Punto (Mk1) Project R the Mk1 Cabrio Restoration project

[AndyRKett]

Thanks for all the tips I will make sure the grand parents get the correct spring compressor for him

I had already planned to put all the valves, springs and everything else in some sort of order so they all go back the same, but good tip about leaving the tappets in oil, I need to get a chalk pen so I can number/mark things as they come out. The engine is quite at the moment, it actually runs really smoothly just lacks power for whatever reason, anyway

By the way, I can't help noticing your son's food bowl is empty.

Good catch I will make sure that is filled up for him this morning.

To be honest I’m just lucky all those new bits didn’t end up in the water bowl like everything else does at the moment.

 

[Didge3]

Great cars, there is a bit of a knack to using the roof properly, in their old age they tend to not open correctly without a tiny bit of help. If with the roof fully down you cant see anything out the rear view mirror aside from the roof its not folding right! There probably is a definitive fix for it but I used to just push the little bar back every time whilst it was opening

 

[AndyRKett]

Great cars, there is a bit of a knack to using the roof properly, in their old age they tend to not open correctly without a tiny bit of help. If with the roof fully down you cant see anything out the rear view mirror aside from the roof its not folding right! There probably is a definitive fix for it but I used to just push the little bar back every time whilst it was opening

Yep I have to do the roof half way down little bar twist as well, there are some straps that are supposed to pull the bar back, which are on my todo list, they should fix somewhere down near the rams for the roof mechanism I think. Mine also runs out of puff when putting the roof up it gets nearly closed then let’s gravity close it the last couple of cm I think it’s low on fluid

 

[Didge3]

Yep I have to do the roof half way down little bar twist as well, there are some straps that are supposed to pull the bar back, which are on my todo list, they should fix somewhere down near the rams for the roof mechanism I think. Mine also runs out of puff when putting the roof up it gets nearly closed then let’s gravity close it the last couple of cm I think it’s low on fluid

Glad you have it figured out. Mine did the same when closing, fluid was full I think they just stop an inch or two short and fall "gracefully" to a close?
If you leave the roof down all day you may find when you put it up it won't line up and you won't be able to latch it shut. Pretty much everyone with cabrio experience told me theirs also did this and just don't leave the roof open for hours and hours, love a 90s Fiat...

 

[AndyRKett]

Glad you have it figured out. Mine did the same when closing, fluid was full I think they just stop an inch or two short and fall "gracefully" to a close?
If you leave the roof down all day you may find when you put it up it won't line up and you won't be able to latch it shut. Pretty much everyone with cabrio experience told me theirs also did this and just don't leave the roof open for hours and hours, love a 90s Fiat...

Mine is living in the garage with the roof permanently down at the moment. It’s had a new roof at some point but by the state of the roof that was maybe 10 or more years ago.

My main problem with the roof is the switch you have to press it in just the right spot to get it to work and with about 100kg of pressure. Perfect for stranding you in the rain with the roof stuck down. Other than that it’s all good. The important thing is the electrics all work motors and hydraulics get expensive

 

[StevenRB45]

I'm enjoying the photo of the crooklok...

Who nicked it? Erm well there are 30 odd people in the UK who might be interested in spares otherwise no one..

 

[AndyRKett]

I'm enjoying the photo of the crooklok...

Who nicked it? Erm well there are 30 odd people in the UK who might be interested in spares otherwise no one..

I picked it up from Stockport…….

Probably nothing more to add

 

[the green vanper]

Beautiful car. Good luck for the rebuild!

 

[shadowdog]

Hi mate I am a newbie.
I have been reading your posts and received replies.
I admit that I did speed read your posts and replies, so I think I might have missed something. So could I politely ask a few questions about your problem and your testing? I am asking as I have the same problem with my 1.6l cabbie.
Long story! But basically. I sorn it to do a bit of a re furb on it. I kept starting her and letting her idle for 20mins or so while I was on with other stuff ie life and work . For some reason it wouldn't start and hasn't started for over a year now.
My questions are did you replace the. Plugs and carry out the same test for sparking on all the new plugs?
Have you tested the fuel pump and fuel supply and the fuel bar?
Do you have a pump, engage noise when you turn on the ignition. On on one of my cabbies I could hear the pump and the pump relay click in.
I don't think you have a blown gasket!
As you haven't mentioned any one of the tel-tail sings of a blown H/ gasket. Oil in water coolant, water contamination in engine oil, loss of water coolant, over heating, sludge in and around oil filler cap. One of the above is a good indicator for a blown H gasket.
Also, your pictures give no indication of a blown H gasket. Yes they show damage ,carbon and oil deposited in the combustion chamber BUT that is to be expected for a old car that hasn't been loved. One other big thing that leads me away from a blown H/gasket on your cabbie is your pictures of the cylinders !
If you had a blown H / gasket your pictures would have shown at least one pot that would be almost clear or clean of carbon deposits.

I would have thought that the damaged spark plug would have been your problem? And a simple fix for you?

I have replaced all the relyes on my cabbie with no joy and my pump is silent!
I don't think I have a broken plug or the timing is out? My next move is to look at the plugs as a precaution and test the HT lead the same way you tested for a spark on your plugs ! In The dark ! A damaged HT lead can sometimes light up the engine bay like a firework, most times it's a faint spark. If the ignition is turned on without turning the engine you may hear a click noise with the spark.
I am firstly going to test for a bad earth for the pump. Then plugs and HT lead test.
Hope you get her started up soon.

 

[AnthonyH]

Bugsymikes advice that you should take lots of pictures when you rebuild the engine is very sound. It could be weeks or months before you've finished and forgetting how things go back could be very time consuming or expensive to remedy. It would also be interesting to post some of them here so we can have a look!

How is the 100kg switch doing?

 

[AndyRKett]

Hi mate I am a newbie.
I have been reading your posts and received replies.
I admit that I did speed read your posts and replies, so I think I might have missed something. So could I politely ask a few questions about your problem and your testing? I am asking as I have the same problem with my 1.6l cabbie.
Long story! But basically. I sorn it to do a bit of a re furb on it. I kept starting her and letting her idle for 20mins or so while I was on with other stuff ie life and work . For some reason it wouldn't start and hasn't started for over a year now.
My questions are did you replace the. Plugs and carry out the same test for sparking on all the new plugs?
Have you tested the fuel pump and fuel supply and the fuel bar?
Do you have a pump, engage noise when you turn on the ignition. On on one of my cabbies I could hear the pump and the pump relay click in.
I don't think you have a blown gasket!
As you haven't mentioned any one of the tel-tail sings of a blown H/ gasket. Oil in water coolant, water contamination in engine oil, loss of water coolant, over heating, sludge in and around oil filler cap. One of the above is a good indicator for a blown H gasket.
Also, your pictures give no indication of a blown H gasket. Yes they show damage ,carbon and oil deposited in the combustion chamber BUT that is to be expected for a old car that hasn't been loved. One other big thing that leads me away from a blown H/gasket on your cabbie is your pictures of the cylinders !
If you had a blown H / gasket your pictures would have shown at least one pot that would be almost clear or clean of carbon deposits.

I would have thought that the damaged spark plug would have been your problem? And a simple fix for you?

I have replaced all the relyes on my cabbie with no joy and my pump is silent!
I don't think I have a broken plug or the timing is out? My next move is to look at the plugs as a precaution and test the HT lead the same way you tested for a spark on your plugs ! In The dark ! A damaged HT lead can sometimes light up the engine bay like a firework, most times it's a faint spark. If the ignition is turned on without turning the engine you may hear a click noise with the spark.
I am firstly going to test for a bad earth for the pump. Then plugs and HT lead test.
Hope you get her started up soon.

Hi and welcome

Yep in speed reading you have missed a lot, mine starts and runs, idles smoothly and drives but I feel it is still down on power. The stock engine is 85hp and while I must admit I am used to driving things more powerful this just doesn’t have the peppy get up and go like puntos are known for and it feels lacking even compared to my old 77hp Punto grande I had a few years back.

The indications are the engine may have suffered a lack of regular servicing and my next step is to take it apart and look at the insides to see if I need to rebuild it or find a new engine.

So that’s where things stand at the moment. No need to test the spark(s) as it’s firing on all 4 and running. No need to worry about fuel pumps buzzing or fuel pressure as the car drives. The issue I am having is all about power or lack there of.

If you start a new thread in the mk1 section and explain your problems in detail what you have done etc then others and myself will chip in and see what we can do to help.

The compression test that I did and you could do the same yourself for very little money (I have done a video on YouTube now to cover this) that might help you fault find your engine

 

[shadowdog]

Hi and welcome

Yep in speed reading you have missed a lot, mine starts and runs, idles smoothly and drives but I feel it is still down on power. The stock engine is 85hp and while I must admit I am used to driving things more powerful this just doesn’t have the peppy get up and go like puntos are known for and it feels lacking even compared to my old 77hp Punto grande I had a few years back.

The indications are the engine may have suffered a lack of regular servicing and my next step is to take it apart and look at the insides to see if I need to rebuild it or find a new engine.

So that’s where things stand at the moment. No need to test the spark(s) as it’s firing on all 4 and running. No need to worry about fuel pumps buzzing or fuel pressure as the car drives. The issue I am having is all about power or lack there of.

If you start a new thread in the mk1 section and explain your problems in detail what you have done etc then others and myself will chip in and see what we can do to help.

The compression test that I did and you could do the same yourself for very little money (I have done a video on YouTube now to cover this) that might help you fault find your engine

 

[shadowdog]

Hi Andy,
My apologies to you!
It's obvious that I am not a regular forum user.
I had only gone and answered a post that was posted in 2010 lol and somehow got involved with your postings, (threads) or what ever they are called lol .
PLEASE Don't ask me how ! As I don't have a clue .
But I do have some idea of what I am talking about
I have had a Punto cable of one model or other, 1.2 / 1.6 for over 35 years.
I currently own two one garaged a 1.2 and one covered a 1.6. I will put some pics up when I work out how too lol
Well that's enough of me! I don't want to dore the life out of the readers.
Back in the days of crypting tunning cars, I come across a mechanic that used a water spray bottle to clean up the inside of engines before turning them? I KNOW, I THOUGHT WHAT YOU ARE THINKING now! . But a few years ago I seen a lad on you tube actually doing it!!!!

Then we had the cars chipped or re- chipped ????
And now it's a re- map
Back in the day there was only one place that I knew of that did a re- chip in my area of the North east! Fred Perry services on the A19 North and South bound. One of his mechanics told me that I wouldn't get much improvement on the performance by doing a re-chip. As the 1.2l was under powered for the weight of the body??
Thanks for listening and understanding that I am a forum newbie user

 

[olNick]

Funny one engine flush, isn't it? Back when I was in college in London in the '60s learning my trade, my pals and I spent many happy hours up at Santa Pod watching the Drag Racing. Wynns is a very big name and sponsor so it was a brand we rapidly became familiar with and held in high regard. I remember pouring their treacly thick oil treatment - Wynns Charge? - into some of the old bangers we ran around in to cut down on oil consumption and then applying the wynns sticker proudly to the front wing just in front of the door! Then later, after my dalliance with racing, the first workshop I worked in, and then later became foreman, had a big display of Wynns products in the front accessory shop. Our boss would always upsell services by recommending flushing oil and "improvers" to the customers. Never aware of it doing any harm and it was a nice wee earner for the shop. I think we shifted quite a lot of product because the DIY brigade would always be in on Saturdays buying the products. The salesman would hold workshop demonstrations of product from time to time and the boss always let us attend - it added a nice wee extra 10 minutes or so to the morning tea break. The one which really stuck in my mind and I remember to this day was the demo of their radiator stop leak product. He took an old galvanized fire bucket and punched a few holes in it with a 6" nail. "so what's going to happen if I pour water in here"? "It's going to leak" we all yelled back at him, and it did. Then, with plenty of water still in the bucket, he poured a tin of their Stop Leak in and stirred it about. The leak stopped immediately. He held the bucket up and let us inspect it. You could see the water in the holes but it wasn't comming out! Now the clever bit he said and emptied the bucket before refilling it with fresh water whereupon it started leaking again. "So what's so clever about that" we all yelled. "The clever bit is that the product is fibrous and blocks the holes by having the fibres laying across it. When you clear the system out there's practically no residue left to block up other parts of the system and you can't say that of most other leak sealers" We used to sell quite a lot of the stuff and never had any complaints so I recon it probably worked. I've toiled over whether flushing is good or not. If the engine has frequent oil changes as recommended I don't recon it's needed. It definitely shifts crud out of old or neglected engines but I worry about its aggressive action loosening dirt from corners in lumps which might then go on to cause problems. When you strip small horticultural engines - Briggs and Stratton being a common one people will know - these engines have no filters and run basic SAE low detergent oils. If you change their oil at least once a year (I like to do one at the beginning of the season and then again mid summer. It's cheap oil and they only hold a couple of pints or so so why wouldn't you?) then they last for years. When you strip an old one down, and I've done many, you find the moving parts are nice and clean but there's hard sludge tucked away in all the corners. It just stays there and doesn't seem to play any part in harming the engine. So my theory is that it's better to let deposits like that just stay where they are or, if you must, be very slowly dissolved by an oil's detergent package rather than trying to shift it quickly and risking lumps breaking away and traveling around in the oil. Anyway, by our age Mike, we've become set in our ways and know what works for us.

Yup, keep revs within moderate limits and don't load the engine heavily at least until the coolant is fully up to temp. Remember though that the oil will take much longer. I really like that the modern VAG products allow you to bring up the oil temperature on the wee screen between the rev counter and speedo. I'm sure you mike and others on here will know but it's worth reminding everyone that, interestingly, the oil takes at least twice as long as the coolant to come up to temp from a cold start. I think this is very important on turboed engines and I never lean heavily on the throttle until the oil temp is up there. It's quite interesting keeping an eye on it on long journeys, especially when climbing long hills on the motorway - for instance climbing Shap - where it can rise noticeably due to the turbo working hard I'm sure. I think it's common now to find these small turboed units have auxilliary electric coolant pumps which maintain coolant circulation through the turbo after you shut the engine off - most now seem to have water cooled turbos - Probably a good idea but it's worth always letting a turboed engine tick over for a while after you stop moving if it's been working hard - so after climbing steep hills or stopping in a motorway service area - Why? because as soon as you turn the engine off the oil flow to the turbo bearings stops. The turbo casing and impellor spindle get blisteringly hot and if the oil doesn't flow it can be burnt onto the bearings and turbo spindle. Even just letting it idle for a couple of minutes is worth it as the turbo will be flowing cold air on it's intake side so cooling the casing and the engine oil circulating through the spindle bearings will cool them down too. One reason why turning your stop start off on longer journeys might be a good idea?

I've been forever flushing engines with ATF, 3liters oil and 1 liter ATF. Run it for 500-1000K, then do proper oil/filter change. It's easy to see the results peeking down the oil filler cap, or take the valve cover off. Spotless....
YMMV,

nick

 

[olNick]

Hi and welcome

Yep in speed reading you have missed a lot, mine starts and runs, idles smoothly and drives but I feel it is still down on power. The stock engine is 85hp and while I must admit I am used to driving things more powerful this just doesn’t have the peppy get up and go like puntos are known for and it feels lacking even compared to my old 77hp Punto grande I had a few years back.

The indications are the engine may have suffered a lack of regular servicing and my next step is to take it apart and look at the insides to see if I need to rebuild it or find a new engine.

So that’s where things stand at the moment. No need to test the spark(s) as it’s firing on all 4 and running. No need to worry about fuel pumps buzzing or fuel pressure as the car drives. The issue I am having is all about power or lack there of.

If you start a new thread in the mk1 section and explain your problems in detail what you have done etc then others and myself will chip in and see what we can do to help.

The compression test that I did and you could do the same yourself for very little money (I have done a video on YouTube now to cover this) that might help you fault find your engine

Retarded cam possibly? Don't know whether it'd show on the compression test.
Note, a vacuum gage can be very revealing

regards,
nick

 

[AndyRKett]

Thanks @olNick I don't have a vacuum gauge but its given me food for thought.

I have a few more bits on order before the engine is coming apart. one of the main ones being a timing kit, so maybe I will check the timing before I pull it apart and see what I get. The timing belt looks to be a fairly newish Gates belt so I wonder if this has been done recently and just not done properly? it's a consideration if they had managed to get it a tooth out of time then it could cause issues but still be enough to run.

I think the true reason for the lack of power is likely multi-factor with a lack of servicing, poor condition of the intake pipes, leaking exhaust. and the general crap built up on the inside of the engine. It may be I don't find the real cause but surreptitiously fix all the problems as a matter of routine as I restore the car.

Anyway the car has had to take the back burner for the last couple of weeks as I moved it out of the garage to install a 16 foot fiat sign down the side of the garage, as well as installing some insulation and more very much needed plug sockets.

 

[StevenRB45]

Anyway the car has had to take the back burner for the last couple of weeks as I moved it out of the garage to install a 16 foot fiat sign down the side of the garage

Indeed it could just be the main issue was the car was not clearly labelled..

 

[olNick]

Anyway the car has had to take the back burner for the last couple of weeks as I moved it out of the garage to install a 16 foot fiat sign down the side of the garage, as well as installing some insulation and more very much needed plug sockets.

Might want to install some 30 Amp sockets if you are thinking of running a welder etc.

 

[AnthonyH]

I was watching some Youtube vids on engine flushing last night. I've no idea how effective they are in general, but I think the older the car the more useful it would be.

 

[vexorg]

I was watching some Youtube vids on engine flushing last night. I've no idea how effective they are in general, but I think the older the car the more useful it would be.

There are known downsides, like dislodging dirt that then gets stuck somewhere more critical.
I find with engines and oil, if it's running without problems then leave well alone. A few changes with cheap oil will do.