Tuning Twinair Remap

[rkt2003]

Very interesting ,i remember when i got my Punto 1.3 mjet the stats said it had a combined mpg figure of 80.9 and after driving it a few weeks, i thought no way i will get that but then after driving and learning i did manage to get 78 mpg brimmed a good effort with slick gear changing the display said more ....

it will be interesting if i can get this 105 twin air up to something near the claimed combined mpg of 67 ,maybe when it is a bit warmer i will try, carry on UFI , you can do it

 

[AGH1965]

UFI's shift indicator is happy with me running 100% load and it usually doesn't tell me to downshift.

Strange. Did FIAT change this on the Australian 500? What happens if you drive 80 km/h in 5th gear and then floor the accelerator pedal? The MFD in my previous 500 advised me to shift down and so does the one in my current 500.

Maybe I misunderstood the high load at moderate revs thing. UFI, did you mean when accelerating or when driving at constant speed? I thought you meant that you always accelerate with the accelerator pedal (almost) floored and shifting up early.

throttle opening is only relevant in that it's the mechanism to control load.

Don't forget the TA engine controls the load with the MultiAir intake valve control system, not with the throttle valve.

 

[UFI]

but if I spent ever driving hour worrying about how much mpg I'm getting or what peak torque is being produced or any such thing, I'd fall asleep in utter boredom! :devil:

Consider it a hobby, after a while you get in tune with your car and it just becomes second nature - it's really only the TA that remains a bit of a mystery. It's also increased my understanding of cars much more than any boy racer forums ever did. You'll be glad to know I went for a blast yesterday and got 35mpg over 80km

It's very hard to fill your tank everytime exactly to the same level, but if you don't do that, the calculated MPGs will be off. Therefore it's much better to calculate the MPGs over several consecutive tanks. I myself always use the same pump of the same gas station and park my car always exactly the same way next to the pump and always stop filling the tank the same way. Only with this procedure I find a persistent offset of the MFD of approximately 0.2 l/100km. So in my opinion the MFD of the 500 isn't useless at all.

All true. I use the same methods to refuel, but honestly, the difference between pumps might be 100ml, which really becomes insignificant if you travel 700-1200km on a tank (vehicle dependent). This is why I like to do full tank runs, it minimizes potential errors at the pump.

The problem with the MFD is it only reads between 2-25L/100km (imp mode has similar limits). If you always drive between those values you might be OK, and there will be a driving style pattern for which it's 99% accurate.

If you're often using more than 25l, you'll find the MFD is optimistic, and conversely, if you're often using less than 2l/100km, you'll find the MFD pessimistic. On my last fill, it was out by 0.6, and that will only get worse as my economy improves. This means it was out by a total of 4.3 litres over the tank, which is far more than can be accounted for by using a different bowser etc.

The worst part is this makes it very difficult to compare different techniques.

 

[UFI]

Strange. Did FIAT change this on the Australian 500? What happens if you drive 80 km/h in 5th gear and then floor the accelerator pedal? The MFD in my previous 500 advised me to shift down and so does the one in my current 500.

My MFD functions the same way. At say 50km/h roughly 25% throttle is 100% load. If I mash my foot further it will suggest I down shift.

I thought you meant that you always accelerate with the accelerator pedal (almost) floored and shifting up early.

I used to accelerate at full throttle all the time and still got good MPG (I did this based on the car staying in closed loop throughout). I now tend to accelerate at the point just before the downshift arrow comes on. Theoretically, both methods mean 100% load and closed loop, it's really closed loop enrichment that's the unknown.

Don't forget the TA engine controls the load with the MultiAir intake valve control system, not with the throttle valve.

Of course, when I say 'throttle' I really mean pedal position (it's also why I prefer to use the term 'load'), the MA system could well have other ideas If this were a throttled 1.2 I'd already be knocking on the door of 80mpg tanks. When I got my new 1.6 petrol Renault (conventional older design throttled twin cam) my first tank was already 35% better than NEDC, the TA obviously doesn't leave as much on the table., just matching NEDC will be an achievement.

 

[TheAlfacode]

i think that the initial 85 hp engine was no stressed at all and was hitting top mpg, but then came 1.0 l ecoboost with 100 bhp so fiat had to make a small-smaller tbh engine with still high mpg but powerful enough to remain in the game.

 

[306maxi]

105 was always planned.

 

[babyferrari]

Fact?

 

[babyferrari]

The 105 was used in the 500L before the 500. There are theories. But facts?

 

[TrevC]

I don't know where to find "facts" on this, but when the TA 85 was launched it the UK, it was reported in the motoring press (sourced from Fiat) that a 105 bhp version would follow later, as would a 60 bhp N/A version. This was before the 500L appeared. This suggests that Fiat always intended the 105 for the 500. Don't know if we'll ever see the 60 (not that I'm bothered!)

 

[Super Uwe]

I don't know where to find "facts" on this, but when the TA 85 was launched it the UK, it was reported in the motoring press (sourced from Fiat) that a 105 bhp version would follow later, as would a 60 bhp N/A version. This was before the 500L appeared. This suggests that Fiat always intended the 105 for the 500. Don't know if we'll ever see the 60 (not that I'm bothered!)

Yes, this 65hp TA engine is a bit of an enigma! Did a quick bit of research on other European Fiat sites, and the only country I could find that particular engine was in Holland. It's the cheapest engine for the Panda and sits below the 1.2. Happy for someone to correct me though!

It's not even sold in Italy by the looks of it, which I find pretty odd.

Going a bit off topic here mind!

 

[zanes]

Yes, this 65hp TA engine is a bit of an enigma! Did a quick bit of research on other European Fiat sites, and the only country I could find that particular engine was in Holland. It's the cheapest engine for the Panda and sits below the 1.2. Happy for someone to correct me though!

It's not even sold in Italy by the looks of it, which I find pretty odd.

Going a bit off topic here mind!

Surprised it's cheaper than the 1.2, considering amortisation of tooling, design time and what not.

Presumably it's particularly attractive in Holland for tax reasons or similar?

 

[jrkitching]

Surprised it's cheaper than the 1.2, considering amortisation of tooling, design time and what not.

Presumably it's particularly attractive in Holland for tax reasons or similar?

It's the way the world seems to work nowadays:

You price your product at the maximum you think the market will bear for the volume you want to achieve.

You produce the product in the most cost effective way possible.

The difference between the two determines whether you want to sell that particular product in that particular market.

The days of pricing a product by adding a percentage to your costs are long gone. Some product lines will be far more profitable, in percentage terms, than other ones.

 

[frupi]

Consider it a hobby, after a while you get in tune with your car and it just becomes second nature - it's really only the TA that remains a bit of a mystery. It's also increased my understanding of cars much more than any boy racer forums ever did. You'll be glad to know I went for a blast yesterday and got 35mpg over 80km

Completely understand it's a hobby and actually, I am interested to see what a normal person outside of factory conditions can get out of the TA compared to Fiat's official in house, totally unreal testing conditions. I have however formed the opinion, that many people will actually feel duped by the claimed figures, you only have to read the groans about it on this forum.

That all being said, I admit, I'm not interested any longer worrying about what our own TA does. MPG has noticeably increased from when we first bought the car as the engine has bedded in and we're actually quite happy with the average 47mpg it returns as a daily driver. And to stress the point, the ECO button is on almost all of the time, the only time it's used, is when we're overtaking HGV's on motorways and dual carriageways, just gives us that extra warm fuzzy feeling we can get past them a bit quicker.

When we refuel the car, it's always the same garage, same fuel, though I'm not fussed about which bank of pumps it comes out of, that is irrelevant, the unleaded fuel all goes into the same underground tank that the other unleaded pumps share, only the calibration of the actual pump may be different, but probably only by a fraction.

By the way, I'm certainly not glad you only achieved 35mpg over your 80km. That must have been a disappointment to you, but as long as you enjoyed the way the car munched through the fuel, then that's the main thing.

 

[ahmett]

Completely understand it's a hobby and actually, I am interested to see what a normal person outside of factory conditions can get out of the TA compared to Fiat's official in house, totally unreal testing conditions. I have however formed the opinion, that many people will actually feel duped by the claimed figures, you only have to read the groans about it on this forum.

That all being said, I admit, I'm not interested any longer worrying about what our own TA does. MPG has noticeably increased from when we first bought the car as the engine has bedded in and we're actually quite happy with the average 47mpg it returns as a daily driver. And to stress the point, the ECO button is on almost all of the time, the only time it's used, is when we're overtaking HGV's on motorways and dual carriageways, just gives us that extra warm fuzzy feeling we can get past them a bit quicker.

When we refuel the car, it's always the same garage, same fuel, though I'm not fussed about which bank of pumps it comes out of, that is irrelevant, the unleaded fuel all goes into the same underground tank that the other unleaded pumps share, only the calibration of the actual pump may be different, but probably only by a fraction.

By the way, I'm certainly not glad you only achieved 35mpg over your 80km. That must have been a disappointment to you, but as long as you enjoyed the way the car munched through the fuel, then that's the main thing.

i am permanently on 35 mpg = ), although frupi with your driving style i'd probably be doing 40 MPG with the 1.4. I think best i ever did on a tank was 42, but since 95% of my driving is start stop town driving, 35 is what i expect to be getting.

 

[frupi]

i am permanently on 35 mpg = ), although frupi with your driving style i'd probably be doing 40 MPG with the 1.4. I think best i ever did on a tank was 42, but since 95% of my driving is start stop town driving, 35 is what i expect to be getting.

Lol! I'd like to point out, I rarely drive our TA, just to the local recycling centre and very occasionally to nip to the local Tesco Express. The wife does all of the driving in the TA and she's the one who fills the car with Shell Nitro and records the mileage on Fuelly. She's actually pretty bang on with it if I say so myself. The only thing I ever get involved with, is buying cars for the wife, ensuring the car gets serviced regularly and of course, I'm the dumb git who ends up washing it all the time!

 

[Mick F]

Consider it a hobby, after a while you get in tune with your car and it just becomes second nature - it's really only the TA that remains a bit of a mystery. It's also increased my understanding of cars much more than any boy racer forums ever did. You'll be glad to know I went for a blast yesterday and got 35mpg over 80km

UFI, is it possible to say - using your obvious experience and knowledge - is there an economical speed for a 500TA 85hp?

Say the road is flat, the wind is light, and you go at a constant speed.

What it the most economical speed and in which gear?

Regards,
Mick.

 

[jrkitching]

UFI, is it possible to say - using your obvious experience and knowledge - is there an economical speed for a 500TA 85hp?

Say the road is flat, the wind is light, and you go at a constant speed.

What it the most economical speed and in which gear?

Regards,
Mick.

My best guess would be around 35mph in 5th. I'd expect the mpg curve to be fairly flat up to around 50mph and then to get significantly worse as speed increases.

 

[Mick F]

Mine too, but I think that a constant 30odd mph is probably the economical speed for just about every car.

I just wondered that UFI with his statements about 100% load had any bearing in the economy at a steady speed.

Mick.

 

[AGH1965]

The problem with the MFD is it only reads between 2-25L/100km (imp mode has similar limits). If you always drive between those values you might be OK, and there will be a driving style pattern for which it's 99% accurate.

That the MFD doesn't show the right value when the actual fuel consumption is lower than 2 l/100km or higher than 25 l/100km doesn't mean that these clipped values are used for calculating the mean value! These clipped values are just a visualisation. Apparently FIAT's engineers expect that some drivers will panic when they see values below 2 or above 25 l/100km... However, even the EcoDrive program logs the actual fuel flow in l/h with 1 Hz to the USB stick without such stupid clipping.

 

[AGH1965]

Don't know if we'll ever see the 60 (not that I'm bothered!)

Come to the Netherlands if you want to see it. We have the TA60 now, but already in 2012 we had the TA65. Both have 964 cc instead of the 875 cc the TA85 and TA105 have.