Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Fredastaire]

@theoneandonly it's two days later, looked to amend above however that option has timed out.
Was thinking it would need Multiecuscan connected so you could view the LP EGR on screen to see that it had opened and was passing exhaust before your assistant blocked off the entry suction pipe to the air filter.

 

[priorphilip]

Hi all,
just wanna provide some experience with that LPEGR issue - incl the solution that worked out for me.
Car: Ducato 2.3 177PS. F1AGL411A Euro6 (no Adblue)

Background:
2yrs back. the engine was replaced after a disastrous cylinder head gasket break incl. water flooding the cylinders and DPF. Unfortunately the DPF wasnt replaced. It passed the routine inspection.

Problem, 2 yr later.
Since 2 month I occessionally receive P0401, P0238 and rarely P0402 and didnt pass inspection because particle count was 20x the max limit.
Allowed: 250000/cm³
Measured: 5000000/cm³. (yes, 5mio particles right after regeneration)

With help from this forum I learned where to look at - and it pointed out that the combination of pre-damaged DPR and stupid LPEGR construction caused a dead-loop. After removing LPEGR, you'll find the sieve almost completely blocks the air-flow.

Solution:
1. DPF was dead, no cleaning possible but I could get a repaired one - which means that it gets opened and the inlay is replaced. Old case but new ceramics and pre-cat.
2. Disassemble LPEGR and carefully remove sieve. Clean inner heat exchanger as good as possible.

Thats it.... I makes sense to reset DPF and self-learned parameters if possible.

Hint:
- Probably, cleaning sieve rather than removal would do same job but I dont wanna run into the same issue again just because of that nonsense sieve.
- LPEGR and DPF are located on the back-side of the engine. It is strongly recommended to remove front axle carrier just held by 6 outer-torx screws, rather than removing complete engine.

Result:
Measured after repair: 1800/cm³
Cost: 950€ DPF renewal / 8h work / good tools that do not crack when removing sensors and pipes from DPF (important)

I hope that helps

 

[ben360]

at v23 It definitely needs an update. As to Fiat not wanting to do it without a error code, we now have a way of creating a P2036,0238 at will. Trouble is there is a feeling there are scroupelous and not so out there (i think one group may not be fiat pro any more). Is there a known easy way to create a P0401 (not blocking a lpegr cooler).
ps i cant see any csv files. the other thing id like to see is number of programmings was 23 your original or one earlier.
this is my orig template 9 to copy a number of the slow moving variables eg injector codes
View attachment 443773

Hi, I think I have a dealer that will do it without a code, but I will check. they said £57 to plug it in and then the system will tell them if it needs updating or not and if it does, they will update it at no extra cost. I am guessing that if there is a newer version out there and mine shows up as 23 surely that would be grounds for an update?? I'll see if I can find the number of programmings, still getting used to the software and will do the longer test run next week once I have taxed the van.

 

[Serrow225]

It gives a clue as to what it isn't or might not be yet, but real data is the only non "guess"

I've now got multiecuscan, still playing with how to set it up and see readings, but from screen shots on forum on LP EGR position, am I right in thinking if it jumps from closed to open with no gradual increase/decrease..it suggests LP cooler blocked.. I can't do a test run yet , just running engine parked from cold at moment.
I will do a CSV file on a run out when Im confident I'm doing everything correctly.

 

[Muzz J]

401 is set when the LP EGR opens to 4.7(ish), in this position it has closed off the fresh air from the air filter, at this point the software gives a stupidly impossible demand for airflow from the HP EGR, then it triggers 401, (meaning the engine is strangled)
.
With this in mind I wonder if, with van stationary, foot on throttle to make the LP EGR work, then get an assistant to blocking off the inlet pipe of the air filter thus strangling the engine. Just a guess......(You couldn't do it with foot off as the LP EGR would be switched inactive).

WOW this stuff is unreal
I'm only new here -- no help at all mechanically
I have a 2017 SWB ducato van an I can relate to all your issues as they are also mine
I paid out $2500 to change out my EGR initially but that didn't fix my problem so went to another Fiat expert and now being told for $17000
they will look into replacing componentry but not guarantee a result

 

[theoneandonly]

WOW this stuff is unreal
I'm only new here -- no help at all mechanically
I have a 2017 SWB ducato van an I can relate to all your issues as they are also mine
I paid out $2500 to change out my EGR initially but that didn't fix my problem so went to another Fiat expert and now being told for $17000
they will look into replacing componentry but not guarantee a result

Afraid its all real. Time fome some reading

Ducato twin EGR Engine with P0401 Code (2016 to 2019)

This does not refer to earlier single EGR systems or to later AdBlu SCR engines. Note this is a guide and not definative. It is up to you to make decissions. It is the result of my investigations of data from many contributors and discussion with...

www.fiatforum.com

The best way forward is get multiecuscan upand running then get some live data and then publish csv file here or pm me and I will analyse it znd zdvise.

Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.

This was originally written to help one person with his Ducato totally new to MES to start saving data. it is not an exhaustive manual nor intended to be. Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis. Open...

www.fiatforum.com

There are other users in Oz that may better advise where to get adaptors and obd connections for multiecuscan

 

[theoneandonly]

I've now got multiecuscan, still playing with how to set it up and see readings, but from screen shots on forum on LP EGR position, am I right in thinking if it jumps from closed to open with no gradual increase/decrease..it suggests LP cooler blocked.. I can't do a test run yet , just running engine parked from cold at moment.
I will do a CSV file on a run out when Im confident I'm doing everything correctly.

Guides by theoneandonly

www.fiatforum.com

Ther are a number of guides on how to use MES
The template 9 i mentioned earlier can be done on ignition only doesnt need a warm engine. Any work on the egr walves does need a warm engine or it confuses the issues. Loosely the lpegr jumping open to closed does suggest blocked cooler. I suggest specific templates because of biult experience and i have written semi automatic spreadsheets to produce the graphs.(not excel)
Look forward to your data

 

[theoneandonly]

Hi, I think I have a dealer that will do it without a code, but I will check. they said £57 to plug it in and then the system will tell them if it needs updating or not and if it does, they will update it at no extra cost. I am guessing that if there is a newer version out there and mine shows up as 23 surely that would be grounds for an update?? I'll see if I can find the number of programmings, still getting used to the software and will do the longer test run next week once I have taxed the van.

My brain is still fuddled. You may see my answer to you in serrows answer. Template9 can be done cold.

 

[Fredastaire]

Gentlemen, much that you have a lot to read, the answers are all here on this forum post. The dealers all replace the HP EGR because the fault codes reader script says so. It's one of the software errors because it's so wrong. Fiat parts dept must be making crazy profits.
It's almost unheard of that these engines need either of the two EGRs changing.
If you read @theoneandonly scripts he helps you use Multiecuscan to identify the real problems.
Example, we know that the LP EGR should be steadily opening and closing , ie fluctuating a little to blend exhaust and fresh air and the exhaust temperature going through the LP system should vary quite hot, say 100-130 degrees. If Multiecuscan shows the LP going either full open full closed then you know it's incapable of blending and that the cooler is blocked and needs changing or cleaning. Multiecuscan can be used to show your injectors condition. The injectors are critical. The software 28 / 32 is critical. Ordinary garages won't have the knowledge that is here within these pages.
It's a sorry state that we are in with hefty repair bills through no fault of our own.
If you read back a little you will see how my Ducato is coping with a new cooler and pristine fuel. When mine gives trouble again I have another new cooler in stock, it's the lowest cost repeatable repair.
The answers are all here within these pages.

 

[Muzz J]

I am not very bright when it comes to these computer controlled vehicles
much prefer the older mechanically controlled ignition and running systems
I was totally blown away to see that the very 1st article looked at, described my vehicle exactly
Many years ago I owned a ford that continually blew fuse's . Ford said they were happy to investigate on a hourly rate to find the issue but could take days. An independent Auto electrician also gave the same answer. So instead of writing a blank cheque I persevered with the issue as it was easy to carry the correct fuse. One day I came across a fellow that knew what my problem was and the car was fixed within an hour. I suspect Ford and the Auto Elec also knew what the issue was but found a means drag out a few extra $$$$
I was not totally surprised when the Fiat Service centre basically offered to swap out every component till the accidently hit on the right answer to my problem . I have been averaging 156Km between resets for the last 10,000Km. Though this is not Ideal this system works for me at the moment.
So yes I've got a lot of reading and learning to do and hopefully I will get on top of this problem THANKs

 

[theoneandonly]

. I have been averaging 156Km between resets for the last 10,000Km. Though this is not Ideal this system works for me at the moment.
So yes I've got a lot of reading and learning to do and hopefully I will get on top of this problem THANKs

although you are living with it, it would be prudent to get on with it. Some parts you will need may need importing and a lengthy wait. Even here it can take 3 to 6 months to get parts. Given 30 mins of live data i can soon give advice.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Muzz J please please buy Multiecuscan with the connectors pair , enlist the assistance of @theoneandonly to set up the template of chosen parameters then go for a drive recording the live data. After emailing the file over he can fairly quickly turn it to graphs to analyze to establish the problem(s).
If it's 'just the blocked cooler' you could get it removed and cleaned by a local garage with ramp. I would however recommend to buy the new o ring and short rubber hose only from Fiat.
On the basis you do this please can you give us the Fiat part numbers for these two items as I want for stock.
I look forward to your next informations.

 

[proppb]

@theoneandonly
Hi I am going to start looking for a ducato with the Dual EGR system to convert to a campervan, I want a euro 6 van and the problems I have seen with Adblue are putting me off newer models.
I have read all the information on here and am going to buy a windows 10/11 laptop (mine was last used on the arc, windows 7) and multiecusacan and Bluetooth dongle.
I am writing to ask theoneandonly if when I find a vehicle that I think is suitable if it would be in order to send you the relavant traces to see if there are any problems that you can see.
Obviously this would not be a regular thing, only when I find a van that I am happy with in all other respects and I have ran multiecusacan to check the ecu firmware and any other bits I can see such as egr opening etc and I assure you would not be held accountable for any failures that occur in the future.

 

[priorphilip]

Question: Was there ever another root cause than clogged LPEGR Cooler reported for P0401/P0402/P0238 ?

 

[theoneandonly]

@theoneandonly
Hi I am going to start looking for a ducato with the Dual EGR system to convert to a campervan, I want a euro 6 van and the problems I have seen with Adblue are putting me off newer models.
I have read all the information on here and am going to buy a windows 10/11 laptop (mine was last used on the arc, windows 7) and multiecusacan and Bluetooth dongle.
I am writing to ask theoneandonly if when I find a vehicle that I think is suitable if it would be in order to send you the relavant traces to see if there are any problems that you can see.
Obviously this would not be a regular thing, only when I find a van that I am happy with in all other respects and I have ran multiecusacan to check the ecu firmware and any other bits I can see such as egr opening etc and I assure you would not be held accountable for any failures that occur in the future.

The important thing is to get familirised with using MES. the first info you need is engine ecu software version F1 information then on F4 Parameters: number of programmings. After this any simple checks need to be done on a warm engine. The easiest is a 30min run from cold and publish the csv file.

 

[Fredastaire]

@priorphilip the root cause is an imperfect DPF that passes soot during normal running.
Then we get to what is imperfect?
Imperfect might be the original production quality control, might be because of the original software causing over fuelling at the Regen causing burning if the DPF element. This over fuelling is known to wreck injectors. Wrecked injectors wrecks DPFs.
You may appreciate that it's me who started this post. Here we are some 2-3 years later and I'm still running our Ducato. There's an awful lot of opinion here as none of us are laboratory technicians or software writing experts
I'm continuing to run expensive fuel doped with millers additive, keeping spare coolers on stock and keeping fingers crossed.

 

[Serrow225]

@priorphilip the root cause is an imperfect DPF that passes soot during normal running.
Then we get to what is imperfect?
Imperfect might be the original production quality control, might be because of the original software causing over fuelling at the Regen causing burning if the DPF element. This over fuelling is known to wreck injectors. Wrecked injectors wrecks DPFs.
You may appreciate that it's me who started this post. Here we are some 2-3 years later and I'm still running our Ducato. There's an awful lot of opinion here as none of us are laboratory technicians or software writing experts
I'm continuing to run expensive fuel doped with millers additive, keeping spare coolers on stock and keeping fingers crossed.

I've still got to do my test run this weekend with multiecuscan and upload file , but thanks to theonendonly and fredastaire my desperation on problem im now optimistic it can be fixed .
And having seen 2 new vans arrive at my work , a new shape transit and Merc sprinter..(£60k) if they have problems there is no hope , it's just more tech to go wrong , I'll stick with Ducato.

 

[theoneandonly]

Question: Was there ever another root cause than clogged LPEGR Cooler reported for P0401/P0402/P0238 ?

The clogged cooler is not the root cause. Lets use the 5 whys
why do I get a P0401 et al?
Blocked cooler
why do I get a Blocked cooler?
excessive soot from DPF
why do I get excessive soot from DPF?
Cracked DPF
why do I get Cracked DPF?
Excessive temperature bad conditions durring regeneration
why do I get Excessive temperature durring regeneration?
Now we are getting closer to the root cause.
The clogged cooler is the reason for the PO401., but what is root cause.
What else do we know to drill further down into the cause
DPF gets cracked,but what causes it to crack?
1 the injection of fuel during regeneration is done using the standard injectors and not the world class method of a fifth injector. This gives the injectors a hard time and damage/ poor control more likely cleanliness issues and quality of jet control.
The function of the regeneration process is to increase the temperature above normal to facilitate the burning/conversion of soot to ash. If overfuelled we could have much higher temperature leading to cracking or melting
2 Is it poor dpf design ? Or is it poor quality dpf inner filter component ?
poor Design an interesting question, Has the part number changed since 2016 no, so design probably deemed ok, however the dpf fitted to the twin egr model was of a new concept. These engines were the first to use production variant of what is now standard manufacturing technique. Now Because of my work in materials and process development I am well aware that problems can occur in early production phases of complex ceramic processess. So were early DPFs dodgy? or more suseptible to poor temperature control?

3 Software control. The ecu software version started at 13 but by 2018 was at least 24 my van was updated to 28 in March 2019 (the latest position as I understand it is Manual V28 Comformatic V32.
Poor regen algorithm, other overfuelling issues, better callibration data with experiance of engine hours running .

4 Other Factors. It is known that number of vans came from Sevel with the wrong MAP fitted (supply issues early on) this could lead to incorrect calibration and temperature issues. In first years there were also a number of Differential DPF sensors failed and 2 versions fitted, this sensor is important in the regen process, was it important in the failure process?

Question: Was there ever another root cause than clogged LPEGR Cooler reported for P0401/P0402/P0238 ?
The definition/ reporting of a blocked cooler does not come from a collection of Fault codes but from the analysis of live data,historical data and physical observation, however, given the selection of codes the live data eventualy points to the blocked cooler.

All mostly guesswork of course (or analysis of data). I have no connection to Fiat or have had discussion with Fiat employees. I have been a Manufacturing, Production, Process Engineer within the Aerospace Industry for a while. Unfortunately i have no specific Automotive software experiance or equipment to reverse engineer Fiats software.
Hope this been helpful.

 

[MSjoberg]

I have read all the information on here and am going to buy a windows 10/11 laptop (mine was last used on the arc, windows 7) and multiecusacan and Bluetooth dongle.

It is possible to use MES with older Windows versions than 10 or 11. I use it (version 4.8) with an old Windows XP minilaptop.

 

[Hank25]

The clogged cooler is not the root cause. Lets use the 5 whys
why do I get a P0401 et al?
Blocked cooler
why do I get a Blocked cooler?
excessive soot from DPF
why do I get excessive soot from DPF?
Cracked DPF
why do I get Cracked DPF?
Excessive temperature bad conditions durring regeneration
why do I get Excessive temperature durring regeneration?
Now we are getting closer to the root cause.
The clogged cooler is the reason for the PO401., but what is root cause.
What else do we know to drill further down into the cause
DPF gets cracked,but what causes it to crack?
1 the injection of fuel during regeneration is done using the standard injectors and not the world class method of a fifth injector. This gives the injectors a hard time and damage/ poor control more likely cleanliness issues and quality of jet control.
The function of the regeneration process is to increase the temperature above normal to facilitate the burning/conversion of soot to ash. If overfuelled we could have much higher temperature leading to cracking or melting
2 Is it poor dpf design ? Or is it poor quality dpf inner filter component ?
poor Design an interesting question, Has the part number changed since 2016 no, so design probably deemed ok, however the dpf fitted to the twin egr model was of a new concept. These engines were the first to use production variant of what is now standard manufacturing technique. Now Because of my work in materials and process development I am well aware that problems can occur in early production phases of complex ceramic processess. So were early DPFs dodgy? or more suseptible to poor temperature control?

3 Software control. The ecu software version started at 13 but by 2018 was at least 24 my van was updated to 28 in March 2019 (the latest position as I understand it is Manual V28 Comformatic V32.
Poor regen algorithm, other overfuelling issues, better callibration data with experiance of engine hours running .

4 Other Factors. It is known that number of vans came from Sevel with the wrong MAP fitted (supply issues early on) this could lead to incorrect calibration and temperature issues. In first years there were also a number of Differential DPF sensors failed and 2 versions fitted, this sensor is important in the regen process, was it important in the failure process?

Question: Was there ever another root cause than clogged LPEGR Cooler reported for P0401/P0402/P0238 ?
The definition/ reporting of a blocked cooler does not come from a collection of Fault codes but from the analysis of live data,historical data and physical observation, however, given the selection of codes the live data eventualy points to the blocked cooler.

All mostly guesswork of course (or analysis of data). I have no connection to Fiat or have had discussion with Fiat employees. I have been a Manufacturing, Production, Process Engineer within the Aerospace Industry for a while. Unfortunately i have no specific Automotive software experiance or equipment to reverse engineer Fiats software.
Hope this been helpful.

I agree with most of your analysis,however,two points: you say that the latest software ecu version for manual x mission is v28.This is not what Fiat tech bulletin says.It says both auto and manual should be v32.Which would make sense if update alters fueling parameters.Also if Dpf regeneration over fueling is altered with new software update wouldn’t it be possible to see a variation in Dpf regeneration temperature by testing a before and after update with scanner?
Just my thoughts.