

[earthman]

Sounds like you've got a nice wee setup there, I have a "stick" welder and a MIG/MAG - and all the gas welding gear but no bottles! - however I envy you the lathe and milling machine. They would be useful for making bits for the old horticultural machines I muck about with.

Phonic Wheel Relearn is something some people on here struggle with. The "Phonic Wheel" referred to is actually the segmented timing wheel on the crankshaft pulley and it's relevance is this:

On all but the older FIRE engines there is a position sensor on both the crankshaft pulley (looking at the "Phonic Wheel") and one on the camshaft. Older examples are on the "front end" of the cam cover and newer versions are on the "back end" (clutch end). Both sensors send signals to the ECU which sorts out stuff like which plug to fire and ignition timing and other stuff. The Phonic Wheel Relearn lets the ECU store the signals and records the angular relationship of one to the other. If this angular relationship changes - ie the ECU "sees" a signal from either sensor when it's not expecting it then it takes a wee fit to itself, stores the most likely code it can find in its vocabulary and lights the check engine light (MIL to some) When you check the codes you'll very likely find a misfire code stored but that's a red herring - it's just the nearest code available to the ECU which matches what it's "seeing". There are posts on here from folk who have replaced multiple components, HT leads, coils, spark plugs, etc, trying to get rid of the "misfire" when what's needed is a relearn. Assuming the belt has been properly fitted, tensioned and isn't one tooth out, you'll need a dedicated scanner - like Multiecuscan - or the dealer tool, to do a relearn. The "dead giveaway" that it's not a misfire is that when you listen to and "feel" the way it's driving you can't detect any symptoms of misfire!

It's not unusual to end up with this problem after a belt change, the amount of "error" the system can tolerate seems to be very small and, especially if the belt was done the "official" way - by slackening the cam pulley bolt - the light will often illuminate on the first open road test drive. I think this is because when the cam pulley is slackened it never retightens in absolutely exactly the same position it was in before? So far, I've not had one illuminate when done by the "tippex" method.

I only have a small lathe but it's certainly come in handy, I'd love a larger one that could take the size of a brake drum for example but garage space and the cost is the problem,....all the attachments and tooling for a lathe certainly adds up, purchasing a lathe is just the start of having no money. LOL

I've been looking at diagnostic units on and off for years now but I couldn't find one that were capable of doing everything on a Fiat and Isuzu, that and the price plus some bad reviews stopped me looking further. I'll certainly go with the tippex method when the time comes, thanks again for all the info, most interesting.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I only have a small lathe but it's certainly come in handy, I'd love a larger one that could take the size of a brake drum for example but garage space and the cost is the problem,....all the attachments and tooling for a lathe certainly adds up, purchasing a lathe is just the start of having no money. LOL

I've been looking at diagnostic units on and off for years now but I couldn't find one that were capable of doing everything on a Fiat and Isuzu, that and the price plus some bad reviews stopped me looking further. I'll certainly go with the tippex method when the time comes, thanks again for all the info, most interesting.

Just remember the "golden rule" which is: When the whole job is done (new belt fitted and engine ready to start) with spark plugs out so there is no compression, SLOWLY turn the crankshaft through two complete revolutions. If you've got it dramatically wrong a piston will come into contact with a valve and prevent the engine turning past that point. It's important to turn the crank quite slowly because if you turn it fast the flywheel will have enough stored energy to slightly bend a valve before it's stopped. Of course, if you feel resistance you need to stop immediately and investigate.

Regarding the diagnostics? If you're looking at something that's going to do more than simple OBD stuff (generic engine fault codes) then I doubt if you'll find something which will do in depth stuff on several different makes in one package. I "fiddle about" mostly with FIAT and VAG stuff so have Multiecuscan (MES) for the FIATs and VCDS (formerly VAG-COM) for the VAG stuff. I think it's hard to get better value for money than the MES package for the fIATs and VCDS does more than I could ever understand for the VAG stuff. Trouble is with newer vehicles diagnostics are becoming much more difficult because the manufacturers are introducing "gateways" which have some workarounds but some you can't.

I can strongly recommend a phone call to Gendan for info and help with all things diagnostic. Nice, helpful, knowledgeable and patient people.

 

[earthman]

Just remember the "golden rule" which is: When the whole job is done (new belt fitted and engine ready to start) with spark plugs out so there is no compression, SLOWLY turn the crankshaft through two complete revolutions. If you've got it dramatically wrong a piston will come into contact with a valve and prevent the engine turning past that point. It's important to turn the crank quite slowly because if you turn it fast the flywheel will have enough stored energy to slightly bend a valve before it's stopped. Of course, if you feel resistance you need to stop immediately and investigate.

Regarding the diagnostics? If you're looking at something that's going to do more than simple OBD stuff (generic engine fault codes) then I doubt if you'll find something which will do in depth stuff on several different makes in one package. I "fiddle about" mostly with FIAT and VAG stuff so have Multiecuscan (MES) for the FIATs and VCDS (formerly VAG-COM) for the VAG stuff. I think it's hard to get better value for money than the MES package for the fIATs and VCDS does more than I could ever understand for the VAG stuff. Trouble is with newer vehicles diagnostics are becoming much more difficult because the manufacturers are introducing "gateways" which have some workarounds but some you can't.

I can strongly recommend a phone call to Gendan for info and help with all things diagnostic. Nice, helpful, knowledgeable and patient people.

I have always gone by the golden rule yes, but this is a non interference engine I believe so in theory the pistons will not make contact with the valves no matter what. Anyone happen to experience a cam belt snap on this engine? I hope that what I've been told is true??

I don't really see the point in all these basic code readers period, if like me you have to actually solve any problem/issue, you need a high level diagnostic tool.

 

[jrkitching]

but this is a non interference engine I believe

Unfortunately this isn't the case; all 69HP 1.2 Pandas have an interference engine.

Fortunately breaking in service is almost unheard of, but you do need to be careful when changing the belt.

If you're going to try to improvise without the locking tools, at least take out the plugs and make sure all the pistons are positioned halfway down the bores before loosening or removing anything.