Technical 500 twinair water coolant bleeding help

[zunkus]

I own a 2014 500 Twinair which I've bought new. I had issues with a cracked reservoir which was solved with a new (from ebay) expansion tank. I have had air trapped in the water system ever since though. I couldn't find any air vent plugs on this car to help me do this so resorted to fitting a water bottle on top of the reservoir so as to overfill it, start the engine with the heater on, and rev it after it got to running temperature. This seemed to solve the issue for a while but now that the outside air has gotten hotter and am using the aircon more the issue has resurfaced. I hear a gurgling and splashing sound from the passenger side (It's right-hand drive). Any help on this please?

 

[Baglady1990]

So I would have said drill out then stick a screwdriver in and unscrew it but that option is probably no longer available but might still work as the screw is probably polythene so won't glue?

Yeah had to happen in the middle of nowhere! Glue held enough for me to get home but drove with heat on to ease heat in engine it was HOT in the car
Dunno John I glued it up good with superglue so I doubt I’d get it out now .. had to bite the bullet and order a new rad …. Maybe I over tightened that screw?

 

[bugsymike]

So I would have said drill out then stick a screwdriver in and unscrew it but that option is probably no longer available but might still work as the screw is probably polythene so won't glue?

Seems a shame to buy a rad just for the bleed screw. If you heat up a wide flat blade screwdriver and are lucky you can melt a drive slot in the old broken bleeder and remove it. Let it cooI before applying pressure to the new slot, I have done it in the past.
The other thing I do is collect anything off the old rad that is of use. This came from a 2010 Doblo 1.6 MultijetYou are probably too far away and have already sorted it , I am in Torbay. Maybe a local scrapyard, as they only use the scrap rads for the aluminum.

 

[Baglady1990]

Seems a shame to buy a rad just for the bleed screw. If you heat up a wide flat blade screwdriver and are lucky you can melt a drive slot in the old broken bleeder and remove it. Let it cooI before applying pressure to the new slot, I have done it in the past.
The other thing I do is collect anything off the old rad that is of use. This came from a 2010 Doblo 1.6 MultijetYou are probably too far away and have already sorted it , I am in Torbay. Maybe a local scrapyard, as they only use the scrap rads for the aluminum.

It is!! I’ll definitely keep it once I’ve swapped it over see if I can somehow repair it
But when it comes to the cooling system I dont take any chances considering what I went through when I first got my 500 .. I learned the hard way and I really don’t want to go back there!

 

[bugsymike]

It is!! I’ll definitely keep it once I’ve swapped it over see if I can somehow repair it
But when it comes to the cooling system I dont take any chances considering what I went through when I first got my 500 .. I learned the hard way and I really don’t want to go back there!

I agree you learn from experience and the satisfaction of repairing your own vehicles gives you the understanding of how things work. Also it can give you the ability and confidence to take on repairs on all sorts of other non vehicle related things too.

 

[Baglady1990]

I agree you learn from experience and the satisfaction of repairing your own vehicles gives you the understanding of how things work. Also it can give you the ability and confidence to take on repairs on all sorts of other non vehicle related things too.

I’ve saved a lot doing my own repairs & servicing my car myself! It’s just annoying that a little plastic piece that isn’t old is responsible for so much grief I was wanting to swap out the bottom rad hose anyway.. perfect opportunity!

 

[John202020]

I’ve saved a lot doing my own repairs & servicing my car myself! It’s just annoying that a little plastic piece that isn’t old is responsible for so much grief I was wanting to swap out the bottom rad hose anyway.. perfect opportunity!

You replaced the metal water pipe? Behind the exhaust.

 

[Baglady1990]

You replaced the metal water pipe? Behind the exhaust.

No luckily it’s in very good condition! I’ve painted it in high temp paint too

 

[bugsymike]

No luckily it’s in very good condition! I’ve painted it in high temp paint too

On the plastic bleed screw, since cars went to plastic radiators some years ago I have seen more broken or jamming, I think it is plastic on plastic more prone to binding together and of course not very strong, just cheap to produce!

 

[Baglady1990]

On the plastic bleed screw, since cars went to plastic radiators some years ago I have seen more broken or jamming, I think it is plastic on plastic more prone to binding together and of course not very strong, just cheap to produce!

Your not kidding! I had the bleed screw at the rear go on me a few months back!! Same scenario…. The dam thing just fell apart but yes the rad…. The whole design screams cheap!

 

[bugsymike]

Your not kidding! I had the bleed screw at the rear go on me a few months back!! Same scenario…. The dam thing just fell apart but yes the rad…. The whole design screams cheap!

Everthing these days is built down to a price, not up to a standard, we used to call it "built in obsolescence"

 

[Baglady1990]

This is what remains of the rad top bleed screw! I found it while changing rads yesterday….. wasn’t even a year old ..was new from euro car parts and cost about £100! Interesting that the rad also started failing down the side too beside the expansion bottle were metal strip meets plastic … I hope this one lasts longer!!!
I also replaced the bottom hose as mine was original (2011) and didn’t look great

 

[vexorg]

I'd have gone for a warranty claim on it.

 

[bugsymike]

This is what remains of the rad top bleed screw! I found it while changing rads yesterday….. wasn’t even a year old ..was new from euro car parts and cost about £100! Interesting that the rad also started failing down the side too beside the expansion bottle were metal strip meets plastic … I hope this one lasts longer!!!
I also replaced the bottom hose as mine was original (2011) and didn’t look great

They are pretty flimsy, the aluminum corrodes quickly and the plastic is brittle. When I was an apprentice we used to repair the brass radiators, resolder hose connections and cracks. There were radiator repair companies who could recore them as well. Mind you I suspect they all died off due to the handling lead solder every day!
You might have got a claim if the side was leaking but they would just accuse you of overtightening the bleed screw just to throw out a claim.

 

[Baglady1990]

They are pretty flimsy, the aluminum corrodes quickly and the plastic is brittle. When I was an apprentice we used to repair the brass radiators, resolder hose connections and cracks. There were radiator repair companies who could recore them as well. Mind you I suspect they all died off due to the handling lead solder every day!
You might have got a claim if the side was leaking but they would just accuse you of overtightening the bleed screw just to throw out a claim.

In all fairness I probably did over tighten it! I don’t know my own strength sometimes… it’s prob why the rear bleed screw went on me too a few months back .. but that was a 2011 part so who knows!

 

[zunkus]

Having read all the responses its disappointing there are no replies with an answer. I have just been and looked at my Panda twinair. There is a high mounted reservoir with several pipes attached and Im assuming its similar to the 500 TA. From what I can see you are right there are no bleed points so this should be a self bleeding system. There are two small bore pipes that will we returns from the radiator top somewhere and probably the water pump that should allow the air to vent into the header reservoir. A dealer would probably pressurise the header with compressed air kit which would push the water level and force any trapped air out of the ses small pipes. As the header reservoir is higher than the radiator there should not be a bleeding issue. My crude way of pressurising the water system on ourPandas is to take the cap off and blow as har as I can into the header, and it does work if you can maintain decent pressure for 20 or 30 seconds, BUT ANTI FREEZE IS POISNOUS so its not without risk. Also try doing the hoze squeeze if you are able to get to a top or bottom hose. With the engine running at fast idle and the reservoir cap removed squeeze the hose had and violently to push water back to the reservoir bottle. You may need to do this with some vigour for a few minutes. Also try removing the filler cap and running the engine at around 3000 rpm for 3 or four minutes at a constant speed which may also eventually allow the air out.

Always check the level after any fiddling and top up if required.

Self bleeding systems do work. I fitted a new radiator to our Seat and all that was required was to fill it up. Sloshing sounds are also possible from watter trapped in the scuttle under the wipers. Its a big Panda issue but affects any car if the drain holes are blocked.

Final thought. Run the car up to temperature and check that no hoses are showing signs of inflation as this could be a head gasket issue.

I took the car to the Fiat dealer to have it looked by their mechanics since they’re trained on said car. The only thing they did was replace the reservoir cap saying it was faulty. The car doesn’t do the splashing sound when reved by as soon as I switched on the ac and turned the fan on full cool the splashing came back again when the car is reved. Very strange. The thing with official dealer garages these days is that they don’t let you in to talk with the mechanic. It’s a new policy thing. I only want to explain directly the problem instead of going through a third person.

 

[bugsymike]

I took the car to the Fiat dealer to have it looked by their mechanics since they’re trained on said car. The only thing they did was replace the reservoir cap saying it was faulty. The car doesn’t do the splashing sound when reved by as soon as I switched on the ac and turned the fan on full cool the splashing came back again when the car is reved. Very strange. The thing with official dealer garages these days is that they don’t let you in to talk with the mechanic. It’s a new policy thing. I only want to explain directly the problem instead of going through a third person.

 

[bugsymike]

Re strong baglady I suspect most of us have overtightened something at some time or other. There used to be a joke in the trade "How tight do you do this nut?.... Strip the threads and back half a turn!"
It's all about image at most new car dealerships, zunkas, they don't want some oily mechanic coming to talk to you and ruin the impression of sleek shiny perfection. Passing your question or instruction on to the workshop via a receptionist who has no specific knowledge is open to misunderstanding, plus every job the mechanic is given has a time allotted to it, so in a lot of cases they just do the main jobs they are told to do or they risk getting into trouble for being too slow. Before I retired, having my own workshop I was able to deal direct with my customers and discuss exactly what the problem was to better identify it, this resulting in them having confidence in me, with some of them staying with me for over 40 years. So whether male or female, I would talk to them the same, including taking the "micky" sometimes. However at the end of the day I knew their cheques were not going to bounce and they knew they were getting a good job, even though it meant I will not die a rich man!

 

[Ralf S.]

Self-bleeding systems like the TA should be simple to bleed. You just fill the reservoir up to the MAX line, start the engine, let it idle for about 2 minutes with the heater turned to MAX (heat setting).

• If the heater matrix is always "open" and the heat setting only opens vent to let air through the matrix to be heated, then even this step isn't necessary.
• If the heater setting opens a valve to let hot coolant into the matrix, then it is.

When the level in the reservoir initially drops, just top it up to "MAX" again and put the cap on.

When it cools down a bit, top it back up to MAX and Robert is your mother's brother.

If there is air in the system it should purge to the reservoir. There's no way it can't... since the cooling system is pressurised and the reservoir has a pressure cap (1.2 or 1.4 bar) which is always lower pressure than the block.

If there's a gurgle then it reminds me of when the head gasket packed up on my old Alfa 155. That was blowing gas into the coolant and the gas was collecting in the radiator as well as the heater matrix. Although the heater continually purged, the radiatore didn't.

Next time the engine is warm, test the hoses by squeezing them with your fingers. You should feel/hear the coolant moving as you squish the hose. If the hose is "hard" then it's got pressure in it (not good).

Also test the radiator. If you can see an exposed bit of radiatore inside the engine compartment, feel up the bottom of the rad' (don't stick your fingers/hair/jewellery/silk cravat etc. into the fan, in case it chooses that moment to switch on). The rad will probably be hot to touch. Compare the bottom with the top. If the top of the rad' is cold when the bottom is hot, then that's also not good.

If the engine is running and you see little spurts or pulses of coolant cycling into the reservoir, then that is normal. The level is always above MAX when it's hot.. that's why the MAX line is halfway down the reservoir, so don't worry about that.. but obviously don't be tempted to overfill it.

You can "pressurise" the reservoir manually by (as above) cupping your lips on it and blowing into it... but anti-freeze is the most toxic thing on your car to the extent it's better to drink engine oil rather than the coolant.. so don't get any near your hands or face. You can try sticking a kiddies balloon into the cold reservoir and inflating that... (never tried it.. but it sounds a good idea) but as above, if you just start the engine the pump should be cycling the water round anyway (which you will see as an initial level drop, if the system has just been filled).



Ralf S.

 

[John202020]

I took the car to the Fiat dealer to have it looked by their mechanics since they’re trained on said car. The only thing they did was replace the reservoir cap saying it was faulty. The car doesn’t do the splashing sound when reved by as soon as I switched on the ac and turned the fan on full cool the splashing came back again when the car is reved. Very strange. The thing with official dealer garages these days is that they don’t let you in to talk with the mechanic. It’s a new policy thing. I only want to explain directly the problem instead of going through a third person.

Is it possible the ac needs re gassing?

 

[chris3234]

I'd have gone for a warranty claim on it.

For most warranty claims on car parts they need to be installed by a vat registed garage and euros are known for trying to get out of paying