What's made you grumpy today?

[portland_bill]

I looked at joining the ranks a few years back and it was clear it was going to be not only hard work but a doubtful earner for one with no experience of the business, so I decided not to get involved. Any one 'man' band self employed jobs are hard, and as you say, if you dont do the hours it will leave you short of money so high risk.

It is not for everyone. The qualification process is difficult, and harsh. Only about 20% of those that start the process make it through to become an instructor. There was a training company that advertised on the telly, and would take on anyone. They would take the fees upfront, with no refunds when the poor souls dropped out. So many people took their redundancy money, 'invested' it in the training, then later found it was not for them. I trained with BSM. They assessed you first, then offered several ways to pay, although all upfront was the cheapest. If they thought you were not suitable, they'd tell you. Then if you dropped out, you got a refund of any monies not yet spent on training.
You start with a theory test. Like the learner one, but with a higher pass mark. No restriction on number of takes, but needing more than two raises doubt about suitability. Once passed, a 2-year clock starts. Fail to qualify in that time, and you wait another two years before you can start again.
Then there's a driving test. Conducted in a similar way to the learner test, but an hour long, includes all manoeuvres, emergency stop on a 40mph road, and motorway if near one. Max 6 minor faults. (Learner has a max of 15) You can take this only 3 times. If you fail a third time, you're out, and need to wait 2 years if wishing to pursue again. Once the driving test is passed, there is an option to start working, as a trainee instructor (Pink triangular badge. Full instructor is a green octagon. Must be displayed in the windscreen when teaching). This is under a recongised training regime, with some lessons supervised, and a training syllabus being followed.
Then comes the teaching test. When I did mine, a senior examiner would role play a learner, describe a scenario, and off you go, picking up and addressing faults. After 30 minutes, stop, different scenario, and off again. You had to control the lesson, and stop it if necessary, and perhaps divert it to address issues if necessary. All part of the examination. so many people failed when they allowed the examiner to approach junctions too fast, or other issues. It plays with your head, knowing he can drive well, but you have to deal with what you see, not what you know. After it is over, you're left for 20 minutes, pondering your performance, while the examiner writes his report. Then he comes back out and gives you the news. Again, fail this 3 times and you're done. Nowadays the test is different. They observe you conducting a lesson. This is why trainee instructors just disappear, they don't tell their students that they are taking their third teaching test, then if they fail, they cannot teach again. So many just disappear, and ignore calls, etc. With decent trainign organisations, like BSM and AA, they have alternative instrcutors lined up to take on students for anyone going for their third test, although they'll have done as much as they can to address all issues.
Once qualified, we get re-assessed, they observe a lesson, and you are rated A, B or fail. If a fail, you get another check very quickly. If that is failed, you get a senior examiner and a last chance. Fail a third time, and they walk away with your licence. (That's the ADI licence, not the driving licence.) Keeps us on our toes.

Then, as Panda Nut says, no guarantee of work. Soon after I started, we went through a period of too many instructors (so many trainee licences) chasing too little work, due to an economic downturn, and lots taking training, but ultimately failing. Covid readjusted that.


Sorry, went on a bit.

 

[AndyRKett]

It is not for everyone. The qualification process is difficult, and harsh. Only about 20% of those that start the process make it through to become an instructor. There was a training company that advertised on the telly, and would take on anyone. They would take the fees upfront, with no refunds when the poor souls dropped out. So many people took their redundancy money, 'invested' it in the training, then later found it was not for them.

would that be the instructor college that became RED driving school by chance??

In the early 2000s, I put down about 2k for their course to become a driving instructor, I passed the theory and was working up to the part 2, but the nearest learning centre was 70 miles away, I had to work in the mean time to cover my bills and it became impossible to get odd days off here and there to travel to do the training (weirdly employers are not keen on you doing training to take on another job) so I eventually dropped out, like I am sure many others. I also was not overly impressed with the training. They would take 3 of us out in a car and then get the other trainees to comment on what was wrong with your driving, then they would drive and you would comment on them, there was no actual structured training during the part 2 and it was very much a case of the blind leading the blind.

 

[portland_bill]

would that be the instructor college that became RED driving school by chance??

In the early 2000s, I put down about 2k for their course to become a driving instructor, I passed the theory and was working up to the part 2, but the nearest learning centre was 70 miles away, I had to work in the mean time to cover my bills and it became impossible to get odd days off here and there to travel to do the training (weirdly employers are not keen on you doing training to take on another job) so I eventually dropped out, like I am sure many others. I also was not overly impressed with the training. They would take 3 of us out in a car and then get the other trainees to comment on what was wrong with your driving, then they would drive and you would comment on them, there was no actual structured training during the part 2 and it was very much a case of the blind leading the blind.

That'd be them. Not very professional at all.
When trundling around Reading with the BSM trainers, we'd see them out and about, and often comment about what they were doing poorly.
When they taught instructors on the left reverse around a corner, the trainer and the other trainees would all stand on the pavement to watch the trajectory of the car. Of course, the one in the car was a full licence holder, so no problem being alone. Sadly, so many of these new instructors would do the same thing with their learners. With the instructor outside the car, and the learner driving it around a corner, the learner is committing an offence of being unsupervised. Kept seeing it for years.

 

[The Panda Nut]

That'd be them. Not very professional at all.
When trundling around Reading with the BSM trainers, we'd see them out and about, and often comment about what they were doing poorly.
When they taught instructors on the left reverse around a corner, the trainer and the other trainees would all stand on the pavement to watch the trajectory of the car. Of course, the one in the car was a full licence holder, so no problem being alone. Sadly, so many of these new instructors would do the same thing with their learners. With the instructor outside the car, and the learner driving it around a corner, the learner is committing an offence of being unsupervised. Kept seeing it for years.

Wow. I thougt it was crystal clear you must be inside the car. Surely one of the key functions of the instructor is to recognize when its necessary to take over control if safety is about to be breached. You cannot do that if a trainee looses it when you'r not in the car. Do that in you own yard and nowhere else.

I have to say it was Red that had me looking. I did a lot of work projecting income with different numbers of customers and I really couldnt see how you could make a living wage. In fact with their 'package' offer I couldnt really see how you would break even borrowing or leasing a car.

I taught my kids to drive. Two were first time passes. The other didnt like me telling her stuff, only came out a handful of times and then insisted on lessons which cost me a fortune. I shouldn't look smug she passed second time. She wouldnt come and do the long drive I wanted before the test and it proved my point. It was probably right she just wasnt quite ready. So far, they have been accident free and its now 15 years since the last passed. I think learning in Dads pride and joy does add an edge to the learning experience. Youngest doesnt want to drive my Panda even now. I dont take all the credit as we had a local driving instructor take them at the end to make sure they were stripped of all my bad habits and to be test ready and he was worth every penny. The girls particularly have said they gained a lot from my comments and the older said she really gets benefitsnow which is nice. I think I was trying to push years of experience into them and to teach them about anticipating what others might do in order to stay alive. Two things I have learned over 50 years behind the wheel is you can anticipate and predict, and this makes decision making easier. But, you can never assume. I sometimes think I cannot see anything that will shock or suprise me any more but its a cert that indeed I still things that suprise, and sometimes shock me to the core when driving. If you want to survive the staggering idiocy of some people you must never drop you observation and concentration. Cars and the way the are driving have body language and you need to be wise to it, if you want a quiet life you need to project your own body language in your driving. A confident driver who is incontrol and acting with a degree of authority is less likely to cause an uipset than either a pushy idiot or a timd driver creeping along in the gutter. The kids got this, I wish my Mrs would be just a tad more assertive for her own benefit.

There are few drivers that I trust enough to sleep while travelling with them. Top of the list by a substantial margin is my son who is outstanding. He combines an assertive style while never showing aggression, and has mechanical sympathy rare in someone who hasn't been involved in car repairs and maintenance. It must be the control freak in him that hes been inflicted with by me.... He a physicist so probably knows exactly how the thing works even if he would rather someone else did the mucky bits. So, well done RJ! (I know he snoops around reading my spouting and ranting on here!)

One last beef. Im sure PB tells all his pupils. If its not an important part of the driving test, it should be, how to deal with approaching blue lights. It seems that more work is needed explaining how to deal with emergency vehicles. I think RoSPA / GEM have a video Blue light aware that everyone should see just as a refresher if nothing else. That body language is even more important when you are making signals actively and passively to another driver inviting them to pass. My rules are keep moving reduce speed to a level where you can be passed easily if possible, make space and be clear and steady. Use signals and be seen to observe the EV as it apporaches so there is no doubting your intentions. I nearly always get a thankyou toot from the vehicles horn as they go by. Im as bad as most about using my mirror, but if you can see the emergency vehicle coming it makes it much easier to work out a plan to be either out of the way or at / in a place and position to be passed. If the EV cant overtake because of oncoming traffic coming towards you keep going and drive up to the speed limit. Dont stop asis seen far too many times. One day it will be me in the ambulance and if you make me die I WILL haunt you... forever.

 

[AndyRKett]

That'd be them. Not very professional at all.
When trundling around Reading with the BSM trainers, we'd see them out and about, and often comment about what they were doing poorly.
When they taught instructors on the left reverse around a corner, the trainer and the other trainees would all stand on the pavement to watch the trajectory of the car. Of course, the one in the car was a full licence holder, so no problem being alone. Sadly, so many of these new instructors would do the same thing with their learners. With the instructor outside the car, and the learner driving it around a corner, the learner is committing an offence of being unsupervised. Kept seeing it for years.

Not something I encountered, that being said, the actual tuition by the time people had driven from another part of the country, you'd had a briefing as to what you would do that day and then you'd finally get out in the car and await your turn amongst the other 2 learners in the car. The total driving time was probably less then an hour with all the stops to explain things, and then you'd not have another session for a month or so, the speed of progress was glacial.

I have to say it was Red that had me looking. I did a lot of work projecting income with different numbers of customers and I really couldn't see how you could make a living wage. In fact with their 'package' offer I couldn't really see how you would break even borrowing or leasing a car.

another factor that pushed me to drop out and bear in mind this was about the time PB trained in the early 2000s, I started talking to working instructors, which when you considered the lesson price at that time, the cost of leasing a car, advertising and all the other bits you needed to go with it, OR, you joined as a franchise and paid all those fees, many of the instructors I was talking to were working their take home to be about £15k a year. with all the expense of the training, I would have ended up earning no more money or in fact less money that I was earning at that time.

one thing that did make me laugh is obviously having gone through the process it definitely made me a better driver and gave me a much better understanding of road rules and the law compared to what most people have.

There was shall we say a "character" on here at one point who I note still occasionally turns up posts something and disappears again for several months they took to posting a lot of dash cam videos to their YouTube page, back about 10 years ago or so, when dash cams were really quite new, he was clearly trying to kick start his YouTube channel that was going to make him a millionaire and also he worked as some sort of delivery driver or mini bus driver so was on the road a lot.
He posted something (can't remember what is was now give how many years have past) he was clearly in the wrong blocking the road or something and had the audacity to tell me I didn't know what I was talking about because 'HE' was a 'PROFESSIONAL' driver.........

Well as PB proves by what he does day in day out, and by every amazon van that you pass without a single straight panel or wheel, just because you are a 'professional driver' doesn't mean you know how to drive, and when you get your license and go and take a job with the local multi drop company there is no additional training class you go on that magically makes you a better driver.

 

[portland_bill]

You can only make a good living if you have the temperament to do lots of hours. Initially, with BSM, I was pushed to do 4 2-hour sessions a day. Didn't take long for the novelty to wear off, although in 2004, the learners were better than now. As youngsters now stare into a small screen all day, by the time they are 17, their brains are mush. Teaching them is so much more difficult, so I've let go, preferring to do the fleet work. They are mostly much better, having either experience of lots of miles, maturity, or at least a desire to stay safe on the road.
Having used some of my redundancy money to pay off the remaining mortgage, I was able to earn less without changing my quality of life. If I'd still had the mortgage, I'd have needed a different job. Now, with pensions coming in, I can continue working, and relax.
There were some weeks with BSM, where the take home, after the franchise was paid, was less than the fuel used. Most years I've paid little or no tax, having earnt only around the tax threshold. Makes for an easy life though, if the income is enough. If there'd been a family, or only one income, would have been different.
Panda Nut is right about 'body language', and this is an important part of anticipating others' actions. My learners have always had to work hard, as I do not have a lower standard for them, so they got taught advanced techniques.
Delivery drivers and taxi drivers are not 'professional'. They've had no additional training, so only improve if they self-analyse, and strive to be better. Most apparently do not. Just driving all day, every day, does not automatically make you better.
As Panda Nut also says, never believe you know all the answers. No matter how much you hone your anticipation skills, someone will present a new way to surprise you.

 

[vexorg]

Smart motorways have annoyed me since I came across them on the M1 a few years ago. What annoys me most is how they are sneaking them out and there is very little public awareness to a major change to the motorway rules.
Now it seems they have been going offline a lot and there's no way to tell people on the motorway. Brilliant system!!

The idea of breaking down on a smart motorway is terrifying.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Smart motorways have annoyed me since I came across them on the M1 a few years ago. What annoys me most is how they are sneaking them out and there is very little public awareness to a major change to the motorway rules.
Now it seems they have been going offline a lot and there's no way to tell people on the motorway. Brilliant system!!

The idea of breaking down on a smart motorway is terrifying.

Aye, I was as nervous as ever on our recent trip down to Devon and back. I was making sure to leave at least the "2 second rule" gap to the car in front but when you get down into the midlands the traffic is so heavy it's almost impossible to do this. The standard of driving in this part of the country is appalling with cars traveling at high speed with separation appropriate to that in a 20mph restricted region. And, on several occasions, cars traveling at probably over the speed limit in the outside lane cutting across all 4 lanes to an exit - Insanity! I wouldn't say I was terrified but I was very very uncomfortable.

Interesting program on BBC1 Scotland breakfast program as I'm typing this. Apparently smart motorways are the safest roads in Britain but the tech which is supposed to protect you - Cameras, radar, etc - seems to be disturbingly often either not working at all, switched off for maintenance or unserviceable for some other reason. The disturbing figure is that 10% of vehicles stationary in a live lane are not picked up due to this. There's to be a program all about it on BBC1 tonight at 8pm on BBC1 - Panorama I think? I'll be watching it for sure.

 

[vexorg]

By terrifying, I mean I would not like to be sitting in the slow lane broken down, hoping other people have seen the signs.

 

[StevenRB45]

Interesting program on BBC1 Scotland breakfast program as I'm typing this. Apparently smart motorways are the safest roads in Britain

This has the feeling of "lies, damn lies and statistics".

So motorway in general is the safest road...smart motorway tends to be installed on low average speed section of motorway where injury/death is less likely. Smart motorway also seems to be at 50mph 98% of the time...

I can fully believe fewer people die... because most sections are in gridlock a good chunk of the time.

 

[bugsymike]

By terrifying, I mean I would not like to be sitting in the slow lane broken down, hoping other people have seen the signs.

Could be even worse in the outside lane.
Many years ago I was in a Morris Marine 1800 that my boss had told me to use but I was unhappy with the engine, I had just passed a lorry and the engine seized, luckily I was able to press the clutch and keep enough speed to continue past the lorry and go across to the hard shoulder, probably not very popular but better than being in the outside lane stationary!
The cause of the problem was the head gasket had failed pumping the engine oil into the radiator, no light came on until it seized.

 

[vexorg]

Could be even worse in the outside lane.

That risk doesn't change, but generally when you were on the red hard shoulder then you knew no one else should be on that lane. Now that lane is controlled by signs, and if people are not aware or foreign then they could easily still be in the slow lane when it's closed.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

That risk doesn't change, but generally when you were on the red hard shoulder then you knew no one else should be on that lane. Now that lane is controlled by signs, and if people are not aware or foreign then they could easily still be in the slow lane when it's closed.

Yup, we've seen cars in lanes with the red cross in the gantry over them on pretty much every time we make this journey. I want to know the secret to how you arrange for your car to break down just as you're approaching one of these laybys?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

This has the feeling of "lies, damn lies and statistics".

So motorway in general is the safest road...smart motorway tends to be installed on low average speed section of motorway where injury/death is likely. Smart motorway also seems to be at 50mph 98% of the time...

I can fully believe fewer people die... because most sections are in gridlock a good chunk of the time.

Yup the figures are not comparing like for like. It's the old story, you can make statistics prove whatever you like by being selective with the input. Doesn't make any difference if you're the unfortunate sod who gets killed or horribly disabled.

 

[AndyRKett]

This has the feeling of "lies, damn lies and statistics".

I think it more likely that the shear number of cars that travel down motorways every day, versus the number of accidents makes them statically safer than a 30 mph road with bikes pedestrians, street furniture and cars moving in multiple directions.

If you have 10 million cars pass down a road every year but only have one accident a day, then you have 365 in 10,000,000 chance of having an accident. or 1 in 27,397.

If you have 10,000 cars pass down a 30 mile an hour road or even 20,000 cars and you only have one accident a year, it means you have a 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 20,000 chance of having an accident statistically making it more likely you will have an accident on the smaller road than the motorway with 10million cars.

Smart motorways are still likely to be statically far more safe than the road your house is built on due to the high numbers of cars traveling down them. Also if anything catches the media's attention then you start to hear about every accident on a smart motorway, where as you definitely don't hear about every person killed or at least not to the same degree if an accident happens not on a smart motorway. its a kind of confirmation bias that the press like to push. its a problem because we report it to be a problem

and while I can understand not wanting to break down on a smart motor way I don't even give it a second thought when driving down them.

why is the risk any different to driving down a duel carriage way which has no hard shoulder but people are still doing 70mph ??

 

[vexorg]

why is the risk any different to driving down a duel carriage way which has no hard shoulder but people are still doing 70mph ??

Most dual carriageways round our way have a grass verge on the side, you can generally get off the lane to some degree. These smart motorways seem to have you trapped there.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Most dual carriageways round our way have a grass verge on the side, you can generally get off the lane to some degree. These smart motorways seem to have you trapped there.

Yup, a lot of them have a retaining Armco barrier which stop you driving onto the nice wee grass area on the other side of it!

 

[AndyRKett]

A lot of the dual carriageways down south have barriers or very deep rain gutters which prevent you pulling off, long stretches of the A14 have loose shingle just off the road which if you drove into it you’d not get out again and in other areas there are steep embankments, so while there may be places that you can pull a car off the road these are not universal and not necessarily the general rule.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

A lot of the dual carriageways down south have barriers or very deep rain gutters which prevent you pulling off, long stretches of the A14 have loose shingle just off the road which if you drove into it you’d not get out again and in other areas there are steep embankments, so while there may be places that you can pull a car off the road these are not universal and not necessarily the general rule.

Noticed the loose shingle ditches before and wondered if you'd just sink into them.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Smart motorways have annoyed me since I came across them on the M1 a few years ago. What annoys me most is how they are sneaking them out and there is very little public awareness to a major change to the motorway rules.
Now it seems they have been going offline a lot and there's no way to tell people on the motorway. Brilliant system!!

The idea of breaking down on a smart motorway is terrifying.

I totally agree. I understood no more were being planned as its now clear safety is compromised. (per GEM / RoSPA)
I wont use them.