Another Dealer Quits

[porta]

That's very true. Whilst we're getting mad a certain political figures of the last decade, we need to remember that some of those notable 'crazy' decisions was a rare exercise in trying to make the rest of the world realise that if not everybody is committed, what impact can we all truly make to contributing to the solution?

And also, we pay quite highly at the pump because our domestic production of oil / petrol / diesel is cut so at the end of the year we can boast we 'reduced output of fossil fuels', but that doesn't mean the demand or dependence fell. It means our importing from these countries pumping at insane rates increases, as does our import spending. These facts are swept under the rug in our publications about how green we are. The people gluing themselves to the road do so to get nonsensical commitments from politicians (which they deliver and the headlines often look great) but in reality is it actually helping to solve the problems we face?

I think there's very few 'climate deniers' out there, and I think the majority of EV critics are believers in the problems we face. I think the people labelled as 'idiots' and 'climate deniers', for the most part actually just don't believe that the 'sacrifices' we (e.g. the middle class and below) have to make to our lives unless it actually solves the problem. Before you can get into a reasonable discussion with people on this, they write you off as above, as an 'idiot' or such.

Also, some of the poorer countries in the world depending so heavily on these planet killing fuels and energy means do so because we fail to recognise that the biggest 'emergencies' affecting people today aren't the climate. It's things like sanitation and education in those nations so they can lift themselves out of needing to do planet destroying to keep the lights on and keep warm. That was us, the average working class European under 200 years ago. If we can recognise that and stop gluing ourselves to the road and ruining live sports finals, we can help way more people in our lifetime with our limited time and resources, and have more educated, healthy people on a global scale working toward the goal of how we're going to improve our impact on the planet. It's the poorer nations to blame for the majority of pollution = yes. But it's us to blame for our (and their) lack of action in any effective way because we're naive to believe that the #1 problem today is... climate change. Absolute rubbish.

It's a long term issue and it's not going away, but what we do now and the impact it has does matter. And we can't get past short-minded politicians making themselves look good at our expense, whilst we enter into the next 10-20 year phase of EVs "the saviour of the planet"... just like diesels were, right? ...

The biggest polluters are businesses, always were and always will be…
There’s a quote from an American scientist (sorry, can’t remember which) that goes ‘bottled water manufacturers are not manufacturers of water, but bottles’
The issues for many now is that ‘we’ are consumers, but largely we are told and encouraged what to consume and then blamed, or the onus put on us, to reduce what we consume whether that is energy or products

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I'm often called a climate denier, though that's not true, you can see changes in the climate, but I'm not convinced people are the cause, there's every chance things would be the same with no action or intervention of people.

I think the protesters (or whatever climate change people want to be called) jump on these single events and say "look, the world is on fire!". 10 years ago we were on rhodes and it was heat wave 42-44 deg C every day we were they, happens now and the sky is falling down.
Or when they talk of volcanoes pumping out more polutants and particles in one eruption that the whole human race then you really do wonder. The world cycles, ice ages were due to no cars. The sun controls our environment more than they want to admit.

There is a very definite correlation between human activity since the Industrial Revolution and humans burning coal and oil and the increase in world temperatures. The rate of increase is over and above any that can be seen or found looking at things that would track these things Over hundreds or thousands of years.

But equally we have had big changes In our climate they just happen much slower normally.

Weirdly volcanos are good for tackling global temperatures as one big erupt https://www.science.org/content/article/massive-volcanoes-could-cool-earth-more-warming-world

 

[vexorg]

There is a very definite correlation between human activity since the Industrial Revolution and humans burning coal and oil and the increase in world temperatures.

Silly to deny no effect, but how much is the question. Not all science is pure and for the good of mankind. I've worked in academia, and it makes you quite cynical. They all have their own agendas, and then those that will twist results to say what they want, and those who are more than will to follow because they like what it says.

 

[SB1500]

The biggest polluters are businesses, always were and always will be…
There’s a quote from an American scientist (sorry, can’t remember which) that goes ‘bottled water manufacturers are not manufacturers of water, but bottles’
The issues for many now is that ‘we’ are consumers, but largely we are told and encouraged what to consume and then blamed, or the onus put on us, to reduce what we consume whether that is energy or products

Hmm, I suppose. They are going to be on a bigger scale than individuals. And they should be accountable / made to do the best they can. But it's also important to remember that off the back of companies, is where all of our innovation and great discoveries / research for new technologies comes from - many of those energy saving / green initiatives. And thankfully, most of it benefits the planet, the companies profits and consumers. Not all cases - there are some bad apples out there of course. But I wouldn't automatically write them all off as to blame.

Also, like us, I suppose most of it is to keep the lights on, heaters hot and production going forward. Can't sell or distribute clean water in some countries without the plastic bottle as the container. Not that we all need to be buying tonnes per week when we could refill a metal bottle, but some parts of the world and situations it can be life or death / a solution to poor sanitisation.

Not very much of what we do as humans in terms of burning our fuels and using resources is done in vain. Nature is trying to kill us, all the time in every way. Whilst we depend on it, we also didn't invent cars, drugs, lightbulbs or clothes for nothing.

^ this is all just counter points, not to excuse bad, excessive and reckless business practice. But beyond money we all need companies as much as they need us and we all need the planet for survival.

Silly to deny no effect, but how much is the question. Not all science is pure and for the good of mankind. I've worked in academia, and it makes you quite cynical. They all have their own agendas, and then those that will twist results to say what they want, and those who are more than will to follow because they like what it says.

That's very true. Prior to the 90s there was no such thing as a 'climate scientist' or special subset of research into this. When it became fashionable, profitable and of interest to politicians and used how it's used today has come todays radicalised / polarised climate extremists - scaring everyday people and misleading politicians who make ill informed decisions based off of unjustifiable grim, unbalanced executive summaries of biased, half baked studies that simply ignore a bit of common sense or contrary opinions.

I'm not in academia as such but I have to say, from what I see it's going in a very bad direction. Free thinking seems to be all but gone. Wasn't it always the contrarians and the misfits that sparked the flames of some of the most criticised theories that held weight and changed how scientist and people think about some of the most complicated parts of existence today? The universities are censored and becoming discriminatory in how they admit people. They're too concerned with pass rates, grants and funding now. More so than true open thought. Most of the innovation and discoveries I'd say these days are coming from private corporations sadly (and rather obviously for competitive reasons) who don't share their findings or insight with the world how universities are supposed to

 

[SB1500]

Just thought I'd add this here, source: DEFRA / UK Gov. We should be extremely proud as a nation of the quality of our country and its atmosphere and the job our people, companies and local governments do with our tax money and spending money. Whilst humans have made a big impact since the Industrial Revolution, since we realised that in the mid 1960s, we've virtually reversed that trend by now and we continue to try to build on that. As also mentioned, we can't control what other nations do. Obviously the global atmosphere is beyond our control.

But look... the stats don't lie. You'd think those idiots gluing themselves to the road would take a look at some of these very basic, easy to find charts from one of the most obvious sources... https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...issions-of-air-pollutants-in-the-uk---summary


EDIT: One more interesting car fact in particular...
"In fact, by 2000, late-model cars emitted less pollution while running than 1970s-era cars did while turned off (large amounts of gasoline vapor leaked from old models)."

So zooming back into cars and big companies to blame? Is that honest? Because back in the times when awareness of the issue sincerely was needed to be promoted to average-Joe, car companies were still improving on the environmental factors of their models. By 2000 there was a lot of progress. Imagine now how far we've come compared to early 2000s cars (old VAG diesels come to mind...).

I hate it when people refuse to acknowledge how far we've come and how fast we're moving everyday towards being kinder on the planet. None of this is the result of government, companies or people 'not caring'.

Just Stop Oil are making normal people lose sympathy with a very important issue. Like a toddler having a tantrum and demanding sweets, it's also making a fool of itself by pretending that it's an emergency and claiming 'nobody is listening to me so I'll get louder!'. Unfortunately the real world and the stats don't support them.

 

[porta]

Just thought I'd add this here, source: DEFRA / UK Gov. We should be extremely proud as a nation of the quality of our country and its atmosphere and the job our people, companies and local governments do with our tax money and spending money. Whilst humans have made a big impact since the Industrial Revolution, since we realised that in the mid 1960s, we've virtually reversed that trend by now and we continue to try to build on that. As also mentioned, we can't control what other nations do. Obviously the global atmosphere is beyond our control.

But look... the stats don't lie. You'd think those idiots gluing themselves to the road would take a look at some of these very basic, easy to find charts from one of the most obvious sources... https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...issions-of-air-pollutants-in-the-uk---summary


EDIT: One more interesting car fact in particular...
"In fact, by 2000, late-model cars emitted less pollution while running than 1970s-era cars did while turned off (large amounts of gasoline vapor leaked from old models)."

So zooming back into cars and big companies to blame? Is that honest? Because back in the times when awareness of the issue sincerely was needed to be promoted to average-Joe, car companies were still improving on the environmental factors of their models. By 2000 there was a lot of progress. Imagine now how far we've come compared to early 2000s cars (old VAG diesels come to mind...).

I hate it when people refuse to acknowledge how far we've come and how fast we're moving everyday towards being kinder on the planet. None of this is the result of government, companies or people 'not caring'.

Just Stop Oil are making normal people lose sympathy with a very important issue. Like a toddler having a tantrum and demanding sweets, it's also making a fool of itself by pretending that it's an emergency and claiming 'nobody is listening to me so I'll get louder!'. Unfortunately the real world and the stats don't support them.

I wouldn’t quote defra for anything…and I’m a farmer, you’d be surprised what ‘we’ are allowed to get away with whether that’s dodgy fertiliser, raw sewerage (twice a year), killing badgers and raptors…as for claims about been environmental champions, it’s a g’ment body, they parrot what they’re told to parrot

 

[SB1500]

I wouldn’t quote defra for anything…and I’m a farmer, you’d be surprised what ‘we’ are allowed to get away with whether that’s dodgy fertiliser, raw sewerage (twice a year), killing badgers and raptors…as for claims about been environmental champions, it’s a g’ment body, they parrot what they’re told to parrot

There’s some countries I’d believe that about but we don’t live in one of them. Things like that would be too easy to bust these days right? And think of the media , scandal and glory you’d get as the person to reveal it.

Idk, I trust the government for better or for worse. Not perfect but probably objectively one of the best.

I know most people wouldn’t agree with me but that’s fair

 

[porta]

There’s some countries I’d believe that about but we don’t live in one of them. Things like that would be too easy to bust these days right? And think of the media , scandal and glory you’d get as the person to reveal it.

Idk, I trust the government for better or for worse. Not perfect but probably objectively one of the best.

I know most people wouldn’t agree with me but that’s fair

It’s well documented…the spreading of human effluent has made national news several times these past few years, as well as featuring on countryfile twice. There is also the uncontained run off of fertiliser into water courses making headlines. The badger cull is still going ahead despite even resistance from farmers, many now wanting inoculation over culling…and, as for raptors and other birds targeted equally well documented, especially on moors used for shooting, where, mysteriously, fires suddenly start and dead raptors turn up

 

[SB1500]

It’s well documented…the spreading of human effluent has made national news several times these past few years, as well as featuring on countryfile twice. There is also the uncontained run off of fertiliser into water courses making headlines. The badger cull is still going ahead despite even resistance from farmers, many now wanting inoculation over culling…and, as for raptors and other birds targeted equally well documented, especially on moors used for shooting, where, mysteriously, fires suddenly start and dead raptors turn up

It’s not something I have heard or know about. But doesn’t sound good at all!!!

 

[porta]

Moreover, look at the crap being dumped into our rivers and seas. As for our high welfare standards for livestock, this lot are eroding it faster than we change PMs and have signed trade deals which make it harder to sell our stuff and easier to import!
The g’ment giving out more coal, gas and oil licences and, their quite laughable excuse that we need energy security. Do they think we are THAT stupid, all energy sources are sold on the open market with firms bidding for it. The only way you get energy security is mine/drill for it, keep it and use it…basically nationalise it

 

[porta]

It’s not something I have heard or know about. But doesn’t sound good at all!!!

Been on all the national news media, TV, print, online…this g’ment has even lost the support of the NFU

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Silly to deny no effect, but how much is the question.

Interesting point, just today I read an article about exactly this, basically scientists monitoring the warming this year has shown temperatures globally above what was expected and are beginning to wonder if there is something else at play. They know human activity will have a certain amount of impact but what’s happened this year is over and above where we should be.

I know all the historic high temperatures, I remeber doing my paper round in the 90s with temperatures in the high 30s.

The temperature that really matters Is the global average temperature which reflects all the temperatures around the world.

 

[SB1500]

Been on all the national news media, TV, print, online…this g’ment has even lost the support of the NFU

I try to avoid that this last few years as much as possible! It lost its credibility after the pandemic altogether for me. Before that I just got fed up with the same old political stuff, then all the info they broadcast (and refused to broadcast) and we found out that actually a lot of what they wouldn't show wasn't as crazy or tin foiled hats as they insisted.

 

[porta]

I try to avoid that this last few years as much as possible! It lost its credibility after the pandemic altogether for me. Before that I just got fed up with the same old political stuff, then all the info they broadcast (and refused to broadcast) and we found out that actually a lot of what they wouldn't show wasn't as crazy or tin foiled hats as they insisted.

The worlds gone crazy, the trick is to just do the best you can…problem is there’s always that one barsteward that’ll stick a spanner in the works

 

[SB1500]

The worlds gone crazy, the trick is to just do the best you can…problem is there’s always that one barsteward that’ll stick a spanner in the works

That's very true.

On the topic of the dealerships, it's sad to hear of more closing. I thought any who have held out this long now should probably hold on longer as Stellantis is going to inevitably bring new cars to the market. Even if Fiat alienates all of us old fans with Peugeot derived parts, dealers should probably expect a steady flow of demand similar to Peugeot / Citroen's equivalent models. It'll be a safe sell as the 'dependability' and ease of sourcing parts is supported by a now bigger Stellantis parts network. Half of the bigger franchises can now merge their existing PSA showrooms / workshops into Fiat too and consolidate.

They've been through the worst of it in the last few years with a lack of all new / models that make current owners think twice about trading in and steals new customers away as other brands have shinier new options to catch their eyes.

still, if D&T give up their Fiat dealer, that'll leave Northern Ireland without any at all. From 4 to 1 in a few years is bad enough. They didn't even allow warranty work to be carried out at the local other brand dealerships - not sure if that's standard practice but it was a pain when I had my 2017 Panda and it needed some engine work done under warranty in 2019. But they did provide a courtesy car at least. Nobody seems to be doing that here in the franchised dealerships sadly since Covid.

 

[porta]

Is Spoticar anything to do with Stelantis as the advert seems to be only that groups car marques…even though an acquaintance of mine got a bmw from them

 

[SB1500]

Is Spoticar anything to do with Stelantis as the advert seems to be only that groups car marques…even though an acquaintance of mine got a bmw from them

Yeah it's their used car platform which merges all of the brands 'approved used' cars into one place. I reckon it's a terrible name but I'm sure it won't stop the success since the sites all lead you there.

A lot of car companies seem to be pushing closer toward buying online and dealing with them directly now.

I would actually prefer that. I think since the laws a long time ago were made to essentially force us to go via dealers were made they've made a very bad case for themselves.

• They can be too pushy and annoying at the best of times.
• If you're not planning to buy in the next weeks or months to fit their targets, they switch off completely and you feel like by enquiring about anything you're bothering them.
• The refuse to go down on price a lot and you usually find crap like "£12,200" where they'll take down the £200 but that's all as opposed to an actual deal or good price.
• They prioritise the guaranteed income buyers such as those on disability / mobility.
• They lie about the conditions of the car a lot of the time and will happily sell lemons even under the approved used guarantees
• The workshops often can't or won't investigate complex problems beyond the usual well known faults and will quote entire systems into the multi-thousands
• Some warranty people at dealerships won't even file a claim or submit a claim (and then in some cases when you do it yourself directly with the manufacturer, it's honoured - my experience with DS)
• A lot of franchised dealers to this day refuse to / don't bother keeping courtesy cars for warranty work 'because Covid' somehow
• They won't keep a car for you if you are serious about buying it in coming days
• They lie about previous owners / life of the car (had one tell me a teacher drove one, then the next day a different sales rep said "this one was owned by a bus driver, he drove it as far as the depot and that was it for years")

Honestly, if I could buy a car from Fiat or Toyota directly, even if it meant having to pay a bit to get it transported from the car carrier ship to my doorstep, I'd do it every time. Dealing with customer service directly is also much more effective than going via the dealer as it's one less person who can't be bothered to break through. Manufacturers usually know the common faults, will accept your own photos and don't argue about it. They pay for private courtesy cars and can't do enough to keep you happy. Dealers are just annoyed you've interrupted their solitaire game in my experience. And I understood that back when I was a broke student and they knew I wasn't going to buy anything new or used from them but these days a few cars in, I'm yet to see one really make an effort to try and sell me anything.

 

[vexorg]

Dealers are just annoyed you've interrupted their solitaire game in my experience.

I think it really depends on the branch staff rather than one brand or franchise.

Our dealings with Nissan have varied a lot. The branch we bought it from haven't had great customer service, yet the same dealer in the next town over has been excellent. And then there's the one in East Kilbride that should be closed for their service.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I think it really depends on the branch staff rather than one brand or franchise.

Our dealings with Nissan have varied a lot. The branch we bought it from haven't had great customer service, yet the same dealer in the next town over has been excellent. And then there's the one in East Kilbride that should be closed for their service.

When it comes to buying a car I think it depends on how you present to the dealer. I think they can tell the difference between someone who is looking to buy and some scruffy oik who is just looking to waste their time.

I have no experience of Nissan, but I have had plenty of Fiat dealership experience and they are all pretty poor. The best service I ever got from a Dealership was prior to 2011 when SAAB still existed, My aging 900 had a burst brake pipe and the only garage I could limp it too just happened to be a Main SAAB dealer.
Who changed the Pipe for the cost of the pipe, waived the labor charge and leant me a brand new 9-3 to drive about while they fixed it. Total cost at the main dealer £30 and when I picked the car up they had washed and hoovered it.

 

[vexorg]

When it comes to buying a car I think it depends on how you present to the dealer. I think they can tell the difference between someone who is looking to buy and some scruffy oik who is just looking to waste their time.

Yes, as soon as you say "parts counter" when you come in the door to the new flashy showrooms thenyou are classed as one of them. Many dont even have a parts counter now and you are lead out to some shed at the back.