Technical The one and only Dualogic failure thread

[cotswoldtony]

Moderators Note:

I've started this thread to put all the currently active dualogic failure posts into one place.

The story begins here...

Hi All

Newbie here!....

I purchased my Fiat 500 dualogic new in 2010.....roll forward nearly 5 yrs & apart from a couple of minor niggles I find myself with the prospect of a new gearbox needed

Over the past month my car had developed the tendamcy to hate changing into reverse, flinging itself into neutral whenever it felt like, including a terrifying incident at speed when suddenly braking Driving in auto or manual mode did not seem to make a difference...

Off it went to dealer who after a few days of diagnostics & road tests cleared the ECU memory & other stuff (apologies as I am no means converse in the ways of cars!) ......fast forward & after 2 days it all started happening again...

Back to dealers & now they've stated it needs a new gearbox!!.....at the cost of.........£1300!!!

They suggested I rang Fiat Customer Care which I did today & they have opened a "complaint case" for which I have a ref number & one of their team will contact me in a couple of days....

Is there anything else I can do!?!....

Ps.....car has only 22,000 on clock & FSH

Many thanks for reading!

Sarah

:bang:
Hi I am a New Member,
My partner has a Fiat 500 Dualogic and I had to explain to her that it is not an automatic gearbox so it will not drive like other automatic cars she has driven.
The Dualogic has the M20 AMT (Automated Manual Transmission) gearbox which does not need servicing like the modern Tiptronic Auto Transmission so it has cheaper running costs.
The M20 Gearbox is very reliable but the operating system like most vehicles today is via an electronic TCU (Transmission Control Unit).
The good news is the working components are fitted to the outside of the gearbox and rarely does the gearbox need to be removed.
I have pointed out to my partner not to slam the driver's door as the gearbox pump switch is fitted to the door catch assemble so opening/closing the drier's door turns the transmission pump on and off.
I can only point out main agents will reset the TCU and replace expensive components to fix a Dualogic.
My partner's Fiat Main Agent did not even know her car was fitted with the M20 AMT Gearbox when she asked if they had serviced her automatic transmission on the major service.
I hope this helps.
Regards Tony

 

[44sunsets]

:bang:
The Dualogic has the M20 AMT (Automated Manual Transmission) gearbox which does not need servicing like the modern Tiptronic Auto Transmission so it has cheaper running costs.

Thanks for this info. Do you know if all Dualogic 500 models have the M20 AMT or is it only the newer ones?

I did some googling for the M20 AMT and it turns out some interesting documentation, for those interested in such things:
http://fcconnect.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/Fiat-Dualogic-M20-Training-Manual.pdf

 

[ahmett]

Thanks for this info. Do you know if all Dualogic 500 models have the M20 AMT or is it only the newer ones?

I did some googling for the M20 AMT and it turns out some interesting documentation, for those interested in such things:
http://fcconnect.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/Fiat-Dualogic-M20-Training-Manual.pdf

funny because that was produced in 2006 = ) wonder what the latest version is

 

[Barone]

Hello all. 2006 1.4 Punto Grande here. I have owned the car 1 week. Drove 5 miles and gearbox went into neutral when I was doing 30 mph. Managed to find gears after rebooting twice and drove home. Got it picked up by garage Monday and they checked everything but couldn't find anything wrong apart for some odd error codes. Tuesday: car locked into neutral and they cannot move it. Contacted the car dealer who has gone down there with a scanner today. Got to be careful, I haven't got his proper address or full name. Yes, I know but I had to have him come to my house as I am disabled. Definitely can't afford the amount of money being mentioned on here, so this could mean an end to my motoring career if the dealer comes up short. Not a way to end over 50 years of motoring.

Salutary tale: Before buying the car, I Googled "Fiat Punto Problems" and had quite a few come up with electric power steering issues. ZERO mention of Dualogic gearbox. Now I know specifically the correct search terms, I am now reading the kind of horror stories that would have sent me in the opposite direction.

I would add a caveat. I think the system is fine and it works really well when it works. The problem is with FIAT! They have not built an aftermarket parts structure or routine service schedule for the gearbox peripherals (apart from plugging it in) and that is why there is no aftermarket expertise, yet. I guess their marketing department weren't all worried by the prospect of thousands of dissatisfied owners of pre-owned cars impacting on their new sales. But it will.. Thanks for listening. I have suggested the dealer supplies me with another car but he wants to check this one first. I will check back here when I have news...

 

[varesecrazy]

Hello all. 2006 1.4 Punto Grande here. I have owned the car 1 week. Drove 5 miles and gearbox went into neutral when I was doing 30 mph. Managed to find gears after rebooting twice and drove home. Got it picked up by garage Monday and they checked everything but couldn't find anything wrong apart for some odd error codes. Tuesday: car locked into neutral and they cannot move it. Thanks for listening. I have suggested the dealer supplies me with another car but he wants to check this one first. I will check back here when I have news...

Hi, sounds like a typical issue, whereby the car just keeps being sold around in the trade.., :bang:
things CAN and DO go wrong.. but not after a couple of days, :nono:
A Friend had this with a VW last week- had to demand a refund..
silver lining though - they bought a FIAT instead

 

[jrkitching]

The problem is with FIAT!

I'd agree, though it's questionable whether the business practices of other marques are that much better when dealing with a car that will see its tenth birthday next year.

The reality is that Fiat will view a 2006 car as being 'end-of-life' and likely have no interest whatsoever in keeping such a vehicle on the road at reasonable cost, hence they don't make either the documentation or the necessary spare parts readily available to enable a dualogic unit to be economically repaired.

From a main dealer's perspective, your car has done its job and it's now time to take it to a suitable recycling facility to make way for another new car sale.

 

[ahmett]

Hello all. 2006 1.4 Punto Grande here. I have owned the car 1 week. Drove 5 miles and gearbox went into neutral when I was doing 30 mph. Managed to find gears after rebooting twice and drove home. Got it picked up by garage Monday and they checked everything but couldn't find anything wrong apart for some odd error codes. Tuesday: car locked into neutral and they cannot move it. Contacted the car dealer who has gone down there with a scanner today. Got to be careful, I haven't got his proper address or full name. Yes, I know but I had to have him come to my house as I am disabled. Definitely can't afford the amount of money being mentioned on here, so this could mean an end to my motoring career if the dealer comes up short. Not a way to end over 50 years of motoring.

Salutary tale: Before buying the car, I Googled "Fiat Punto Problems" and had quite a few come up with electric power steering issues. ZERO mention of Dualogic gearbox. Now I know specifically the correct search terms, I am now reading the kind of horror stories that would have sent me in the opposite direction.

I would add a caveat. I think the system is fine and it works really well when it works. The problem is with FIAT! They have not built an aftermarket parts structure or routine service schedule for the gearbox peripherals (apart from plugging it in) and that is why there is no aftermarket expertise, yet. I guess their marketing department weren't all worried by the prospect of thousands of dissatisfied owners of pre-owned cars impacting on their new sales. But it will.. Thanks for listening. I have suggested the dealer supplies me with another car but he wants to check this one first. I will check back here when I have news...

sorry that you joined the dualogic failure club. It is a club with an ever increasing list of members and a very expensive club to keep membership.

if you type selespeed or dualogic in google you will see how many problems appear = )

 

[Mercky]

So is there generally a single point of failure here or is it a mix of problems?

 

[ahmett]

So is there generally a single point of failure here or is it a mix of problems?

Basically, when the dualogic gearbox starts to leak hydraulic fluid, it starts causing problems. When this happens, it does not necessarily mean that it will leave you stranded on the side of the road, but it will definitely start acting weird. This will involve things like going randomly into neutral, refusing to change gears intermittently, and now and then the transmission light going on and off. If not fixed, it will eventually collapse completely meaning there is no fluid passing around the system and it will either be stuck in gear (Really bad as you cant even tow it) or get stuck in netural (at least easy to tow).

The problem is, diagnostics equipment will show a problem and some individuals may just top up the oil if they check it to be low, but the only real fix is to replace the whole actuator unit. This is what Fiat does (unless they are in warranty and will then fix it to the minumum and change 1 or 2 parts to get it back on the road and then not care until it breaks out of warranty and then you have to pay for the repair.) This is exactly what happened to me. This costs a good 1200 GBP or so.
Now, several people have mentioned that fixing individual parts can also fix the problem and cost about 400-500 GBP, but in my experience this is not a permanent fix and the problems will eventually start happening again 6 months - 2 years after fixing some parts of the actuator.

So all in all yes, once it starts acting weird, be worried, very worried. I bet many people who start having problems simply trade in the car, flodding the market with dodgy dualogics. The problem is, someone not knowing the nature of the car may very well test drive the car without the dualogic acting weird or not notice anything unnormal after the seller has cleared the codes, until they drive it for a few days in all conditions (when the box is cold it is much worse) and then realized that they bought a broken car! That's when the problems start. Either a fight with the seller who will claim they have no idea whats wrong, or a trip to Fiat, which will wash their hands off the problem if out of warranty unless you pay them 1200 GBP minimum.

 

[Barone]

OK all, here's an update. I feel this is important for people with pre-owned older cars to fully understand.

Bearing in mind I only drove this car for 5 miles before the gearbox failed, I took it to a perfectly competent garage to check over and report back. When they picked the car up, it decided to work perfectly as it did all the first day. The 2nd day, it stuck in neutral again with warning messages about gearbox failure and the dreaded and very annoying warning chimes.

I think I am extremely LUCKY it happened because all that would have happened otherwise is, I would have got it back again only for it to inevitably fail again when I had lost leverage against the car dealer, i.e. after 30 days.

The garage then spent 5 days trying to find the fault never mind rectifying it. In the end, they came up with "pump failure" but still no clue as to the correct procedure to fix it, and this is the crux of the problem.NO-ONE outside of a Fiat specialist or a Fiat Dealership will be able to fix it (and even then it's 50/50). That is the risk that owners of pre-owned cars are taking.

I think it's a fine system. I really enjoyed the 5 miles or so I drove in it. It was unlike anything I have experienced in 50 years of motoring and was obviously well engineered. Fine as long as there is a warranty covering it but risky after that.

The dealer said he was broke and couldn't refund me so I opted for a lesser value Renault with a manual box. It's far bigger and thirstier than I wanted but I am so relieved to have got shot of the Fiat.

Thanks for all the info posted here, I hope my experience will help someone contemplating getting a car with one of these boxes. Please don't take the extreme financial risk and walk away even though the car is fine...

So, goodbye Fiat people. It was lovely while it lasted and now, I have to learn all the niggles that the dastardly French have engineered into the Megane just for the English

As they say in Rome - Ciao baby...

 

[Melanabb]

I'm so sorry you had to get rid, but it is a cautionary tale for other second hand 500 dualogic wannabes... Best buy new or avoid!

Wishing you all the best with the new car. I just traded my Punto Abarth for Renault Twingo and I don't regret it for a moment! Good luck!

 

[Barone]

Cheers man...

Now, where's that Megane Owners forum?:bang:

 

[varesecrazy]

Cheers man...

Now, where's that Megane Owners forum?:bang:

thanks for getting back to us,

(personally I believe you were legally obliged to a full refund..)

"Bon Chance" with the Renault

 

[varesecrazy]

Basically, when the dualogic gearbox starts to leak hydraulic fluid, it starts causing problems. When this happens, it does not necessarily mean that it will leave you stranded on the side of the road, but it will definitely start acting weird.

It's a PART of the Control System that needs service / replacement,

NOT the GEARBOX - that'll contain GEAROIL.

 

[Barone]

thanks for getting back to us,

(personally I believe you were legally obliged to a full refund..)

"Bon Chance" with the Renault

Cheers mate. Under the revised Consumer Rights Act October 2015, I am entitled to a full refund if rejected within 30 days as not fit for purpose. In other words if described as "good runner" clearly it wasn't. If after this time, then the onus is on you to prove that it as inherently defective at time of purchase. Then it becomes a "battle of experts". Interesting to note that you have these rights whether or not there is any warranty implied or otherwise.

I had no choice as the dealer said he was broke and couldn't refund the money. Couldn't/wouldn't, who knows. I did the best I could given the circumstances. At least I can now get around @ Christmas, as soon as I sort out that bald tyre, indicator bulb and pay an extortionate £180 for car tax...

 

[Barone]

Right. I've done 5 posts now I can post a link to the blurb on Consumer Rights Act. It might just help someone..

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...car-i-bought-has-a-problem-what-are-my-rights

 

[jrkitching]

(personally I believe you were legally obliged to a full refund..)

Having rights is one thing. Being able to enforce them in practice against a stubborn, cash-poor seller is another thing entirely.

If you take the seller to Court, it will likely be at least six months before you get any money back, and if the seller goes bankrupt or puts the company into administration before then, you likely won't get a penny and you'll still have to pay the Court fees. Plus you won't be able to use the car during that time, so you'll need more ready cash now to buy another one. Do not underestimate the stress or hassle of enforcing your legal rights in this way, even if you do it yourself. Even if you win your case and get your money back, you'll still end up losing a great deal of time and peace of mind.

Been there, done that, got the Tshirt.

Pragmatically, accepting another car was likely the OP's only chance of being mobile this Christmas. Sometimes doing what's necessary has to take priority over doing what's right.

I can't help wondering what'll happen to the old car. For some reason, I'm not seeing 'it'll get repaired properly before being sold on to the next unsuspecting punter' as the most likely outcome. Worryingly, although this is the end of the story for the OP, it might not be the end of the story for the thread.

Despite all the progress that's been made with consumer rights legislation, the old adage of 'buyer beware' is still as valid as ever. Large numbers of cars get traded in because their owners know there is an expensive repair in the offing. Almost all get sold on before that repair ever happens.

 

[liav24]

Damn this just keeps on popping..

Has anybody else replaced the whole robot unit of the Dualogic beside me and Ahmett?

 

[Dshear]

500 duo logic repair Australia how to get contribution

Hi I have issue with 500 (2010 model) in Sydney Australia with duo logic problem well reported in forums. Slips out of drive into neutral, does not engage 1st gear etc) Does anybody have advice as to how to get Fiat Australia to provide "out of warranty" contribution to fix. Any help appreciated as this seems to be more than fair wear and tear problem.

 

[Dshear]

Hi. I note from multiple comments that duo logic has a problem. I am based in Sydney Australia and have similar problem with 2010 fiat 500 1.4 litre duo logic with minimum miles. The car has problems selecting 1st/drive from neutral at start and also goes into neutral while decelerating which is very disconcerting. Has anybody got experience with getting assistance in repair from Fiat Australia. Looks like not just a fair wear and tear issue but not reasonably fit for purpose. Any advice in getting Fiat to come to the party would be appreciated.