General Top Gear and more.

[loveshandbags]

I'd like to say that I'm really enjoying this thread especially with the sheer technical know how from yourself J333EVO and jimbro1000. You certainly know how to 'push cars' and have discovered their 'weak points'.

For the 'normal' driver out there (I might come into this category ) who has yo yo'ed from a fairly standard engine to a turbo charged engine and then to a 6 cylinder 2.5L engine (you can guess which one - rear wheel drive) I have ended back into a decent little engine with the option to move back into a turbo charged little engine.

Abarth have used a Variable vane turbocharger which gives the best of both worlds (this was used in the 911) delivering a good spread of power with little lag. It's as if its 'part of the engine'.

Remembering the choice that used to existed on the cossies with either a T3 or a T4 (all or nothing) the newer technology means you can get the best of both worlds.

The issue on boost pressure is also linked to increasing the size of the intercooler but it was an interesting point.

On the VTEC engines there is some inputs from other reviews not dissimiliar to my own.
http://www.japmobiles.com/cars/cars_detail.asp?id=14
The ITR begs to be driven and is rewarding to do so. It does require dedication, with little low down torque, and VTEC not even engaging until around 6000rpm

This review will probably upset you a bit…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article1839477.ece
and I could dig out one from EVO which was similiar to the former in relation to the Honda S2000.

Renault ironically were one of the first hot hatchbacks with the Renault 5 in turbo charging it and now they're the one with a NA engine in the Clio. Going back on the VTEC and their slick gearbox -if this was put into a Turbo charged car I wonder how it would cope.

There is a demand out there for a nice slick gearbox (preferably 6) in the A500 but thinking back on the review on the DS3R where Chris Harris said that if you want an advanced small performance car you are going to have to pay for it.

On the original reviews of the A500 it was priced around £13,700 on its launch year (I could be wrong on this) but prices have been creeping up possibly due to VAT increases and possibly also because some of the new drivers of the A500 expect Beamer service levels which drives up the overheads hence cost.

In Ireland Suzuki is very poor at holding its value. A 2006 model Suzuki Sport (65K on the clock - pretty good condition) sold at Windsor Auction in Feb this year for €2,200. Hard car to shift on - its amazing how countries differ. Although this has a 1.6 engine to get its 120bhp.

As a road car IMHO the A500 suits the current PC environment and if the MA is stuck into it you will have a 150 bhp + in a car weighting a little over a ton that will return upwards of 40mpg and should be priced at under a £15K. If you want a bit more oomph in it - it can be TMCd for around £300.

Hopefully Fiat will continue to develop the Abarth marquee and not 'switch off'.

 

[jimbro1000]

I completely agree with Mr Clarkson on the new(er) Civic Type R. In reality it is an abomination of a hot hatch - the original CTR (which we didn't see in the UK) was stunning, the ITR was its bigger brother and more competent in every way. When Honda killed both off and introduced replacements it all went a bit wrong. The DC5 ITR got a bigger engine but lost its LSD and used cheaper suspension. The CTR got turned into a breadvan, got a bigger engine and also used cheaper suspension. Instead of the backroad weapons that they were previously the new versions were just dragstrip racers with some fairly decent handling. The latest CTR may look fantastic and has a better engine but the suspension is worse.

I test drove one shortly before the Megane and Clio on the same roads and the new CTR was noticeably quicker than the old model and went road corners well but nothing like the old DC2 ITR and nothing as well as the Clio or the Megane.

 

[J333EVO]

Yeah good thread.

The 500 Abarth doesn't have a variable vane turbo, this is normally the preserve of diesels to get over the inherent deficiencies of those engines, lack of power spread. Though the Porsche 911 Turbo uses two of them. The technology was invented by Holset.

The 500 uses a tiny IHI turbo I think, but it's certainly a slightly larger Garrett fitted to GP Abarth SS and the Trofeo 500, again fixed vane. It only feels flexible low down as it spools quickly due to tiny size compared to say the T2 of the R5GTT of which I had two. & it has a higher compression ratio about 9.5to1 but cant remember off hand compared to 8.5to1 of the R5GTT. This means car works much better off boost but with modern ECU technology, knock sensors, electronic boost control solenoid you can run this higher compression without running risk of detonation.

The DC5 & Civic EP3 both use double wishbone rear suspension set up with Macpherson fronts, DC5 & JDM EP3 ( built in Swindon with European EP3's) get LSD as standard and the same K20A engine which in European form is 200PS in JDM 220PS. Also the JDM EP3 runs a much thicker rear anti-roll bar which mine has as it's only £90 from Honda & this makes the car much more pointy & increases steering feel as front end gets more grip.

I know much was made that after the EK9 Civic Type-R & DC2 Integra with double wishbones all round the DC5 & EP3 were going backwards, but then when was the last time a car won a WRC event or BTTC event without Macpherson set up. Yes counter argument is F1 run double wishbone but by design an open wheeled formula dictates this and actually the most successful F1 car in RedBull designed by the genius Adrain Newy runs a pushrod rear suspension set up and the results are obvious. Double wishbone is not be all and end all with multi-link even more expensive to engineer.

The newer FN2 Civic loses the double wishbone completely, but the championship edition (White) all get a LSD and lapped Bedford nearly 3secs quicker by virtue of it. The JDM FD2 Civic Type-R is just awesome with 240PS from it's K20A engine, LSD double wishbone suspension & even though based on same 4 door salon as the Civic hybride we get here lighter than the FN2.

There are a high number of EP3s running turbo and supercharger kits with way over 300bhp on standard gear boxes without issue, Honda boxes are very good.


This video from Best Motoring Japan round Tsubuka makes interesting watching with a Civic Type-R FN2, Clio RS 200, Mini Cooper S, 500 Abarth & Mitsubishi Colt Ralliart.

 

[loveshandbags]

The 500 Abarth doesn't have a variable vane turbo, this is normally the preserve of diesels to get over the inherent deficiencies of those engines, lack of power spread. Though the Porsche 911 Turbo uses two of them. The technology was invented by Holset.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_geometry_turbocharger"]Variable geometry turbocharger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File13B_EGR.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/D13B_EGR.jpg/250px-D13B_EGR.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/3/39/D13B_EGR.jpg/250px-D13B_EGR.jpg[/ame]

http://abarthcarsuk.com/abarth-cars/abarth-500/abarth-500-esseesse/
Turbocharged with variable geometry IHI RHF3-P turbocharger.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10397096-48.html
The Fiat Abarth 500 was unveiled at the 2008 Geneva auto show. A 1.4-liter Fire engine with an IHI variable geometry turbocharger powers it.

I may have confused variable vane with variable geometry.

 

[306maxi]

Variable geometry turbocharger - Wikipedia, the free [email]encyclopedia

http://abarthcarsuk.com/abarth-cars/abarth-500/abarth-500-esseesse/
Turbocharged with variable geometry IHI RHF3-P turbocharger.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10397096-48.html
The Fiat Abarth 500 was unveiled at the 2008 Geneva auto show. A 1.4-liter Fire engine with an IHI variable geometry turbocharger powers it.

I may have confused variable vane with variable geometry.

I could be wrong but I thought they were the very same thing?

 

[J333EVO]

No good find, it's pretty simplistic & in fact IHI run an updated RHV turbo in these sizes.

It's not quite as complex as the Holset turbos run by Porsche.

What's interesting is IHI say this turbo is good on diesel engines and small capacity petrol cars & has been used on 660cc Japanese Kei cars, & is listed as working from 27-135bhp meaning it's running at top end on the 500 & beyond it in SS spec, though I'm sure it must have had durability testing done on it running the higher boost. But I'm 99% sure the aftermarket tubers getting more power from it are getting close to over speeding the turbo & creating hotter intake temps & potentially lowering power on longer runs & shortening the lifespan of the turbo.

 

[spacecadetrik]

In between my 2 500's I owned a Clio RS200. It really is the best car I have ever driven. I tried all of the warm/hot hatches before I bought it and think that some of the comparisons are unfair. The Abarth is a great wee car but in a different class to the clio. The DS3 wasn't around at the time and to be honest I just don't see that the chassis is likely to touch the clio.

I think that it is just as well that they are making limited numbers of the hot DS3 as the price I feel would damage it competing in the open market against others who are producing larger volume. The biggest issue is likely to be that pricewise it is getting close to the basic Megane 250. And that, having driven one, would blow it off the road. I have only had a half hour in the megane, but would urge you all to get out there and test drive it.

 

[Kernow]

In between my 2 500's I owned a Clio RS200. It really is the best car I have ever driven. I tried all of the warm/hot hatches before I bought it and think that some of the comparisons are unfair. The Abarth is a great wee car but in a different class to the clio. The DS3 wasn't around at the time and to be honest I just don't see that the chassis is likely to touch the clio.

I think that it is just as well that they are making limited numbers of the hot DS3 as the price I feel would damage it competing in the open market against others who are producing larger volume. The biggest issue is likely to be that pricewise it is getting close to the basic Megane 250. And that, having driven one, would blow it off the road. I have only had a half hour in the megane, but would urge you all to get out there and test drive it.

I don't fully agree with that, if I go to the Renault Sport website and spec up a Clio 200 with the same equipment as the DS3 Racing it comes to £22k, that's not far off the price of the Racing. The same could be said with the 500 once it's fully specced up.

As for the handling etc not being able to touch a Clio, you'd be very, very surprised. I've driven both as I mentioned earlier and there's nothing it in, the DS3R handles equally as well as the Clio.

Stef

 

[J333EVO]

You must be clicking ever option in the world to get a Clio to £22k when the limited edition Clio RS200 Silverstone GP 50 bring made all numbered on a plaque, is £20k & gets Recaros (which the Citroen can't get) Speedlines, Renaultsport monitor, Cup chassis pack, black mirrors & roof on met silver base car & entry plus tuition at any Renaultsport UK organized trackday. It's considered expensive by folk who paid £14k for a Clio RS200 Cup.

I really like the DS3 Racing, as a new exciting alternative to more established hot hatches, but here's an EVO mag review.


What is it?
A new 204bhp version of the DS3 hatchback engineered by Citroen Racing (the same people that make Sébastien Loeb’s rather successful WRC cars). It’s available in Obsidian Black with Sport Orange or Polar White with Carbon Grey and has lashings of carbonfibre inside and out. It's on sale now and costs £23,100, though numbers are limited.
*
Technical highlights?
The front and rear tracks have been widened by 30mm and the body height has been lowered by 15mm. The front brake discs are now 323mm in diameter and they’re clamped by four piston Brembo calipers. The ESP can now also be totally switched off and the 18in wheels feature ‘Reverse Rim’ technology, which makes them look more like 19in rims and improves weight distribution.
*
What’s it like to drive?
It’s a very agile chassis underneath the DS3 R and it’s a very chuckable car as it corners flat and switches direction really quickly. This allows you to string together fast and medium speed corners really enjoyably. However, although the steering isn’t bad for an electric system, it still feels too light in slower speed corners and fails to feed back enough information about what the front tyres are doing. In the wet conditions we drove it in, it was always the front end that would give up its grip first too, unless you really trail-braked heavily into corners.

It’s a good job that you can turn the ESP off fully because although 204bhp isn’t much in a hot hatch these days (and it doesn’t seem to have the vim of the same engine in the Mini – partly due to gearing, I suspect) the front tyres struggled to really lay the power down cleanly.

So, it’s a good car, but not a great one and I’ll be interested to see how it copes on the considerably bumpier roads of the UK…
*
How does it compare?
At £23,100 it is significantly more expensive than the similarly sized and powered Renaultsport Clio 200 (and not as good to drive), however, I suspect more people will consider it as an alternative to a Mini John Cooper Works. The DS3 R and Mini are much more closely matched on price and I suspect they will be dynamically closer too, although I would probably narrowly back the Mini to win the encounter. We will see.
*
Anything else I need to know?
The graphics that you can see on the cars in the photos are an option (and a £450 option at that), and we'd order it in the white colour scheme as it looks a lot better. Oh, and the CO2 emissions are a staggeringly good 149g/km. That means £125 annual tax compared to the Clio 200's £235.


evo RATING*

Plus points-An exciting new hot hatch

Negative points- But not a great one

evo SPECIFICATIONS*
Engine: In-line 4cyl, 1598cc, turbo
Max power: 204bhp @ 6000rpm
Max torque: 203lb ft @ 2000 - 4500rpm
0 - 60mph: 6.5sec (claimed 0-62mph)
Top speed: 146mph (limited)

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/260809/citroen_ds3_racing_review.html

 

[Kernow]

The options I chose were the ones that in my mind closely matched the DS3R. You don't get Recaros in the DS3R, true, but the standard seats that do come with it are as close to a non-branded Recaro as you'll get.

Guys, I'm not slating the Clio, I owned a 182 for a good couple of years, and I've driven the 200, and for me drive wise there's nothing in it.

When we were getting rid of the 182 we considered the Clio Sport (the 197 at that time), but it had less equipment than the outgoing model, it didn't look as nice as the outgoing model and it's a bloody expensive car to run for what it is.

I stepped down from a 480BHP RWD to the DS3R, partly as an economy drive and partly as I wanted to something that handled like a cart, so I tried all 3 models that this original thread mentions, and as an all round car for handling, costs and day to living with the DS3R came out tops.

We still want to swap the 500 Lounge in for an Abarth though!

Stef

 

[loveshandbags]

When I was looking to scrap a Fiat Marea for a Renault Megane (looked around before settling on the 500 - but ended up with a secondhand one) I was very impressed with the fit out on it. Didn't get to drive in the 250 version. It was advertised on TV this weekend and the guy who was dropping his girlfriend off decided 'not to go in for a cup of tea' and when off for another drive . He probably had a rendevous worked out with Vicki.
The Megane 250 is 'up in the RS Focus' bracket with a 2L turbo. Different 'ball game' to either a 1.4 or 1.6 Turbo and would have high running costs despite the test mpg of 33. The Clio 200 normally gives around 23-24mpg which I reckon spacecadetrik could testify to. It competes well on price against the DS3R but would not have the green credentials but probably is the best hot hatch (a bit like carlsberg ).

 

[306maxi]

I don't fully agree with that, if I go to the Renault Sport website and spec up a Clio 200 with the same equipment as the DS3 Racing it comes to £22k, that's not far off the price of the/QUOTE]

I think this is not really a sensible argument. Sure if you go speccing cars up to the exact same spec then one car might be more expensive than another. But what if you don't want climate control or Funkenspunkenwagenelectronique steering? Or the other options that the car comes with?

If you want all those options then yes, that may change the value stakes, but what if you don't want all the crap that some manufacturers choose to bundle with a car's specification? Then sometimes a Clio Rennosport would be the better option.

 

[Kernow]

I don't fully agree with that, if I go to the Renault Sport website and spec up a Clio 200 with the same equipment as the DS3 Racing it comes to £22k, that's not far off the price of the/QUOTE]

I think this is not really a sensible argument. Sure if you go speccing cars up to the exact same spec then one car might be more expensive than another. But what if you don't want climate control or Funkenspunkenwagenelectronique steering? Or the other options that the car comes with?

If you want all those options then yes, that may change the value stakes, but what if you don't want all the crap that some manufacturers choose to bundle with a car's specification? Then sometimes a Clio Rennosport would be the better option.

You're missing my point, if you want a 'No frills, says what it does on the tin' then the Clio is the better option.

The point I'm trying to make is that too many reviews from so called motoring journalists have been biased because of the price difference between the Clio and the DS3R, however in reality, there is a reason it's more expensive and that's because of its equipment level. So in that respect, the Clio 200 should NOT be listed as a direct competitor to the DS3R.

I only see one realistic direct competitor to the DS3R and that's the MINI JCW, however, if you were to take an identical spec MINI then it's actually slightly more expensive than the DS3R.

Stef

 

[306maxi]

but a clio is still cheaper.

 

[Kernow]

but a clio is still cheaper.

Right, so my 1.2L 69HP Fiat 500 is better than my 1.6 Turbo 207HP Citroen DS3 Racing according to your price argument?



Stef

 

[306maxi]

if it's as quick on the road then yes

 

[Kernow]

**sigh**

 

[306maxi]

**sigh**

Well the point is that it's NOT as quick. But lets compare the Clio and the DS3R....... hmmm I can have a car that's more or less as quick as the DS3R for how much less?

 

[Kernow]

That's fine if you buy a car purely on performance alone, then as I've said it's a better choice but taking ALL things in to account I don't believe it is, in my experience the DS3R has a better interior, better quality materials and much cheaper running costs.

I'd also take the Abarth over the Clio as I think the Clio is bland and characterless, just my opinion of course.

Stef

 

[306maxi]

It's not an insignificant difference in price though.....