Technical 1978 124 Project

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Technical 1978 124 Project

I always knock out any dents, but depending on their 'sharpness' I might heat the metal to a red heat to make it easier and avoid possibly provoking a split in the metal. (iirc the metal is thicker than a body panel so needs more 'persuasion. Check the drain plug thread is fit to fit for purpose, check there are no cracks in the threaded ring that is welded to the oil pan and that it's not loose. Check and if necessary, dress flat any distortion on the oil pan gasket flange - do not over-tighten this gasket when refitting the oil pan. If all is now well, clean (including the inside) and repaint (the outside only).

Valves, hard to say. Need more cleaning, scrape off as much of the carbon, then either finish on a wire wheel on a bench grinder/angle grinder/electric drill. I always keep valve, springs, caps, retainers etc. and cam followers/shims etc. segregated so they can be refitted in their original locations.
One quick way to clean/polish valve head is to hold them in a drill chuck (a bench drill is best) and clean them by holding a strip of emery cloth/abrasive paper against them while they're revolving.
Check there is no ridge/step on the valve stem where it's travel in the guide ends.
Check there is no splitting/cracking evident on the very edge of the valve head,
Check the edge of the valve head isn't like a 'knife-edge' due to wear or overgrinding/lapping-in, it should be a minimum of 2?mm at the periphery for durability.

To check valve guides, place the valve partially back into it's guide, place your finger over the top of the valve guide and pull out the valve - if there is a 'pop' sound, the valve to guide clearance is fine. Some would place the valve back into it's guide, open it by c. 9mm and try rocking the valve face - there is a measurement in the manuals, You'll like find more 'play' in the exhaust valve guides but this normal.

If both the valves and guides have checked out ok, try lapping in the valves using a fine grinding paste to check for good contact all around and correct seating width (need more on the exhaust valves compared to the intake valves). Don't try to lap all valves in fully at first, just a quick lapping on each valve to see if it's fit for further service.
The carbon build up on the back of the intake valves looks normal, some build-up is caused by crankcase oil fumes being drawn in on cars that have this emissions feature, or else it could be oil being drawn down the valve guides over along period of service if guides and valves are in decent condition, just fit new valve stem oil seals upon reassembly.

Any missing manifold studs should be replaced by studs not bolts (bolts tend to pull the threads in the head, especially on the exhaust side).

Re; No. 4 spark plug in an earlier pic. Yuck!, I don't know what happened to it, as combustion chamber, valves and piston crown look normal on No. 4 cyl.
I would definitely check the spark plug thread on No. 4 cylinder and if in any doubt, would have an insert (Helicoil or similar) fitted. This No. 4 plug thread is very difficult to do with the head in situ in the car, so I'd do it while the head is off. There are various DIY type thread insert kits available so you can do the job at home and save money.

The above are just my suggestions of how you might proceed (and make progress!!), based on my experience working on these engines. (and none of the engines I've worked on has ever gone wrong...). Others may disagree, rubbish my advise and encourage you to spend lots of your money...

If you intend removing the pistons, it might be helpful to scrape any ring of carbon build-up from the top of the cylinder bores, makes piston removal easier. There should be no need to mark anything, the con rods should have their cylinder numbers stamped on the side of the rod bearing cap/rod, these numbers face the exhaust side of the engine and the piston only fit one way - larger valve cut-out pocket towards the intake side of the engine.

Ime, there are 3 issues on these engine that often result in the engine being, perhaps, unnecessarily rebuilt -
Piston oil control ring sticking or it's drainage holes/slots becoming gummed up (often due to insufficient frequency of oil changes or having been laid-up for a long time.
Valve stem oil seal hardening due to old age, possibly including a lengthy lay-up period.
Owner neglect... especially lack of regular oil changes or ignoring signs of engine overheating.
 
Okay here’s today’s update:
1) oil pan. It’s got some dings in it but nothing that impedes the oil flow / pump. Leave it alone?
View attachment 463896

2) Cylinder head and valves. I procured a spring compressor and removed the intake valves. They all are black and crusty with buildup on the top, and caked a bit with burnt on business on the hot side. I soaked them for an hour in chem dip, rinsed and wiped a bit - some came off; perhaps more will with another round.

Salvageable or should I just go ahead and buy a new set? BTW valve guides seem smooth at first inspection…

View attachment 463897

View attachment 463898
All looks pretty normal
What matters most is valve guide wear, if the valve stems are at all sloppy in the guides you need new guides
The valves can be cleaned up. Spin them up in a drill chuck and use emery paper, possibly a blade. The valves material is pretty hard but dont go too mad
Check the valve seats for cracks, craters etc
A crude way to get an idea is to put the valves back in and with the head upside down pour some diesel or kerosene into each chamber and see how long it takes to drain
Ideally you should have done a compression test and pressurisation/leak down test to establish condition before the teardown
Oil pump again ideally should have done a test on oil pressure to assess.
You can measure wear if you have a manual with the specs and the kit to do it, but its a lot easier to fit a pressure guage and crank the engine over!
Most engine components have detail dimensions and tolerances, unless complete toast there isn’t much you can infer from photos.
 
I always knock out any dents, but depending on their 'sharpness' I might heat the metal to a red heat to make it easier and avoid possibly provoking a split in the metal. (iirc the metal is thicker than a body panel so needs more 'persuasion. Check the drain plug thread is fit to fit for purpose, check there are no cracks in the threaded ring that is welded to the oil pan and that it's not loose. Check and if necessary, dress flat any distortion on the oil pan gasket flange - do not over-tighten this gasket when refitting the oil pan. If all is now well, clean (including the inside) and repaint (the outside only).

Valves, hard to say. Need more cleaning, scrape off as much of the carbon, then either finish on a wire wheel on a bench grinder/angle grinder/electric drill. I always keep valve, springs, caps, retainers etc. and cam followers/shims etc. segregated so they can be refitted in their original locations.
One quick way to clean/polish valve head is to hold them in a drill chuck (a bench drill is best) and clean them by holding a strip of emery cloth/abrasive paper against them while they're revolving.
Check there is no ridge/step on the valve stem where it's travel in the guide ends.
Check there is no splitting/cracking evident on the very edge of the valve head,
Check the edge of the valve head isn't like a 'knife-edge' due to wear or overgrinding/lapping-in, it should be a minimum of 2?mm at the periphery for durability.

To check valve guides, place the valve partially back into it's guide, place your finger over the top of the valve guide and pull out the valve - if there is a 'pop' sound, the valve to guide clearance is fine. Some would place the valve back into it's guide, open it by c. 9mm and try rocking the valve face - there is a measurement in the manuals, You'll like find more 'play' in the exhaust valve guides but this normal.

If both the valves and guides have checked out ok, try lapping in the valves using a fine grinding paste to check for good contact all around and correct seating width (need more on the exhaust valves compared to the intake valves). Don't try to lap all valves in fully at first, just a quick lapping on each valve to see if it's fit for further service.
The carbon build up on the back of the intake valves looks normal, some build-up is caused by crankcase oil fumes being drawn in on cars that have this emissions feature, or else it could be oil being drawn down the valve guides over along period of service if guides and valves are in decent condition, just fit new valve stem oil seals upon reassembly.

Any missing manifold studs should be replaced by studs not bolts (bolts tend to pull the threads in the head, especially on the exhaust side).

Re; No. 4 spark plug in an earlier pic. Yuck!, I don't know what happened to it, as combustion chamber, valves and piston crown look normal on No. 4 cyl.
I would definitely check the spark plug thread on No. 4 cylinder and if in any doubt, would have an insert (Helicoil or similar) fitted. This No. 4 plug thread is very difficult to do with the head in situ in the car, so I'd do it while the head is off. There are various DIY type thread insert kits available so you can do the job at home and save money.

The above are just my suggestions of how you might proceed (and make progress!!), based on my experience working on these engines. (and none of the engines I've worked on has ever gone wrong...). Others may disagree, rubbish my advise and encourage you to spend lots of your money...

If you intend removing the pistons, it might be helpful to scrape any ring of carbon build-up from the top of the cylinder bores, makes piston removal easier. There should be no need to mark anything, the con rods should have their cylinder numbers stamped on the side of the rod bearing cap/rod, these numbers face the exhaust side of the engine and the piston only fit one way - larger valve cut-out pocket towards the intake side of the engine.

Ime, there are 3 issues on these engine that often result in the engine being, perhaps, unnecessarily rebuilt -
Piston oil control ring sticking or it's drainage holes/slots becoming gummed up (often due to insufficient frequency of oil changes or having been laid-up for a long time.
Valve stem oil seal hardening due to old age, possibly including a lengthy lay-up period.
Owner neglect... especially lack of regular oil changes or ignoring signs of engine overheating.
Marvelous. Thank you! I will proceed. I took out the exhaust valves this morning - they are in better shape than the intake. I do suspect that the car spent too long idle and without proper maintenance intervals. However, so far the valve guides seem to be sliding fine - I'll do the testing you mention. I'll check for helicoil need for #4 - I did that once a LONG time ago on a VW engine. I'll post an update once I get things properly cleaned and assessed. Oh and yes I'll pull the pistons as I'm already this deep. Want to check the condition of the rings....
 
All looks pretty normal
What matters most is valve guide wear, if the valve stems are at all sloppy in the guides you need new guides
The valves can be cleaned up. Spin them up in a drill chuck and use emery paper, possibly a blade. The valves material is pretty hard but dont go too mad
Check the valve seats for cracks, craters etc
A crude way to get an idea is to put the valves back in and with the head upside down pour some diesel or kerosene into each chamber and see how long it takes to drain
Ideally you should have done a compression test and pressurisation/leak down test to establish condition before the teardown
Oil pump again ideally should have done a test on oil pressure to assess.
You can measure wear if you have a manual with the specs and the kit to do it, but its a lot easier to fit a pressure guage and crank the engine over!
Most engine components have detail dimensions and tolerances, unless complete toast there isn’t much you can infer from photos.
Thanks, @Twink80 - Yes, I was too bothered to try and get a battery to do a compression test, or even try to roll it over manually and do one. More soon~!
 
Thanks, @Twink80 - Yes, I was too bothered to try and get a battery to do a compression test, or even try to roll it over manually and do one. More soon~!
Is there a point to pulling your engine apart?
Are you just checking it?
Are you going to refurb it?
Are you going to upgrade it?
You will start down the road of potentially spending a lot of money. 💰 If the condition seems visually ok why not put it back together and see how it runs?
There is a fair but to do on the rest of the car and its easy enough to pull the engine once you have figured what you want to do to it.
Hiw far are you going with the rest of the car?
I’m sure you have a plan, just being devils advocate as there are quite a few cars taken to bits which then become overwhelming! I have done my car in fits and starts over about 15 years!
Originally I wanted it mechanically as good as it left the factory. Then I upgraded the engine, then I did the interior so it was a nice place to be (beige plastic binned for black leather). I did rattle can the bodywork a few years back and sprayed the beige hood black with rattle can vinyl paint. This winter it was time for a serious bodywork update a new hood (the original 45yr old is still on the car) and some 7ins wide wheels
I also want to get done in the next month as summer is on its way!!
Over the period I have enjoyed driving the car but its never going to have the dynamics of a modern car, its a different but great driving experience on dry sunny days!
 
Your making great progress!, you might consider a $6 magnetic drain plug to replace your original...looks exactly like the one on mine I just replaced...looks like it got the vice grip treatment because many don't have an allen that Size, the new ones use a socket. Think I got mine at vicks.
 
Is there a point to pulling your engine apart?
Are you just checking it?
Are you going to refurb it?
Are you going to upgrade it?
You will start down the road of potentially spending a lot of money. 💰 If the condition seems visually ok why not put it back together and see how it runs?
There is a fair but to do on the rest of the car and its easy enough to pull the engine once you have figured what you want to do to it.
Hiw far are you going with the rest of the car?
I’m sure you have a plan, just being devils advocate as there are quite a few cars taken to bits which then become overwhelming! I have done my car in fits and starts over about 15 years!
Originally I wanted it mechanically as good as it left the factory. Then I upgraded the engine, then I did the interior so it was a nice place to be (beige plastic binned for black leather). I did rattle can the bodywork a few years back and sprayed the beige hood black with rattle can vinyl paint. This winter it was time for a serious bodywork update a new hood (the original 45yr old is still on the car) and some 7ins wide wheels
I also want to get done in the next month as summer is on its way!!
Over the period I have enjoyed driving the car but its never going to have the dynamics of a modern car, its a different but great driving experience on dry sunny days!
All good questions! Context: I’m fairly recently retired. So - no rush. Secondly, I like fixing things, and I do tend with cars to want the a) brakes and tires then b) engine / trans to be in *very fine* working order. I’m not interested in restoring cars to showroom. I’m not interested in racing - I’ve done that for a number of years and had fun. So no crazy mods - just stock with maybe some nice amendments. Not unlike your approach at all!

I’ll add my next update which will show some issues that make me glad I’ve taken the engine apart.
 
Update: #4 cylinder reveals new info:
IMG_7923.jpeg

Yikes. Looks like something banged around in there?

Also - will need helicoil for the plug:

IMG_7922.jpeg

And finally - 3 rounds of work on the intake valves and they are looking better. Thanks for the tips on using the drill / emory cloth. Still some buildup on the hot side to contend with before moving on to lapping.
IMG_7921.jpeg
 
Update: #4 cylinder reveals new info:
View attachment 463959
Yikes. Looks like something banged around in there?

Also - will need helicoil for the plug:

View attachment 463960
And finally - 3 rounds of work on the intake valves and they are looking better. Thanks for the tips on using the drill / emory cloth. Still some buildup on the hot side to contend with before moving on to lapping.
View attachment 463961
If you have a lot of parts to clean thus product Elbow Grease is really good. Its a household cleaner but does a superb job with engine parts etc. In the UK you can buy it in ASDA / Wallmart at about £1.20 a bottle vs “engine degreaser” at £10+
Also if you have access to an old dishwasher that still works they make fantastic parts cleaners too.
 

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All good questions! Context: I’m fairly recently retired. So - no rush. Secondly, I like fixing things, and I do tend with cars to want the a) brakes and tires then b) engine / trans to be in *very fine* working order. I’m not interested in restoring cars to showroom. I’m not interested in racing - I’ve done that for a number of years and had fun. So no crazy mods - just stock with maybe some nice amendments. Not unlike your approach at all!

I’ll add my next update which will show some issues that make me glad I’ve taken the engine apart.
In terms of updates keep an eye on ebay for some leather seats. There are a number of cars that would fit and would look correct. I think the new Mini should be easily available in the US, I got a complete leather interior for £35 a few years back but only wanted the front seats.
Mazda Miata may also fit but the seatbacks are quite high with an integrated headrest
I also bought off the roll automotive carpet with a sound deadening backing. Its not too difficult to install and you can hide most of the joints. It is about 10mm thick so you can join with hot glue from a gun.
 
Update du jour. some good news. Some not so good. Good news! Was able to successfully repair the spark plug hole for #4 cylinder.

Also good news - first round of cleaning the pistons leave me thinking that I can keep them and their rings.

Bad news. 4 rounds of chem dip, wire brush, cleaners, razor blade, 0000 steel wool and the valves just don’t look like I want to use them again. This is intake and exhaust from #3, and is not the worst of them.

IMG_7938.jpeg

IMG_7937.jpeg
 
Well done for fixing the No. 4 plug thread.

Re - your 'bad news'

You not trying hard enough!
Razor blades and 0000 wire wool? - Too gentle.

Wearing eye protection, chip the heavy lumps of carbon from the valve heads, e.g. using an old screwdriver, old decorator's scraper/putty knife. Recalcitrant lumps of carbon can be despatched using a judiciously applied gentle tap from a small (pick) hammer or similar. Then either mount each valve stem in a drill chuck and press emery cloth against the valve head to remove any remaining carbon or/ use a wire wheel on a bench grinder to clean off any carbon (be careful doing this...).

I noticed deep parallel scratch marks on the inlet valve shown in post #128, as if the valves had been cleaned on a sanding/linishing belt - my way of cleaning, using emery cloth, will leave a nice smooth very clean surface (almost as good as new). They're not going to stay clean for very long once back in the engine.

When decarbonising the combustion chambers in the cyl. head, refit the valves to protect the valve seats, scrape of any heavy carbon deposits by careful use of an old blunt screwdriver, clean remainder of carbon using a wire brush in an electric drill and if you wish, you can finish off with some wire wool (0000 is possibly? too gentle). I'm not a fan of mirror-polishing the combustion chambers or the cyl. head ports on an engine to be used on the road.
I usually just clean the ports using an electric/air drill with a wire brush attachment on road going engines.

Your valves look fine to me - as far as I can tell from your pics.
Bear this in mind - those valves seemed to have be performing just fine (going by your pics of the combustion chambers and piston crowns) before you stripped this engine and will likely work even better having been decoked and lapped-in....

One thing I meant to mention - when you removed the cylinder head, did you notice and save the 2 small locating dowels that locate the cylinder head and gasket onto the cyl. block? (sometimes they remain in the block, sometimes in the head, but if they remain in the head gasket they might not be noticed and are then discarded). These dowels are, iirc, approx. 8mm diameter, one fits in the front left corner of the cyl. block ,the other goes in the right rear corner, when looking at the front of the engine.
I've seen these locating dowels being left out on engines being reassembled in various YouTube videos, I've also seen other 'mistakes' being made...


 
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Update du jour. some good news. Some not so good. Good news! Was able to successfully repair the spark plug hole for #4 cylinder.

Also good news - first round of cleaning the pistons leave me thinking that I can keep them and their rings.

Bad news. 4 rounds of chem dip, wire brush, cleaners, razor blade, 0000 steel wool and the valves just don’t look like I want to use them again. This is intake and exhaust from #3, and is not the worst of them.

View attachment 464117
View attachment 464118
As per my earlier comment the fit of the part is more important than the surface crud. Piston rings need to be sized to the corresponding bore, there are limits and specs for this in a good manual
Relapping the valves will help but if the guides are worn and the stem seals have hardened its still going to pull oil through and smoke (the cam boxes are flooded with oil when running, there is a weir system to maintain level)
If the rings are worn (even if they look ok) the compression will be lower, you will get more blow by past the rings and a lot of oil mist out the crankcase breather

I guess your going for a quick clean up,visual inspection then rebuild and see how it goes?
This would seem a sensible approach to get the engine back together then see hiw it performs. Unless the engine is complete toast most drivers wont notice say 10hp loss unless you drive back to back with another Spider.
Speaking of which I have a mate locally with a Spider and last year we swapped cars for a short drive. It was amazing how different the two cars were! They have both been rebuilt but with different objectives in mind. So if you ever get chance to swap cars for a drive grab it!!
 
As per my earlier comment the fit of the part is more important than the surface crud. Piston rings need to be sized to the corresponding bore, there are limits and specs for this in a good manual
Relapping the valves will help but if the guides are worn and the stem seals have hardened its still going to pull oil through and smoke (the cam boxes are flooded with oil when running, there is a weir system to maintain level)
If the rings are worn (even if they look ok) the compression will be lower, you will get more blow by past the rings and a lot of oil mist out the crankcase breather

I guess your going for a quick clean up,visual inspection then rebuild and see how it goes?
This would seem a sensible approach to get the engine back together then see hiw it performs. Unless the engine is complete toast most drivers wont notice say 10hp loss unless you drive back to back with another Spider.
Speaking of which I have a mate locally with a Spider and last year we swapped cars for a short drive. It was amazing how different the two cars were! They have both been rebuilt but with different objectives in mind. So if you ever get chance to swap cars for a drive grab it!!
I will get there one day! For the moment I’m wrestling with decisions on cleaning / fixing vs replacing parts. See next post.
 
Well done for fixing the No. 4 plug thread.

Re - your 'bad news'

You not trying hard enough!
Razor blades and 0000 wire wool? - Too gentle.

Wearing eye protection, chip the heavy lumps of carbon from the valve heads, e.g. using an old screwdriver, old decorator's scraper/putty knife. Recalcitrant lumps of carbon can be despatched using a judiciously applied gentle tap from a small (pick) hammer or similar. Then either mount each valve stem in a drill chuck and press emery cloth against the valve head to remove any remaining carbon or/ use a wire wheel on a bench grinder to clean off any carbon (be careful doing this...).

I noticed deep parallel scratch marks on the inlet valve shown in post #128, as if the valves had been cleaned on a sanding/linishing belt - my way of cleaning, using emery cloth, will leave a nice smooth very clean surface (almost as good as new). They're not going to stay clean for very long once back in the engine.

When decarbonising the combustion chambers in the cyl. head, refit the valves to protect the valve seats, scrape of any heavy carbon deposits by careful use of an old blunt screwdriver, clean remainder of carbon using a wire brush in an electric drill and if you wish, you can finish off with some wire wool (0000 is possibly? too gentle). I'm not a fan of mirror-polishing the combustion chambers or the cyl. head ports on an engine to be used on the road.
I usually just clean the ports using an electric/air drill with a wire brush attachment on road going engines.

Your valves look fine to me - as far as I can tell from your pics.
Bear this in mind - those valves seemed to have be performing just fine (going by your pics of the combustion chambers and piston crowns) before you stripped this engine and will likely work even better having been decoked and lapped-in....

One thing I meant to mention - when you removed the cylinder head, did you notice and save the 2 small locating dowels that locate the cylinder head and gasket onto the cyl. block? (sometimes they remain in the block, sometimes in the head, but if they remain in the head gasket they might not be noticed and are then discarded). These dowels are, iirc, approx. 8mm diameter, one fits in the front left corner of the cyl. block ,the other goes in the right rear corner, when looking at the front of the engine.
I've seen these locating dowels being left out on engines being reassembled in various YouTube videos, I've also seen other 'mistakes' being made...


Hey @124BC1 - thanks, and yes I spotted and saved the little dowels on the head gasket. I did some of your suggested approaches on the head with a blunt screwdriver and some steel wool and that really helped. I think the various openings (save the valves) are in good shape - especially since today was a cleaning day and I got the pressure washer focused on the coolant ports and wow the cascades of chunky orange water that came out - for a long time! I used the pressure washer on the block (focused on the water ports) and feel much better about that aspect.

However…. (Next post)
 
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So today was a cleaning day and I spent a lot of time on the large and small parts. I’m pretty much ready for big decisions and reassembly.
Decision: this #4 piston and cylinder have me worried. There is a noticeable gouge on the top edge of the piston, matching a couple of verticals in the cylinder. Given all the scarring from what must have been a fantastic-sounding incident, I’m leaning towards committing what would have been budget for interior to the engine to procure new pistons and rings, and hone the cylinders.

Bonus consideration- if I were to procure new valves, I assume i should get new guides too…
 
View attachment 464227
View attachment 464228
View attachment 464229
So today was a cleaning day and I spent a lot of time on the large and small parts. I’m pretty much ready for big decisions and reassembly.
Decision: this #4 piston and cylinder have me worried. There is a noticeable gouge on the top edge of the piston, matching a couple of verticals in the cylinder. Given all the scarring from what must have been a fantastic-sounding incident, I’m leaning towards committing what would have been budget for interior to the engine to procure new pistons and rings, and hone the cylinders.

Bonus consideration- if I were to procure new valves, I assume i should get new guides too…
Unless you measure the various components I would just reassemble with minimum spend
You can hone the bores lightly with a drill mounted tool
The piston can be lightly sanded flat again. The projections will cause hot spots and pre ignition.
Unless you measure stuff you will potentially throw money at components, which may not need replacing, with little or no discernible benefit
The engine has to be understood and the issues addressed. For example if the bores or rings are worn replacing the valves wont fix the problem.
If the pistons and rings are ok then lapping the valves should restore good compression, but if the guides and stem seals are worn it will pull oil through, run smokey and blow through the crankcase breather.
If you are going to buy new parts why not buy higher compression pistons if the price is similar, why not search out a better performing head (valves and port sizes are bigger on other twin cam applications)

You haven’t pulled the bottom end yet, the mains and big ends will likely want replacing on a high mileage motor
The oil pump performance needs to be checked or all the shiney new parts won’t last very long with low oil pressure

So there are a lot of inter related issues in the engine, that why I suggested a low cost Reassembly using existing bits then properly assess the performance and measure the key things that affect it.

Reassembling will give you more experience and you will have more knowledge the next time before you spend a big chunk of cash! Good luck whichever way you go.
 
IMG_7944.jpeg

Update: thanks for the encouragement folks. This is after a first pass with the hone. I’m going to run a finer stone next (once I get them) but cylinder walls are looking and feeling smoother. I also gently filed the high spots from the damaged areas from #4 piston and head surfaces.
 
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