Technical The one and only Dualogic failure thread

[varesecrazy]

Hi Frankie.
And sorry this issue has brought you here.

Ok.. so the servicing..
all FIAT maindealer? The place you have now gone to??

This system is more needy than a conventional auto.. with its own specific oil. Etc

Lots of indy garages wont touch them.. so there is a chance it is low on its SELESPEED FLUID.

When it failed.. what happened.. went into Neutral.. and wouldnt engage drive?

Who recovered it.. did they perform plug.in diagnostics?

All good info for us to summise what is likely to be going on

Charlie

 

[FrancescaM]

Hi Charlie.

Thanks so much for coming back to me.

FIAT have completed all services yes but not the garage I got it from.
I got it from a different location.

They said that all fluid/Oil levels have been checked.
When It failed the car went into Neutral. Beeping away at me saying Transmission error see handbook.

I turned my car off, then on again and got approx 10 miles until it done it again at a roundabout. again another 10 miles and almost home. It done it approx 6 times but the first being the worst I went the backroads and kept at 20MPH as was very scared.

Diagnostics showed an error with transmission they said which related to the gearbox actuator but as said now .. no error messages showing.

Best Regards
Frankie

 

[varesecrazy]

Ok.

So it SHOULD have been serviced properly.. to the book..

So NO easy get.out from FIAT..

Being a 2013 car and with no warranty implied...
If it was my twinair
I would find an alternative repairer..

An Alfaromeo specialist will have seen these gearbox things for 20 years.

Have the correct kit..

And labour rates will be significantly lower.

Do continue to pester FIAT UK for assistance.. but you may wait a considerable time.

Charlie

 

[irc]

Just a couple of quick thoughts:

Selespeed fluid should never get low unless there is a leak. If there is a leak, repair or replacement are the only real options.

"No errors" almost always means someone not using the right tool to read the codes, or that someone has cleared the codes and there is not currently an error condition.

Many "dualogic" problems are actually also suffered by non-Dualogic cars, but the problem had less effect because, for example, a manual gearbox won't stop working because your brake lights are faulty. A Dualogic car relies on knowing when you are braking, and will try to choose the safest option when it can't tell, i.e. go into Neutral.

Similarly, fluctuating voltage from a nearly-dead battery might throw a few weird dashboard errors on a Manual car, but will disable a Dualogic one.

A worn out clutch plate on a Manual car gives lots of warning before it gives up completely. A Dualogic will reach a point where it knows the clutch is beyond useful life and will try to stop using it. (This also seems to often be interpreted as a Dualogic failure.)

I find it scary to think how many perfectly good actuators have been scrapped because of pathetically bad diagnosis of basic electrical issues. Also ECUs. Or even whole cars...

Trouble is, mention that you have a Dualogic, Selespeed or Semi-auto gearbox and a lot of places run for the hills.

It could be a good time for various Dualogic-aware forum members to put together a list of things to check. (I'm planning on doing some experiments on a spare actuator when the weather is warmer, but that won't help right now)

I'll gladly chip in if someone wants to open a new thread for Dualogic diagnostics, but I think this one could be a bit too negative to point newbies to, especially when someone has just told them they need a new actuator. More so if they only really need a new battery. Or brake switch.

 

[p6baseunit]

Hi Charlie.

Thanks so much for coming back to me.

FIAT have completed all services yes but not the garage I got it from.
I got it from a different location.

They said that all fluid/Oil levels have been checked.
When It failed the car went into Neutral. Beeping away at me saying Transmission error see handbook.

I turned my car off, then on again and got approx 10 miles until it done it again at a roundabout. again another 10 miles and almost home. It done it approx 6 times but the first being the worst I went the backroads and kept at 20MPH as was very scared.

Diagnostics showed an error with transmission they said which related to the gearbox actuator but as said now .. no error messages showing.

Best Regards
Frankie

[FONT=&quot]I find the Dualogic on the Euro 6 TwinAir a nice set up and very smooth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There is no servicing requirements listed for the Dualogic unit, so on servicing I doubt Fiat even looked at the level of the oil in the unit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Also to note, you have to depressurise the unit to check the level. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Normally the unit only drops out of gear, due to low hydraulic pressure in the gearbox control unit or an electrical fault – think brake pedal sensor and gear lever unit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If the error suggested the gearbox control unit, then it’s either leaking or the pump is failing/has an issue.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When you first get in the car in the morning and you open the driver´s door, you should hear the pump run. How many seconds is it running for? Should be around 5-7 Seconds to prime the unit. The pump has brushes and doesn´t last forever.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The accumulator (https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=5986&sku=64964) also doesn´t last for ever.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As suggested an Alfa specialist should be up for the work, as they see Selespeed gearbox control units all the time and this is what the Dualogic unit is. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I have check out the location of the dealer and Google suggests that your Suffolk/Norfolk way. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I notice this Fiat/Alfa specialist comes highly rated on Google - https://www.thefiatandalfaromeospecialists.co.uk/ They are in Bury St Edmunds[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=6510&sku=256809[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Actuator[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=6510&sku=256809[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Pump[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=22509&sku=270513[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Complete unit[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Above are the links with Shop4Parts gives you the reference to the unit parts. Shop4parts used to do the complete gearbox control unit for a lot cheaper.. If you donate to the forum, you get a 10% discount code for Shop4parts[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-500-0-9-Twin-Air-Selespeed-Repair-Seals-Dualogic-Gearbox-semi-auto-Actuator/223318690101?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140107083358%26meid%3D5bcd9ce2a8ee466681a3bff2ec8a50c7%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D222923717129%26itm%3D223318690101&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This guy on eBay is able to sell you a repair kit for the actuator or is able to recondition the unit for you… So if the Specialist is unable to… perhaps they can remove it and send it for reconditioning?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The gearbox control unit can be removed and replaced in a couple of hours by a competent DIY mechanic with the multiscan software… So keep in mind it isn´t rocket science[/FONT]

 

[p6baseunit]

Hey ...

I am also new desperately seeking any advise.
I am the owner of a 2013 fiat 500 0.9 twinair dualogic.

I was on a motor way doing 60PMG when my car transmission cut out.
I had to swerve into a verge and still not sure How I alive.

The only pre signs to this was my car screaming in 2nd gear going into 3rd in the auto mode. Sometimes it would take a good 10 seconds.


OK, so from what little you have said, suggests that the control unit is having problems getting the gearbox into gear.

Can you hear the pump running? How often?
The control unit will have the same issues as a driver in a manual car, getting into gear, if the clutch is worn/damaged - but dropping out of gear suggests a hydraulic issue.


When I took my car into Desira (Fiat franchise) they told me I needed a new actuator or gearbox or both! The cost - £2400.00. a test also was needed £300.00 to confirm the actual problem? A car only done 40K full service historyand lightly used?? So thats when I contacted FIAT HQ so make a complaint.


This is the same crap you get from many manufactors´ dealers and its why people love lease cars - you give them back after 3 years and get a new one


They advised me to have this further diagnostic, and I had no choice. I called 3 other garages who declined the work and refused to look at this type of car.

after a few days Desira called to say that my car was now not showing any errors.
Even though they had said it was the actuator or gearbox or both?!

So now I ask .. what is wrong with it then!!! They said they would have to take a guess and not a fact and go with Clutch and flywheel but are not surer at all and the car requires a 7hr labour strip down .. The cost £760.00!!!!

This is where I currently am. FIAT UK not giving a flying Toss and I am very upset and angry.


I am not suprised that Fiat are unwilling to help on a 5 to 6 year old car


I have now reached breaking point and after reading so many of the same problems I am thinking of building a case and going to the Motor Ombudsmen.


There is something in the region of 60-65 complaints about this gearbox control unit across 35 pages of this forum. Fiat have sold 10000s of Dualogic 1.2 and TwinAirs across Europe - not forgetting that the same unit is fitted to Pandas and some Puntos. This doesn´t make the issue common - annoying and sometimes expensive but not common.


How does a Fiat specialist tech no know whats wrong with a car??
are they hiding something??

Contrary to what the forum suggests, Fiat dealers don´t see the issue enough to have much experience from it


Is this 7hr labour strip down to get rid of me?


They are saying they have no clue, so they want to remove the gearbox control unit, the gearbox and inspect the clutch and flywheel. Sounds reasonable, if you want to inspect the control unit and replace the clutch/flywheel at the same time.... but really they haven´t a clue!

As above

 

[whit05]

Hi, could do with some help.

Was driving in very heavy rain (not sure if this matters) yesterday when all of a sudden my Fiat 500 2010 dualogic got stuck in 2nd gear. Then after fiddling with it, it changed from 2nd gear to neutral. Now it’s stuck in neutral and had to tow it home.

I can still hear the hydraulic pump priming when I open the drivers door. Brake lights are also working so it’s not a faulty brake switch.

The “transmission fault” warning symbol flashes.
And the messages that come up on the dashboard are:
Check transmission
ASR disconnected
ABS unavailable
Hill Holder unavailable
ESC unavailable


What could be the cause of this?? Any ideas? Thank you

 

[irc]

If there is no fluid leaking under the car, I would start by checking your battery, earth leads, brake pedal switch, and then (most likely but more effort) your tailgate wiring.
If you eliminate all of those (forum search will find info on how to...) then it may be something more complicated, but don't cross that bridge until you get there.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi, could do with some help.

The “transmission fault” warning symbol flashes.
And the messages that come up on the dashboard are:
Check transmission
ASR disconnected
ABS unavailable
Hill Holder unavailable
ESC unavailable


What could be the cause of this?? Any ideas? Thank you

Hi.
Good proportion of those are common across all fiats no matter which
Engine or gearbox.

And are generally down to power supply


Have a read

https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto/318839-electrical-gremlin-thread.html

Charlie

 

[whit05]

So I took you guys’ advice. Checked for leaks and corrosion, there was none. So checked battery and it was only on 55%. Charged it up to 100%. Started the car and now the gears are changing again and the car moves! I had no idea that a low battery could cause this. The AA man convinced me that my gearbox was a dud.

Now, only issue is that the warning messages still show up on the dash? “Check transmission” and ASR, ABS, ESC and hill holder are still unavailable. How do I get these features to work again?

 

[whit05]

There’s a button for “ASR off” that’s illuminated and when I press it, it still doesn’t turn the ASR on. I won’t be driving the car until I get the ASR/ABS/ESC warnings sorted but I’m just happy my gears work again

 

[whit05]

So just when I thought the problem was fixed, it’s not. Bought a new battery. Car no longer has any warning messages/symbols on dash and ASR etc are working again. BUT it’s now stuck in reverse gear. Had 3 mechanics look at it and they all don’t know what’s wrong with it. Only suggest towing it to a Fiat dealership but it can’t be towed because it’s stuck in reverse now. Very annoying and I’m stuck at this point

 

[Chipotec0]

Thanks for the clarification p6baseunit,

I checked the selespeed oil level (waited overnight) and its little bit under the min mark. (pics attached) also found a small oil leak from the position sensor.
Think this can also be a reason for sudden neutrals.

Anyone know a place to buy the o rings/oil seals for this unit?
found some items on ebay and they are way expensive.

In case this information is still needed. Here you can get them in Brazil: https://www.motortechoficina.com.br/

 

[cubic25]

Hey all,
I'm just looking for any info on the Doblo's dualogic. I am seriously considering buying a new Doblo. It is a 2018 with the 5 speed dualogic.
I've noticed that the manual version of this van with the same engine has 90Nm more torque, at 290Nm and 77Kw, whilst the dualogic has 200Nm and 66kw. Is this because the dualogic can't handle more than 200Nm?
Can anything be upgraded so that it handles more torque?
Also, being a 2018 model, are they fairly reliable now?
Lastly, can anybody tell me which dualogic it uses? As I understand that there is a few different ones out there.
Thanks heaps in advance.
I've also posted in the Doblo section, but it seems to be very quiete over there.

 

[p6baseunit]

Hey all,
I'm just looking for any info on the Doblo's dualogic. I am seriously considering buying a new Doblo. It is a 2018 with the 5 speed dualogic.
I've noticed that the manual version of this van with the same engine has 90Nm more torque, at 290Nm and 77Kw, whilst the dualogic has 200Nm and 66kw. Is this because the dualogic can't handle more than 200Nm?
Can anything be upgraded so that it handles more torque?
Also, being a 2018 model, are they fairly reliable now?
Lastly, can anybody tell me which dualogic it uses? As I understand that there is a few different ones out there.
Thanks heaps in advance.
I've also posted in the Doblo section, but it seems to be very quiete over there.

Hi there, the Dualogic unit in this section only fits the 5 Speed boxes on the TwinAir/1.2/older 1.4 - So the Doblo unit and gearbox are different yes.

They are fairly reliable yes... Fiat sells thousands of them across Europe and there are some 70ish complaints on here.

I have just part ex my Jan 2014 0.9 TwinAir Dualogic with 55000 miles on the clock... Had it from new for over 5 years... The engine and gearbox where a dream, no issues in that time. Wish I could say the same for the suspension though.

I would go for one of the more powerful turbo diesels and get a manual version... assuming you can drive a manual!

A manual gearbox is always going to be more reliable - same with all autoboxes!

 

[Liblet]

Hello All,
This is my first post. I have recently bought a 2014 Twin Air with 40,000Km on the clock. I was having probs getting it to from reverse into first without having to turn the engine off. I was told before purchasing it that the gearbox had been replaced while the car was still under warranty and before proceeding with sale I verified this verbally with the Fiat dealership who had carried out the repairs. I was told by phone that a new gear box had not been installed but rather all new components had been placed in the gearbox. I was told this work was under warranty.
I took the car to the dealership who had done these repairs to have the car checked out and was told I need a new actuator at a cost of ~ $AU 8000.00.
I asked the dealership to take this up with Fiat Australia ( apparently Fiat Australia will only allow you to go through the dealership in the first instance). FA has come back and said in the first instance I need to replace the accumulator diaphragm at a cost of $AU845.00.
The service guy is very half hearted in his belief that this will solve the problem.
Has anyone out there had any experience of this?
Thanks in anticipation

 

[John202020]

It would be cheaper to import a new actuator from here look on www.shop4parts.co.uk

 

[irc]

Hello All,
This is my first post. I have recently bought a 2014 Twin Air with 40,000Km on the clock. I was having probs getting it to from reverse into first without having to turn the engine off. I was told before purchasing it that the gearbox had been replaced while the car was still under warranty and before proceeding with sale I verified this verbally with the Fiat dealership who had carried out the repairs. I was told by phone that a new gear box had not been installed but rather all new components had been placed in the gearbox. I was told this work was under warranty.
I took the car to the dealership who had done these repairs to have the car checked out and was told I need a new actuator at a cost of ~ $AU 8000.00.
I asked the dealership to take this up with Fiat Australia ( apparently Fiat Australia will only allow you to go through the dealership in the first instance). FA has come back and said in the first instance I need to replace the accumulator diaphragm at a cost of $AU845.00.
The service guy is very half hearted in his belief that this will solve the problem.
Has anyone out there had any experience of this?
Thanks in anticipation

Hi.
Got a couple of questions...
What does it actually do when you change from reverse into first? (Beeps, message, noises, etc.)
Does it have problems going the other way?
When you do this, are you definitely completely stopped, foot on brake?
Does it do the same with handbrake on too?
What happens if you change to Neutral, pause, and then into first? (5 seconds pause or more?)

In particular, beeps, messages and noises (gearbox clunk/grind, pump motor start stop, etc) while problem occurs would be good to know.

Doesn't sound accumulator-related to me, but....

 

[Liblet]

Thanks for your reply
When I try to go from reverse into 1 it goes into neutral, beeps and N flashes on the dash. Same can happen when starting from neutral trying to go into 1st.
It has happened once when I was manoeuvring out of a parking space without foot on the brake.
I don't know if it does it with the handbrake on. I will try it
Nothing will shift it unless I turn the engine off and start again. I have tried pausing, pausing + swear, swear alone...all to no advantage. And I can do a pretty mean swear in Italian
No clunks or grinds. At the service centre they said there is loss of pressure in the actuator causing the pump to come on every 40 secs

Hi.
Got a couple of questions...
What does it actually do when you change from reverse into first? (Beeps, message, noises, etc.
Does it have problems going the other way?
When you do this, are you definitely completely stopped, foot on brake?
Does it do the same with handbrake on too?
What happens if you change to Neutral, pause, and then into first? (5 seconds pause or more?)

In particular, beeps, messages and noises (gearbox clunk/grind, pump motor start stop, etc) while problem occurs would be good to know.

Doesn't sound accumulator-related to me, but....

 

[irc]

Does it ever have problems with any other gearchanges?
If it's only when changing direction, I would change out the brake pedal switch as an experiment. Also check & clean up the connectors on the rear light clusters (sounds flaky, but can cause weird problems)

If the pressure readings really are as described, it could be accumulator.

If you turn on the ignition without starting, and select gears, how many changes do you get between pump running?