General Rusty brakes again.

[The Panda Nut]

Well I managed to get the discs off and cleaned again. Not too bad but already looking shabby after just 10 months. I conclude the caliper mounting slider pins and bushes are not good so will try and get another year at which point the whole front brakes will go in the bin. New calpers are around £80 a pair and come with the new slider pin. I am going to seek some soft brake pads to encourage the piston to move quicker rather than stay more or less static. I hope new pads will conform to the disc quicker and help prevent rust and crud build up.
I couldnt see anything wrong except the back pads on both sides had filled the pad groove with crap whcih I had to remove with a drill. The car is now 11 years old so new brakes for a couple of hundred will prpobably be a good idea.

Drivers side tyre destroyed on the inside edge so two new ones and a retrack now required again. I will get the bottom ball joint inspected at the same time, but thats only done 5 years so I hope its not also at fault.

My god haven't tyres shot up in price in the last 18 months.

 

[koalar]

If its only one tyre that's worn a retrack will not help. Toe effects both tyres equally

Suspension wear is very likely

original arms last an easy 10 years

cheapest eBay a couple of years

most are somewhere in between of course it do depend how and where you drive

I'd start by checking the ride high both sides

check the struts aren't leaking

then push the car until one of the wheel nuts is at 12 O'clock and put the handbrake on. Put a wench on the top wheel nut as vertical as you can and pull as to undo and tighten the nut, How much does the wheel move back and forth in the wheel arch. Compare to the other side.

what ever it is need sorting before you change the tyre.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Thanks Koalar. I have crawled around under it today. I cant find any movement or see anything adrift. I have the nasty feeling about the tyres as the n/s is pretty good. You have confirmed what I was thinking. N/s is more worn on the inside but just a mm or so and not on the shoulder like the drivers side. I shall try your suggestion tomorrow. I havnt noticed the ride height being off, but now I will check. I wonder if the strut top bush has started to fail. I will get the camber checked. I have some Eibach camber bolts which should fit this car and might introduce them. At least the brakes are now working 100%. Im having two tyres on it tomorrow and a tracking check but will start to have a really good look at it afterwards. I really detest cars eating tyres! The one thing my Golf did right was tyre wear. The other two Pandas are doing OK so this must be fixable. We had the whole front suspension done 4 years ago... except springs. The arms were done by the dealer but not with Fiat bits so who knows if good or bad quality parts. As its a long weekend I might pull the lot off and have a close look. Its only done about 20K since it was rebuilt. As its my daughter shes probably bent something....

 

[DaveMcT]

Brake caliper sliding pins hardly move and are protected from corrosion so wear is unlikely. If they are tight, pull them out, clean thoroughly and refit with red rubber grease. However new slider pin kits are only about £16 so you might as well replace them anyway.

The pads should move free in their slots. Clean the slots and check the new pads are free to move without being sloppy. If necessary lithely file the pad "ears". Then apply a good anti seize and they'll be good to go. A new caliper is only needed if the new pads are a sloppy fit or the hydraulic piston is not moving. The latter, usually presents with the brake binding and overheating.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Brake caliper sliding pins hardly move and are protected from corrosion so wear is unlikely. If they are tight, pull them out, clean thoroughly and refit with red rubber grease. However new slider pin kits are only about £16 so you might as well replace them anyway.

The pads should move free in their slots. Clean the slots and check the new pads are free to move without being sloppy. If necessary lithely file the pad "ears". Then apply a good anti seize and they'll be good to go. A new caliper is only needed if the new pads are a sloppy fit or the hydraulic piston is not moving. The latter, usually presents with the brake binding and overheating.

Thanks I will try and find a slider pin kit. This seems to be a double layer of rubber so must be worn after 70K at c£20 its a no brainer mfor me too. It will be interesting to see if it improves the rate of disc corrosion.

 

[The Panda Nut]

If its only one tyre that's worn a retrack will not help. Toe effects both tyres equally

Suspension wear is very likely

original arms last an easy 10 years

cheapest eBay a couple of years

most are somewhere in between of course it do depend how and where you drive

I'd start by checking the ride high both sides

check the struts aren't leaking

then push the car until one of the wheel nuts is at 12 O'clock and put the handbrake on. Put a wench on the top wheel nut as vertical as you can and pull as to undo and tighten the nut, How much does the wheel move back and forth in the wheel arch. Compare to the other side.

what ever it is need sorting before you change the tyre.

The ride height is 61.5 and 61.8 measured on the drive so pretty level does this look right I cannot find the correct figures so far. This is the floor to wheel arch.
I have noticed I have some steering wear too but I think this is the near side. It has passed its MOT recently so not massively out. Its the rack as the track rod endswere both changed a year or so back and it was showing some movement at that time.

 

[koalar]

Thanks I will try and find a slider pin kit. This seems to be a double layer of rubber so must be worn after 70K at c£20 its a no brainer mfor me too. It will be interesting to see if it improves the rate of disc corrosion.

i looked at my disc yesterday

no point in photographing them again as they look exactly the same as the photo as posted on your thread last year

anti seize has no place on the brakes in my opinion. the clue is in it name anti seize not lubrication

the pads should be loose within carrier, if you put three finger on the pad when they are fitted they should rattle slightly

i have had to file some paint off before now to restore clearance.

might be different if you live near the sea but here in Cheshire its fine to fit them dry. Then the dust doesn't clog up the grease

 

[koalar]

The ride height is 61.5 and 61.8 measured on the drive so pretty level does this look right I cannot find the correct figures so far. This is the floor to wheel arch.
I have noticed I have some steering wear too but I think this is the near side. It has passed its MOT recently so not massively out. Its the rack as the track rod endswere both changed a year or so back and it was showing some movement at that time.

ePer says 63.1

my cars not here at the moment to check

i did post mine awhile back but can't find my post

hang fire yet. Its not unusual for eper to have mistakes

 

[The Panda Nut]

ePer says 63.1

my cars not here at the moment to check

i did post mine awhile back but can't find my post

hang fire yet. Its not unusual for eper to have mistakes

It sounds right. I will check for a broken spring next. Im leaning towards ordering a strut top bush and bearing and changing this before the tyres go on on thursday. I can give the lower arm a really good wiggle while its all undone. I will need to get it onto level surface to check properly. As its stopped raining I might do that shortly. Thanks for your trouble.

 

[porta]

@koalar ”
anti seize has no place on the brakes in my opinion. the clue is in it name anti seize not lubrication
the pads should be loose within carrier, if you put three finger on the pad when they are fitted they should rattle slightly
i have had to file some paint off before now to restore clearance.
might be different if you live near the sea but here in Cheshire its fine to fit them dry. Then the dust doesn't clog up the grease”

We always filed the paint off on all the contact parts of the pad and always used coppaslyp…about two years out of my apprenticeship, an older guy, Terry, joined as workshop supervisor and advised exactly as you, ‘don’t put any grease or other gunge on pads as you’re only encouraging brake dust and road dirt to clog up the grease and, therefore, the pads in the calipers’. Problem then was that they used to rattle along the road, so he showed us how to ‘sit’ (read bend) the anti-chatter springs and seat the brakes by driving forwards and backwards slamming them on, very old school but worked

 

[The Panda Nut]

Haynes's Manuel is more useless then Basil Fawlty's Manuel and doesnt quote the ride height. Maybe its time for new springs.

 

[porta]

…as for rear brake dics going rusty rather quickly, I noticed going round the big carpark in Skippo, after reading another thread on this, just how many new/ish cars all seem to have rusty rear discs and how many times I’ve had to use strip-discs and redo rear discs on my old 2005 panda 4x4

 

[koalar]

@koalar ”
anti seize has no place on the brakes in my opinion. the clue is in it name anti seize not lubrication
the pads should be loose within carrier, if you put three finger on the pad when they are fitted they should rattle slightly
i have had to file some paint off before now to restore clearance.
might be different if you live near the sea but here in Cheshire its fine to fit them dry. Then the dust doesn't clog up the grease”

We always filed the paint off on all the contact parts of the pad and always used coppaslyp…about two years out of my apprenticeship, an older guy, Terry, joined as workshop supervisor and advised exactly as you, ‘don’t put any grease or other gunge on pads as you’re only encouraging brake dust and road dirt to clog up the grease and, therefore, the pads in the calipers’. Problem then was that they used to rattle along the road, so he showed us how to ‘sit’ (read bend) the anti-chatter springs and seat the brakes by driving forwards and backwards slamming them on, very old school but worked

there's conflicting information on the internet, and a lot of information on YouTube is dangerous.

there's no right and wrong as to whether to lubricate. But if you do use the correct lubricant sparingly some good pictures here https://www.autotorque.news/the-aft...-does-not-recommend-the-use-of-copper-grease/

But I look at this way, when i am the first to change pads on a car. kia, ford and so on. There never any anti seize on, theres never a problem and only need a quick wire brush and new pads and back out

newer designed cars now have a spring shim inside the carrier to stop knocking

I have seen problems with the slid pins and anti seize. After a year or so it turns sticky and prevents them from sliding

 

[koalar]

The ride height is 61.5 and 61.8 measured on the drive so pretty level does this look right I cannot find the correct figures so far. This is the floor to wheel arch.
I have noticed I have some steering wear too but I think this is the near side. It has passed its MOT recently so not massively out. Its the rack as the track rod endswere both changed a year or so back and it was showing some movement at that time.

the obviously sag a bit over time

mine around 62 one side and 61.5 and the divers side so close enough

 

[porta]

there's conflicting information on the internet, and a lot of information on YouTube is dangerous.

there's no right and wrong as to whether to lubricate. But if you do use the correct lubricant sparingly some good pictures here https://www.autotorque.news/the-aft...-does-not-recommend-the-use-of-copper-grease/

But I look at this way, when i am the first to change pads on a car. kia, ford and so on. There never any anti seize on, theres never a problem and only need a quick wire brush and new pads and back out

newer designed cars now have a spring shim inside the carrier to stop knocking

I have seen problems with the slid pins and anti seize. After a year or so it turns sticky and prevents them from sliding

Yup forever learning, those pins on ‘modern’ calipers can be a right PITA wehn they’re gunked up…I first encountered them on the ‘new Astra’, I have to say, the old ‘angle shims’ on Fiat were a damn sight easier to strip down and clean off

 

[The Panda Nut]

@koalar ”
anti seize has no place on the brakes in my opinion. the clue is in it name anti seize not lubrication
the pads should be loose within carrier, if you put three finger on the pad when they are fitted they should rattle slightly
i have had to file some paint off before now to restore clearance.
might be different if you live near the sea but here in Cheshire its fine to fit them dry. Then the dust doesn't clog up the grease”

We always filed the paint off on all the contact parts of the pad and always used coppaslyp…about two years out of my apprenticeship, an older guy, Terry, joined as workshop supervisor and advised exactly as you, ‘don’t put any grease or other gunge on pads as you’re only encouraging brake dust and road dirt to clog up the grease and, therefore, the pads in the calipers’. Problem then was that they used to rattle along the road, so he showed us how to ‘sit’ (read bend) the anti-chatter springs and seat the brakes by driving forwards and backwards slamming them on, very old school but worked

I have used some new aluminium based stuff thats very thin on the pad seats which needed wire brushing to get rid of dust, and also cleaned the pad ends. This alu based stuff seems to dry like paint and then seems to help keep rust at bay. I never used anything for many years and never had any issues at all. Perhaps this is the rub. Copper slip and the like came along and I started using it as it was supposed to be good. It caused so many issue on the 100HP back brakes I stopped quite a few years ago, but have been tempeted to put some on the back of the pads on the basis it reduced brake squeal. I admit to having coated the retaining pins with the aluminium based 'grease' as these were quite stiff to remove. On the other hand I am happy with the retaining pins being stiff!! I think I have a holed dust seal on one caliper I dont want to take this off as the work involved in sorting it is to great inrelation to the cost of a caliper. Its working fine at present and it might just be a crease so Im leaving it be for now. The end of the slide pin was quite rusty and scabby not that this would affect things as its not on a bit that does anything but I will try and get a pair if new slides and bushes and do both sides which should help even up the pad wear a bit more. Daffo isstill declared currently unroadworthy. My definition of roadworthy is 'would make it to the far south of Italy at any time in any conditions without the need to make any checks or adjustments before setting off. And be expected to get there and back without a stutter.' So it currently currently FAILs my criteria! It hasn't had the level; of maintenance normally endowed for the last 2.5 years so I suppose its to be expected.

the obviously sag a bit over time

mine around 62 one side and 61.5 and the divers side so close enough

As near as dmmit the same as mine then.

 

[porta]

@The Panda Nut ive seen that stuff at the local factors and thought ‘wouldn’t using a dissimilar metal promote corrosion’ maybe works like graphite?!?

 

[koalar]

this is the video off the Ferodo web site skip the first 30 second intro



which is pretty much as i would do. Except i don't bother with the spray

not had to bother with grease on the back of the pads for a long time as most pads the last few years have come ready done.

pretty sure i would a clean the guide pins up in my lathe with some wire wool and spay a mist of zinc primer. Electric drill should work. I would add a smear of silicone grease to the inside the rubber boot only

 

[DaveMcT]

I have always used a light smear of high solids anti seize on brake pad sliding grooves. It has never attracted any dust. However Coppa Slip (TM) and other oily products, including red rubber grease, would be entirely unsuitable. They are sticky and will attract dust and dirt that will eventually jam the pads into their tracks.

The sliding pins are meant to be smooth but a little stiff. They exist to balance brake forces across the caliper. Those with two or more pistons do not have the sliding pins. The square seal around the piston seals the hydraulic fluid but also distorts under pressure. When pressure is released the seal literally pulls the piston back. It's only a fraction on a mm but enough so there is no binding between pads and disc. The piston will slip through the seal as the pads wear down.

I avoid silicone grease as it's too slippery causing pads to move out but not return result is a binding brake. Red rubber grease works well.

 

[vexorg]

@koalar ”
anti seize has no place on the brakes in my opinion. the clue is in it name anti seize not lubrication
the pads should be loose within carrier, if you put three finger on the pad when they are fitted they should rattle slightly
i have had to file some paint off before now to restore clearance.

The guides on the 500 were dry, and then rusty that jammed the pad on ours.

The pads should sit neat, not loose. Neat but no force required. On non-fiat, the metal spring shims hold them quite firm, even still I put a smear of copper grease on the stainless shims since they also seems to corrode with time.