Technical Brakes again...

[The Panda Nut]

I have forgot which car we are talking about

Models with solid discs have

Pre 2012
11mm thick and 240mm diameter

The post 2012
12mm thick 257mm diameter

Bigger and thicker sounds like it’s for a latter car possibly

Needs double checking as post 2007 are also different part numbers for the pads in the champion catalogue

The 169 2011. I would say these were 2mm bigger radius. Maybe the last set were some cheap shite and not just bad steel but bad spec too. We must be getting on 6 months since fitting the blue print discs and they still look 100% A OK. The treated edges still look like new. 319 discs certainly wouldnt go on the 169 without all the rest of the fittin paraffin alia.... They are just as bad if not worse at rusting up. I shall chuck the discs off the 2014 car on the scrap heap before the MOT as I just couldnt be arsed to keep cleaning them up. It seems at present that a light clean with emery paper is required every 3 months to stop the rust building up. I might just try cold zinc spray on the unswept portions... one last ditch attempt to prevent throwing out parts with at least 60% of usable wear left in them. Its this waste I find so infuriating. Some say its all down to non asbestos brake pads.

Im an old fart with nothing else to do.... I shall write to some of the big brake manufacturers and see if they have any useful comments.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I think it's entirely valid to just do one when it's needed if you're doing the repair yourself and can therefore attend to the other one as soon as you see it's leaking. On the other hand it's probably best practice to do both if the car is being garage maintained. I wouldn't do this with shockabsorbers though as a weak one on one side will make the good one on the other work a bit harder. Wheel ABS sensor I'd do as you have. just needs some sensible thinking about to decide which course of action is beat.

Yep its really just a balance in cost terms of labour to do the jacking up and bleeding twice v's cost a a set of brake shoes if they get spoilt. If you do your own labour it changes things.

 

[DaveMcT]

For what it costs you might as well buy the axle set. Dd one side and then the other as time allows. You may need to heat the flare nut enough to soften the plastic coating on the metal pipe. Simply forcing the nut often ruins the pipe adding to costs and time demands.

 

[Yolanda]

I think it's entirely valid to just do one when it's needed if you're doing the repair yourself and can therefore attend to the other one as soon as you see it's leaking. On the other hand it's probably best practice to do both if the car is being garage maintained. I wouldn't do this with shockabsorbers though as a weak one on one side will make the good one on the other work a bit harder. Wheel ABS sensor I'd do as you have. just needs some sensible thinking about to decide which course of action is beat.

Absolutely When it comes to springs and shocks discs and drums I also would change in pairs.
Up to a few years ago I used to do a lot of foreigner's for regular customers. If my wheel cyl scenario would have come up I would have rang the customer and advise him/her that it would be best to change both as I probably wouldn't see the car again for 12 months.

 

[Yolanda]

Its good to know that Mercdes also suffer failure of such things and its not restricted to Fiats. Sometime it seems people think such things are immune. I fully accept that there are many components that are jsut engineered to a higher standard and the principle big parts are stronger and longer lasting. But every Mercedes owner also need a small light nippy Panda to bring smiles into their motoring life. This is a good thing!

PANDAS ON THE TOP!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Its good to know that Mercdes also suffer failure of such things and its not restricted to Fiats. Sometime it seems people think such things are immune. I fully accept that there are many components that are jsut engineered to a higher standard and the principle big parts are stronger and longer lasting. But every Mercedes owner also need a small light nippy Panda to bring smiles into their motoring life. This is a good thing!

PANDAS ON THE TOP!

As I was reading this I had a sudden flash of comprehension (if that's the right word). I suspect that a wheel speed sensor/ABS sensor (whatever you want to call it) on something like a Merc/Jag/Lexus/etc is probably about as likely - or not - to fail as a sensor on our little Fiats or any other mass produced car. I suspect a lot of these electronic parts will be built to a similar spec especially when you consider that there are only a few actual manufacturers making these things.

 

[koalar]

If one side is sticking or weeping the other side isn’t far behind

It’s unlikely a replacement part will be identical to the original

No big deal, Not too critical with ABS which will even out any variation

Last couple I changed I ordered complete sets of cylinders, springs, shoes, adjusters and so on

It’s been a few years but under £25 which was cheaper than the adjuster and shoes I needed

They come ready assembled. The whole job only takes a few minutes each side if you take the hubs off.

If it’s for an MOT I touch the bare minimum to pass then do the rest at leisure later

 

[koalar]

For what it costs you might as well buy the axle set. Dd one side and then the other as time allows. You may need to heat the flare nut enough to soften the plastic coating on the metal pipe. Simply forcing the nut often ruins the pipe adding to costs and time demands.

Or leave the nut and pipe alone and spin the cylinder off

 

[Yolanda]

As I was reading this I had a sudden flash of comprehension (if that's the right word). I suspect that a wheel speed sensor/ABS sensor (whatever you want to call it) on something like a Merc/Jag/Lexus/etc is probably about as likely - or not - to fail as a sensor on our little Fiats or any other mass produced car. I suspect a lot of these electronic parts will be built to a similar spec especially when you consider that there are only a few actual manufacturers making these things.

There's a lot of stuff from China these days. I always use MAN oil filters which I'm told supply Mercs and if I'm not mistaken there made in Poland.
For the Merc I usually get one from the main dealer, and it comes in a lovely Mercedes box, but I had a £5.00 voucher from eBay so I got one from there.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

There's a lot of stuff from China these days.

Indeed there is and, unlike a few years ago, some of it's really pretty good stuff. Unfortunately there's also quite a bit of dodgy stuff too. I buy from trusted sources like S4p, Opie oils, local trade factors and others who over the years I've come to trust. There are certain "names" I would be influenced by, like Mahle or Bosch filters, but quite a few of the "big names" I trusted from years gone by are now just bought out brand names - who knows where the contents of the box were made.

 

[The Panda Nut]

As I was reading this I had a sudden flash of comprehension (if that's the right word). I suspect that a wheel speed sensor/ABS sensor (whatever you want to call it) on something like a Merc/Jag/Lexus/etc is probably about as likely - or not - to fail as a sensor on our little Fiats or any other mass produced car. I suspect a lot of these electronic parts will be built to a similar spec especially when you consider that there are only a few actual manufacturers making these things.

Probably from teh same factory too but maybe the materials used vary. Its like cd drives a few yeats back they all came from the same factory the sound software / chips may have varied but the inside of the cd were patented and all identical.

 

[vexorg]

You'll probably find there's a handful of manufacturers for these common components, and they will not all be equal. There will be some executive in one of the car companies that thinks he's got a real bargain on ABS sensors from Hubei province in China that are less than half the price of the european built Bosch sensors.

 

[toromod]

is it cracked ?
photo 3
12 o'clock

could just be the way its photo'd

These are a couple of photos of my 04 plate 1.1 Active, changed the pads today and also wondered whether these were hairline cracks in the discs??

 

[koalar]

These are a couple of photos of my 04 plate 1.1 Active, changed the pads today and also wondered whether these were hairline cracks in the discs??

Looks a bit like the dust shadow from where the pads were

Do they scrub off

 

[toromod]

I only tried wiping off with a clean cloth - the "cracks" remained?

 

[koalar]

I only tried wiping off with a clean cloth - the "cracks" remained?

Surface micro cracks

https://www.bmwblog.com/2014/04/13/need-know-bmw-m3m4-brake-system/

Are normal and show the brakes have been load hard at some time


As long as they ring true and there are within thickness I would be concerned. However the photos aren’t great, I might change my mine with better photos

 

[toromod]

Surface micro cracks

https://www.bmwblog.com/2014/04/13/need-know-bmw-m3m4-brake-system/

Are normal and show the brakes have been load hard at some time


As long as they ring true and there are within thickness I would be concerned. However the photos aren’t great, I might change my mine with better photos

Thanks Koalar, I've had to "stand" on the brakes once or twice so they have had a few hard loads but still work fine at normal speeds!
I'll just keep an eye on them, modern pads are heavy on discs nowadays anyway.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks Koalar, I've had to "stand" on the brakes once or twice so they have had a few hard loads but still work fine at normal speeds!
I'll just keep an eye on them, modern pads are heavy on discs nowadays anyway.

I think I agree with Koalar. Looks very like the "standing" marks pads tend to leave on discs. I think if you were to check again after a good run that you'd find they are rubbed out. If you're really concerned take the disc off - you only need to undo the two carrier bolts and swing the entire caliperand carrier assembly out of the way - remove the disc from the hub and hang it up on a bit of wire. Hit it gently with a hammer/spanner/whatever and see if it "rings". A dull clunk indicates it's cracked.

Mind you your discs are a bit marginal in my opinion. They're Ok-ish right now but will be pretty rubbish by the time a new set of pads are well worn?

Here's a picture I took of my boy's Punto O/S/F brake when I was servicing it the other day:

The discs and pads were new about 5 years ago and the pads are now down to their lower limit, although the wear light has not yet illuminated. The discs themselves still have sufficient thickness to go for a while yet but there is significant lipping visible and, if you look at the top, to the left of the caliper carrier, you can see a couple of faint lines (much like yours). However I also see some strange marks which seem to be imperfections in the surface of the disc itself which I'm not all that happy with. If the disc faces were unmarked I'd probably take a chance on just fitting new pads but I don't like those "spotty" marks and as my factor has quoted £90 all in for a set of good quality discs (2012 "new Punto" with vented discs - ATE calipers) and pads, I think I'm just going to do discs and pads on both sides. Going to do a search on the internet too just for price comparison but I'm happy to pay a small price premium for the convenience and surety of buying from my friends at the local factor.

Edit. Ps. Wondering also what the inside faces of your discs look like because the insides are often more corroded than the outside faces. You can see from your second picture that there's a goodly band of corrosion around the hub which has reduced effective braking area. If the inner faces are worse than this then I'd definitely be fitting new discs.

 

[koalar]

Finally had to change the discs too thin for an MOT

Still looking good though

No special treatment just fitted dry and loose

 

[The Panda Nut]

A pair of Mintex solid discs for Panda front brakes cost £25. But your third image is the result of poor maintenance. Sticking caliper slides will not allow both pads to grip and release so the disc surface gets pitted with rust. Ultra careful driving actually needs at least as much (if not more) brake maintenance than driving with lead foot.

Neither the slider or pistons were stuck. Sliders are always cleaned and greasd as discs are serviced. These discs less than a year old. The TA is identical but at 12000 miles its not having any parts! l have cleaned its discs and flatted the pads to match on coarse emery. Daffo is getting new calipers, sliders hoses and discs this next time and we will see iif they last more than 6 months in good condition. Daugters use of the brakes is fine judging by the not heavy discolouration of the wheels with dust. May be a fraction lighter use than me. I do go a bit faster on long trips and deliberately give the brakes some work regularly. I just find rust forming on the edges of the wearing area of the discs hard to understand when the car is properly maintained, and in daily use. She does 30 to 50 milesxa day 6 days a week. The brakes are in fact given vastly more maintenance than specified. Piston movement is verified and i work them the full range of movement each time they are checked and bleed if required, fluids always done biannually. Sliders always cleaned and greased. My earlier years driving may just have avoided this due to very hard use. I do recall one mechanic's expletive when he saw my BX turbos discs which had turned blue and were on the point of disintegration due to radial cracking. Even that used to suffer rusting rear discs but nothing like the pandas. Oddly the 2014 car is way less affected. The calipers look similar to the 4x4 but its brakes get very very light use. Her indoors doesnt use brakes to an astonishing degree. The discs are however much more worn, but are still the original ones. Ditto her pads.
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