Another Dealer Quits

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Another Dealer Quits

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New Car Sales Figures

Abarth - BOTTOM - Down minus 70% YTD
Fiat - Down minus 46% in June and -17.66 YTD
Fiat - Market Share 1.00% in 2023 and 1.43% in 2022

Alfa are in a worse state!

Those numbers are not looking good. Fiat have never had a high market share compared to other general brands but the minus figures are really heavy!

I suppose the plus side is that assuming you want electric/hybrid I suspect you could drive a real hard bargain and get a good deal????
Fiat have clearly been a nightmare to deal with for years or the dealers, and now they are dead in the water, no proper Fiat products to come, and the fact that soon they will have no identity save a badge. Customers have always been enthusiasts or left field, and backed by those needing a cheap car, who have been delighted with the product once bitten and often become loyal. The Fiat twin cam developed its own cult too. They had a reasonable market position but failed to back it or develop anything to encourage follow on for a maturing owner, In future if you want a Peugeot you will probaly just buy one. Not a renadged Fiat. Now there is really nothing left for that market, and at a time when their products could still gain a strong following, had they majored on small petrol and value, they have thrown whatever was left down the toilet. Their electric products are above their pay grade. I feel that selling my newer Fiat now would be sensible, because if spares get hard to find the value will plummet. I wouldnt consider Fiat if buting new, and I dislike Peiigeot as they cheated my dad out of a lot of money in the 90's and I had CItroens until they nearly bankrupted me. Both his Peugeots were mechanical disaters and cost us both huge amounts of money. They dont know how to make a supportive seat either. No way ever again, genuinely I would revert to a bicycle first. Fiat UK seem to have been run by some really stupid and lazy people as far as I can see, hence its no suprise to see them help kill the brand. Im sure many people think there is no point in buying a new ICE car no anyway. Future very uncertain and values worrying for the fear of tax strangulation ahead and the frankly propsterous current price hikes. New sales must be collapsing and the whole market will collapse if nothing is done to help it. In the current economic circumstances people will short change their cars on servicing which will add to the dealers angst. Many people, me included , think servicing an electric car will be a con and will not service the electric cars properly, and I think thee thinngs will be money pits as a result (second hnd) with braking systems being a n=big point of failure and therfore cost. Dont mention down the line battery issues. The electric secondhand market scares me. I dont want to get imvolved in something I cant undertsand - because its entirely new. The future of transport looks gloomy if you cant afford to join the leasing club a very old classic may be the way to go if they are not banned entirely..
 
Fiat have clearly been a nightmare to deal with for years or the dealers, and now they are dead in the water, no proper Fiat products to come, and the fact that soon they will have no identity save a badge. Customers have always been enthusiasts or left field, and backed by those needing a cheap car, who have been delighted with the product once bitten and often become loyal. The Fiat twin cam developed its own cult too. They had a reasonable market position but failed to back it or develop anything to encourage follow on for a maturing owner, In future if you want a Peugeot you will probaly just buy one. Not a renadged Fiat. Now there is really nothing left for that market, and at a time when their products could still gain a strong following, had they majored on small petrol and value, they have thrown whatever was left down the toilet. Their electric products are above their pay grade. I feel that selling my newer Fiat now would be sensible, because if spares get hard to find the value will plummet. I wouldnt consider Fiat if buting new, and I dislike Peiigeot as they cheated my dad out of a lot of money in the 90's and I had CItroens until they nearly bankrupted me. Both his Peugeots were mechanical disaters and cost us both huge amounts of money. They dont know how to make a supportive seat either. No way ever again, genuinely I would revert to a bicycle first. Fiat UK seem to have been run by some really stupid and lazy people as far as I can see, hence its no suprise to see them help kill the brand. Im sure many people think there is no point in buying a new ICE car no anyway. Future very uncertain and values worrying for the fear of tax strangulation ahead and the frankly propsterous current price hikes. New sales must be collapsing and the whole market will collapse if nothing is done to help it. In the current economic circumstances people will short change their cars on servicing which will add to the dealers angst. Many people, me included , think servicing an electric car will be a con and will not service the electric cars properly, and I think thee thinngs will be money pits as a result (second hnd) with braking systems being a n=big point of failure and therfore cost. Dont mention down the line battery issues. The electric secondhand market scares me. I dont want to get imvolved in something I cant undertsand - because its entirely new. The future of transport looks gloomy if you cant afford to join the leasing club a very old classic may be the way to go if they are not banned entirely..
EVs aren’t here to stay, don’t worry. We’ve plenty of time for normal people to be bitten by dead batteries after 6 years well before the legislation kicks in.

Legislation can and will be delayed. The government doesn’t care if the car companies waste their resources and R&D. There will be plenty of companies like Toyota / Lexus / Mazda who saw through it that will still have modern innovative ICE options.
 
EVs aren’t here to stay, don’t worry. We’ve plenty of time for normal people to be bitten by dead batteries after 6 years well before the legislation kicks in.

Legislation can and will be delayed. The government doesn’t care if the car companies waste their resources and R&D. There will be plenty of companies like Toyota / Lexus / Mazda who saw through it that will still have modern innovative ICE options.
Well I hope you are right.

I guess I could stomach an EV Scooter but scooters and motorbikes? are not on the ICE hit list at the moment?

Given we have another 7 years then what I have read suggests that motorhome / commercial vans will still develop and produce their non EV and non hybrid models right up to the deadline. So why buy and EV car to travel long distances and to Europe when you can have a motorhome and serve hot drinks and snacks to pay for your holiday when travelling across Europe :)
 
Well I hope you are right.

I guess I could stomach an EV Scooter but scooters and motorbikes? are not on the ICE hit list at the moment?

Given we have another 7 years then what I have read suggests that motorhome / commercial vans will still develop and produce their non EV and non hybrid models right up to the deadline. So why buy and EV car to travel long distances and to Europe when you can have a motorhome and serve hot drinks and snacks to pay for your holiday when travelling across Europe :)
Nobody forced us on to internet, or smartphones or eating healthier. If these things are innovations or there’s a strong rational case for them then most people will slowly gravitate towards them.

What we’re headed for it another 10-20 years of diesels. By that I mean, excessive incentives and force this time to adopt them at our own expense only to later be told what most people with a basic understanding can already tell you, that they don’t help the planet, they last half as long and other than being better on emissions, maybe a bit faster to 60, that’s all.

I hope I’m right but who knows. Until we get answers to our concerns I’m not holding my breath or wasting my money on one.
 
Have known middleton service station since the early 1950s was owned by a man known as boy tubb he raced motorcycles i went to school with his 2 sons phil&john Have bought panda uno from them .at that time the sales lady was called jane . earlier this year went back to my roots and called in jane was still there and yes still got a fiat a quobo trecking mowermender
 
EVs aren’t here to stay, don’t worry. We’ve plenty of time for normal people to be bitten by dead batteries after 6 years well before the legislation kicks in.
Sadly I think they are, and fossil fuel will just price normal cars out the market. I can see diesel being banned for joe public, and needs business use to continue, and petrol being a specialiszed commodity for those of use that want to keep them as a hobby
 
Dealerships lost..
I had a double take today

Next to Williams F1 in Oxford area is a 50+ year Vauxhall dealer

A while back they had cheap fuel..less than £1.90 a litre.
I noticed as well as Vauxhall they carried Isuzu (GM JAPAN..)

Drove past today.. it was SUBARU

confused for a second ... thought it was Isuzu

It WAS and IS
the Subaru is replacing Vauxhall..!!
Proper end of an era

The Stellantis writing is obviously on the wall
 
Sadly I think they are, and fossil fuel will just price normal cars out the market. I can see diesel being banned for joe public, and needs business use to continue, and petrol being a specialiszed commodity for those of use that want to keep them as a hobby
Realistically in the next few years they will introduce euro7 regulations, which will not allow petrol or diesel only cars so the best internal combustion cars they’ll make will be hybrids, and the majority will be electric to pass euro 7.

They will not take backward steps so the March of electric cars will be taking over and 2030-35 is a very realistic time frame, really it’s just the government who will have to pull its finger out and get the grid sorted out as well as local lines and connections to houses as more people will charge at home.

It will be interesting to see what happens with diesel, I think they may continue to allow HGVs for the time being but most vans and smaller trucks could be easily replaced with electric.
 
My local dealer has switched to Lexus.

Salesman who sold me my Panda 4x4 saw the writing on the wall months ago. He showed me his notebook with a long list of loyal repeat customers who wanted a new Panda. All Fiat could offer them instead was a £30K electric 500.

Doomed.
I wonder what Fiat (FCA)'s game plan was had the Stellantis merger not happened. Maybe we'd already have electric (relatively) lower cost models of the Panda already.

Fiat doesn't seem to learn... 500, Panda - best sellers in all of Europe, nobody can outsell them Punto also a big name / best seller until some idiot decided that 0 stars were a valid safety rating. 500L, Tipo - unique bigger models with a lot of design put into them commercial failures.

Not sure how well the 500X did but there's much stiffer competition now in crossovers than 2015 and technically, if I were a buyer, it's the only model with the kit and tech I'd want without compromising.

Why don't they just nail small cars? Like the 2003 Panda. 2011 Panda is selling well to this day in Europe too. They can do it. We will buy it. And we're not a niche market. And they've shown they don't need to reinvent the wheel to do so.

I'm as pro-capitalism as anyone with a working brain, and I get that the shareholders probably wanted some dream where Fiat was the best seller in every market segment, but no company can claim that - or even close. Even VAG have to dress the same car up (and down *cough Skoda cough*) four times to achieve their great sales numbers.

But all that R&D that went into trying to sell bigger models with more appeal hasn't really worked out. We could have had an all new 500 with a proper hybrid system, say around 2017-18 and a matching Panda too. That would have bought them time and sales and new steel for dealers from then until theoretically 2035 if they want to stick to the same game plan they have of keeping the models over a decade. And the next few years to now get serious about their EV options, that timing probably also would have been acceptable given that the technology would take a bit longer to trickle down into smaller, more affordable cars like the Panda and 500.

2015 and I remember the Ford Ka+ and the Vauxhall Viva city cars coming out. Most of them had AC, even heated seats in the middle and higher trims for not much more than a Panda. Back then I remember thinking 'wow' at the value proposition. Alright so those cars lack any character but from the showroom sell, the spec list, the price comparison I'm sure they were easy to shift to customers (and being Ford / GM - they didn't need to worry about them needing a new one in three years time! haha). In all the time since then, the least Fiat could have done was throw equipment and packs and more than they have at the Panda / 500. I remember Vauxhall having the Limited Edition Corsa and a long list of trims in 2014 and I'm sure that gave genuine value to buyers (ignoring the fact it's a Corsa D) enough to make them give it some thought over the equivalent Fiesta of the time. No idea how that thing went up against the Polo from its era either. Surprised GM would have been so lazy about replacing what was once a consistent UK best seller model. Then again, in 2014 they still made new petrol cars that just about clocked 100k and considered that alright. Nobody will miss GM how we're all going to miss proper Fiat.
 
My local dealer has switched to Lexus.

Salesman who sold me my Panda 4x4 saw the writing on the wall months ago. He showed me his notebook with a long list of loyal repeat customers who wanted a new Panda. All Fiat could offer them instead was a £30K electric 500.

Doomed.
Thats quite a change. I don't suppose they will convert many Fiat customers to lexus prices.

I took a look on the Fiat website today and it definitely looks like the Panda is on the run out models now. Two special editions, no 4x4 and one generic model called a Top which is certainly not top by anyone's standards. Prices seem to have dropped a bit too. The Garmin model is the one that stands out most, but at £17k its still ludacrous for such a small car that should be about £5k less.
 
Another issue is that with modern production techniques were Fiat to decide that they were wrong to go all EV, even Hybrid, too fast and thus kill off the only lucrative part of their business they had (i.e. small cheap cars in volume) then it is now TOO LATE to turn back. Those automated production lines, especially for ICE engines will have already been diassembled, repurposed, sold off.

Only possible solution would be to use Brazil and other South American plants where they still produce non EV and non Hybrid models but then shipping costs, homologation costs etc. would probably bring the cost of the cars back up to EV cost levels.

This may be a classic example a company jumping too fast on the EV train with all their models. They could have sacrificed one model on the EV adventure to research, learn etc. using that model as an R&D, production, etc. test bench and progressed from there whilst keeping a close eye on market and technology trends as well a country by country infrastructure to support EVs

You only have to look at the UK's typical city terraced older housing, no off street parking, no garages, etc. to realise that EVs and owners are going to have issues. Then we have many houses/streets with only overhead local power distribution only designed for more traditional home power requirements.

No joined up thinking and planning IMHO.
 
Not really, all the new cars so far are coming are on CMP platform, it's built for multiple power trains.

If for whatever reason they needed to build a combustion version they can on the same line without modifications. You'll probably find they will build combustion versions of them for Brazil, India etc.

The reason FCA and their dealers were up the creek, is they spent no money on anything for a long time except niche projects or didn't support/develop things that may have actually worked and sold eg. 500 and 500x.

They developed no new products in most markets, leaving the dealers with 0 foot fall because very few wanted to buy effectively the same car for 15-20 years and needed bailing out by someone who had spent money on new tech otherwise they'd have died anyway.

Yeah they spent a tonne of money on e500..but the market for toy cars that start at 26k and run to 35k and don't have a Mini badge on them is very small indeed.
 
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Yeah they spent a tonne of money on e500..but the market for toy cars that start at 26k and run to 35k and don't have a Mini badge on them is very small indeed.
Looks like VAG are in the same predicament with its 0% offers on its EV range at the minute... Cars nobody wanted and therefore nobody are buying. Not in nearly enough numbers to make it viable yet.
 
Looks like VAG are in the same predicament with its 0% offers on its EV range at the minute... Cars nobody wanted and therefore nobody are buying. Not in nearly enough numbers to make it viable yet.

While it's amusing to watch the VW struggles at the moment, it's not really comparable, they still have a full range of combustion cars to sell.

Fiat bet the farm on the 500e and endlessly spinning off more and more expensive versions of the Abarth 595 and lost.
 
While it's amusing to watch the VW struggles at the moment, it's not really comparable, they still have a full range of combustion cars to sell.
VW are not requiring you stump up enough cash up front to buy a new car outright from anywhere else.

0% on something like the iD4 requires a deposit of about £5k which is not quite comparable to fiat's required deposit.

I actually can't find anything on Fiat's website for 0% finance, but I did find that

Fiat 500e La Prima
47 Monthly Payments
£399
Customer Cash Deposit
£6,313
Fiat e-GRANT
£3,000
Total Deposit
£9,313
Vehicle Price (OTR)
£34,195
Total Amount of Credit
£24,882
Optional Final Payment To Buy
£11,813
Total Charge For Credit
£5,684
Term Of Agreement (months)
48
Total Amount Payable
£39,878.81
APR Representative
7.9%
Excess Mileage Charge (per mile)
£0.06
Mileage Per Annum
6,000 Miles

Then over on VWs website


Volkwagen iD4 Life edition

47 Monthly Payments
£402.78
Customer Cash Deposit
£5,827.00
Retailer cash price
£38,845.00
Optional final payment
£18,920.70
Total amount payable
£38,845.00
Representative APR
0.00 % APR
Rate of interest
0.00 % fixed
Excess mileage (per mile)
9.89 p/mile
Mileage Per Annum
10,000 Miles

Now if you are someone who changes there car at the end of every PCP deal period, then not only does the VW work out cheaper, its a bigger car with quite a bit more range and more power The initial deposit is lower, the monthly repayment is more by less than the cost of a cup of coffee. The duration of the contract is shorter meaning you can get the newer model more often, and the allowed mileage is 4000miles more than on the fiat.

It is also not uncommon for VW and many other manufacturers to be doing big offers with several thousand pounds off or interest free deals, it is very uncommon for fiat to do deals of that nature.

Technically speaking fiat take a bigger deposit, give you another £3k towards the deposit, spread it out over a longer period and have a much lower annual mileage allowance and still managed to make a small car with a 200 mile range, more expensive than a better equipped SUV with a 320mile range.


Also If I had a problem with my VW then there is a dealership I can take it to for work. As this thread proves with Fiat Dealerships closing all over the country right now, there is no guarantee you will have a dealership to take the car back to if anything goes wrong.
 
If anything VWs main problem is not the finance side of it they've botched their market positioning.

If you're tech person and want all touchscreens and ridiculous gadgets, Tesla will sell you that with a better range and without the awkward Jonny Cab styling for similar money it'll also likely arrive sooner.

If you're not but you want something electric but a bit more trad, the Koreans are currently doing it better.

If you're entirely traditional and want an ice engine then you still have to cope with the in car interface from electric car in the piston cars...which is entirely at odds with everything their previous brand direction was.

But we're comparing a manufacturer that effectively is closing up shop as all but a badge due to having very poor planning to one that although successful is still dealing with the fall out of some poor decisions made in the diesel era and some other knee jerk reactions made after.
 
If anything VWs main problem is not the finance side of it they've botched their market positioning.

If you're tech person and want all touchscreens and ridiculous gadgets, Tesla will sell you that with a better range and without the awkward Jonny Cab styling for similar money it'll also likely arrive sooner.
You can go look it up but I'll tell you know that you will not get a new Tesla at these prices. The very very cheapest Model 3 is priced at over £42k and there PCP deal is nearer £500 a month with a £10K deposit, and that has a worse range than the VW

The figures above were not to make some comparison about one car being better than another but highlight yet another of Fiat's major problems which is when people are looking to switch to an electric car, their smallest cheapest model, is more expensive to own than VWs bigger more practical and with a much higher range, SUV.

If you were looking around at what electric car you could get for a certain price the VW is a much more attractive deal, as are many of the options the Koreans are currently offering.

The Fiat 600 isn't out yet but I can't see it being cheaper than the 500e and the range is only marginally better, but still about 100 miles or a third less than what everyone else is offering. Its like they are not even trying to be competitive.

Its also worth noting for VWs "botched" market positioning they have still sold many more e-Golfs iD3/iD5 cars in the UK than Fiat have shifted 500e
 
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And Yet...they aren't selling as many they wanted.

I'm not going to argue the 500e is a success, they spent far too much on a niche vehicle with 0 other plans for the platform. But how is the ID3 doing compared to say the Golf which it was apparently meant to replace?

In general terms...the 500e was always going to be a niche car, the pricing, range and footprint ensured that. The id3 and id4 are in the best selling classes of car if they didn't sell more it would be a catastrophe for VW given the billions upon billions they have spent on a factory they recently closed down early because demand doesn't warrant keeping it open.

You could argue the finance deals point to them being literally desperate to shift them..for a manufacturer with such competitive deals they don't seem to be troubling the best seller lists of late with anything other than piston cars.
 
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