Technical The Old P0016

[Akd]

Hello there!
I recently did a timing belt change on my 1.4 and got the p0016 fault code. (After searching, I’ve seen this code has been talked about a few times before). I can delete the code with a cheap obd scanner and drive the whole day perfectly fine, engine running smooth. But once you cold start the car, the fault will come back. The belt has been checked and refitted (with the correct locking tools) and timing checked as well.

From what I’m reading it’s most likely a sensor fault, but before throwing myself in I wanted to hear if anyone (previous posters or others) has had any luck getting rid of the code permanently and would mind sharing their experience.

Any advice on where to start is greatly appreciated.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Ha ha, another one. Easiest engine on the planet and each year someone gets P0016 or similar code. And he "must" start new thread on forum!
Are you sure about the tools and procedure? And which version of The Procedure you did (with or without touching the VVT wheel)?
Phonic wheel reset/adaptation, whatever it's called (I forgot) - done or not? Via FES or MES program. Or "AlfaOBD".

Have you seen a Guide (and recent update)? https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.237966/post-4763155
Read whole thing (The Guide and the "Discussion" section, all pages, links, pictures, YT videos). Digest all info and then comeback with the reply tomorrow.

P0016 is a camshaft position error as FIAT itself claims (other codes are for VVT or solenoid malfunction). So it's the job/mechanic, not "sensor".
https://aftersales.fiat.com/elearnsections/main.aspx?nodeID=199019116&languageID=2&markID=1&modelID=199000000&valID=199000001&prodID=199000000&modelName=Fiat - 199 - Grande Punto&langDesc=English&sectionName=Diagnosi per DTC&validityName=1.4 8v
But the camshaft sensor is sensitive in terms of the gap. Try refitting the valve cover (therefore the sensor) closer to camshaft. Shift it a 1 milimeter or 2, to the left.

 

[Akd]

Ha ha, another one. Easiest engine on the planet and each year someone gets P0016 or similar code. And he "must" start new thread on forum!
Are you sure about the tools and procedure? And which version of The Procedure you did (with or without touching the VVT wheel)?
Phonic wheel reset/adaptation, whatever it's called (I forgot) - done or not? Via FES or MES program. Or "AlfaOBD".

Have you seen a Guide (and recent update)? https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.237966/post-4763155
Read whole thing (The Guide and the "Discussion" section, all pages, links, pictures, YT videos).

P0016 is a camshaft position error as FIAT itself claims (other codes are for VVT or solenoid malfunction).
https://aftersales.fiat.com/elearnsections/main.aspx?nodeID=199019116&languageID=2&markID=1&modelID=199000000&valID=199000001&prodID=199000000&modelName=Fiat - 199 - Grande Punto&langDesc=English&sectionName=Diagnosi per DTC&validityName=1.4 8v
But the camshaft sensor is sensitive in terms of the gap. Try refitting the valve cover (therefore the sensor) closer to camshaft. Shift it a 1 milimeter or 2, to the left.

I never really seem to find a definitive answer as people seem to sort it in different ways. So that’s why I posted a new one. I did touch (rotate) the vvt wheel after refitting the new belt to check the alignment.

In regards to the phonic reset, I followed an instruction from here (accelerate to 6k rpm 3 x 3 seconds) but doesn’t seem to work.

I will try to remove and refit the valve cover and move the sensor as you suggested.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

You've answered back in 9 minutes (there is material to study for hours, 2-3 minimum), that's part of the problem.
Need to be right / fast, one click away from solution (and thinking there is: one particular problem = one single solution - here it's NOT).
Starting new forum thread every time also (everyone thinks he's "special"). Another factor adding to issue with the car (it's the driver).
Third thing (nail in the coffin of most forums): they never come back with the solution (tell us if it's fixed and how, what was done wrong, which step of the procedure, what part failed etc.). No feedback, ruins the collective effort (to build the knowledge, "database" of problems-solutions).

 

[Akd]

You've answered back in 9 minutes (there is material to study for hours, 2-3 minimum), that's part of the problem.
Need to be right / fast, one click away from solution (and thinking there is: one particular problem = one single solution - here it's NOT).
Starting new forum thread every time also (everyone thinks he's "special"). Another factor adding to issue with the car (it's the driver).
Third thing (nail in the coffin of most forums): they never come back with the solution (tell us if it's fixed and how, what was done wrong, which step of the procedure, what part failed etc.).

I’ve already been through the guides, that’s why I (obviously) didn’t read them again. I’ve spent hours already, so I just wanted to hear if anyone could ping me in the right direction. Furthermore, I could only find 1 post that matches my problem (no errors when in operating temperature, only at cold start) and in there no actual solution was given besides links to the same guide as you sent.

 

[Vikt2858]

I’ve already been through the guides, that’s why I (obviously) didn’t read them again. I’ve spent hours already, so I just wanted to hear if anyone could ping me in the right direction. Furthermore, I could only find 1 post that matches my problem (no errors when in operating temperature, only at cold start) and in there no actual solution was given besides links to the same guide as you sent.

Hi Akd,

I wanted to check if you found a solution to the error code. I'm in the same situation and have followed the same steps as you, but with no luck.

——————————————————————
Hej Akd,

Jeg vil lige høre, om du har fundet en løsning på fejlkoden? Jeg står i samme situation og har fulgt de samme trin som dig, men uden held.

Tak på forhånd

 

[GrandePunto PL]

I did my timing belt 2 weeks ago (extended job: new camshaft, new VVT wheel, valve stem seals, valve shims). In hope to get any faults... Epic fail.
Full "eLearn" procedure results in tools not fitting again after few revolutions (due to stupid tension step: they tell you to do maximum belt tension during VVT bolt assembly, then release until forks line-up = tools won't fit, because manipulating tension shifts the timing a bit).
But the misalignment is small (2-3 degrees maybe) and gives NO fault codes!
I even did intentional tooth skip in the opposite direction (1 tooth on the VVT wheel) = still no errors! Why?

In the FES/MES, you have 6 VVT positions, you can kind-of judge the timing by that. So mine was, let's say first, VVT(1), from 113 degrees to the 97 (after manual belt skip), most cars have 102-109 range. Therefore you can use any tools kit, no such thing as "precision" here (probably because VVT takes care of it anyway).
It's about the procedure (each and every step, the way you lock things, tighten the bolt etc., order of operations), not the brand of the locking tools.

ALL people with P0016 have the same problem: they NEVER finish the threads on forums, Facebook groups etc. They never provide any valid data, evidence, measurements (oil pressure, OBD2 data, data logs, exhaust gas analysis, video/foto taken during the job). No one has balls to tell what was wrong (what HE did wrong, to help/warn others). That's unhealthy relationship (you provide nothing, but want a lot in exchange), degenerate "community" (Grande section has >1200 pages and >90% are useless threads).

Conclusion: you must be really lame and clueless, to get infamous P0016! It's not about offending anyone, that's not the point. You need more experience.
It requires some serious, huge mistake (multiple teeth off) to trip such codes. Or there is also other major malfunction in the system (VVT, oil delivery, worn camshaft lobes, bad valve lash, some other stuff: sensors?), the problems add-up.

This is shifted too much (opposite to the shift caused by eLearn procedure error).

This was after following eLearn blindly. A bit off (first position should be somewhere under 110 degrees).

Maybe my ECU is fried, so it doesn't report any trouble...

So, now it's your turn. Describe in detail your timing belt "procedure", that leads to errors. What have you done. Give some service history, mileage, is your VVT operational and how would you check it (does it click/clap during start after longer period, for example after not using it for weekend). Come on. Timing belt job is a serious thing: I mean, you should take some pictures while doing it(?). Maybe a short video...? Or OBD2 parameters "before & after"? No?

Everyone has a smartphone, but when it's time to really document something important, suddenly you have nothing (no pictures, no filming was done)...

 

[GrandePunto PL]

I did my timing belt 2 weeks ago (extended job: new camshaft, new VVT wheel, valve stem seals, valve shims).

I forgot: also "new" (used but better condition) crankshaft pulley ("key" prone to corrosion and cracking during dis/assembly) and the seal.
No problems (so far - will see, in case of failure I will report back, unlike most folks in the internet including those two Danish Danes above)...

Come on guys. Give some feedback, describe your procedure, maybe we will track down the error, fallacy, crucial/critical step that creates the fault codes.
We all learn by doing mistakes (mee too) and so on. If you stay silent and try to deny it, you start the thread and disappear, no one will treat you seriously.

 

[jte]

I did the timing belt replacement two years ago.
First it throw this fault code P0016-72 with cold engine, but when engine was warm and I cleared the code, it didn't throw any code, until
I again started cold engine.
The VVT(1) angle was 118.38.
I adjust timing again and now it is ok, no codes in two years.
Now The VVT(1) angle is 103.56.

 

[Vikt2858]

I forgot: also "new" (used but better condition) crankshaft pulley ("key" prone to corrosion and cracking during dis/assembly) and the seal.
No problems (so far - will see, in case of failure I will report back, unlike most folks in the internet including those two Danish Danes above)...

Come on guys. Give some feedback, describe your procedure, maybe we will track down the error, fallacy, crucial/critical step that creates the fault codes.
We all learn by doing mistakes (mee too) and so on. If you stay silent and try to deny it, you start the thread and disappear, no one will treat you seriously.

I will send you some data and read out of the car today.

 

[jte]

When I did timing second time, I locked camshaft and crankshaft with the locking tool,
I could't get timing belt in the camshaft sprocket because the teeth were opposite of each other.
If I remember correct, I advanced crankshaft half of tooth, put the belt in place, then tension to max and turn two revolution.
Then I put camshaft locking tool in place, but crankshaft locking tool hole was not quite lineup with the opposite threads, perhaps 2-3 mm but I leave it that way. No error codes, so it is enough timing. Next time I slacken the VVT sprocket bolt.
Correct way is to put both locking tools in place, then slacken camshaft sprocket bolt.
Put timing belt in place.
Now you can line up both sprockets with timing belt toots because VVT sprocket can turn without turning crank- or camshafts.
Then tension the belt.
Turn two revolution.
Put both locking tools in place.
Then tighten VVT sprocket bolt
'Slacken belt tensioner so that the two forks line up.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Wrong. I said the "eLearn" procedure has a small error. Maximum tension and then releasing it until forks line up results in timing shift (now try installing the tools, one will not fit). Proper procedure is to set the forks and then mess with bolts/wheels. Tension will slightly change anyway after few turns.

Tools kit has more than 2 tools. You have small lock for VVT wheel, use that. Besides that it's still not enough (camshaft should be supported by 24 mm or better 15/16" spanner, timing tool is too weak to hold the camshaft during bolt torque+angle).

There are multiple steps like that (and they all contribute to shift, until errors/CheckEngine pops). It's the procedure (how you do things), not tools.
This is essence/mystery of being mechanic. We have same tools, but different results. "Why", it's your homework - people with P0016 and similar codes (you go figure that one out).

If the engine works fine and VVT positions (first one) are in the 100-110 range, the paint marker method (no tools) is also OK (it can be even better than using tools, especially when most people don't understand the purpose of the tools and how you actually suppose to use them, plus they use them in random combinations - only one tool, in most cases two, maybe 3 - and mixed order of operations => P0016 and they are surprised "why"). Also lack of experience prevents you from spotting the errors in the official procedures (which step doesn't make sense, or it's a translation error etc.).

Torque values are messed up too in "eLearn", some values are in wrong cell of the table (you can under-torque one and over-torque VVT wheel for example). Same for sparkplugs (M12 and they tell you to crank them like M14) or engine mounts (mixed values for M8 and M10 threads) or camshaft bearings/caps (again they give too much torque for M7 or M9 thread, whatever). Watch out.

Then we have lubrication during assembly. For example VVT wheel and camshaft mating surfaces must be dry (to hold them by friction), but the bolt is lubricated a bit (droplet of oil under the head of the bolt, thread too - thread locker also can be used). Bolt is probably "torque to yield" (torque + angle), you should use brand new one. Details like that are also part of The Procedure. But "eLearn" doesn't tell you such things (service procedures are not textbooks for beginner mechanics and there are always some additional steps to do between the lines - you measure something, you clean it, lube it, you lock it, you put some pre-load on the part in specific direction, you heat it up or cool down and so on)...

Undoing bolts. Almost no one mentions it. Like no one noticed how hard the VVT bolt can be for example. You can easily damage the bolt and/or T55 bit. By coincidence (or not?), the hardest bolts carry "information" (I mean: hard to un/do bolt is probably important, it can be critical, so be careful how you do it, how you secure/lock things, how you support the engine etc.). There are multiple reasons like that (why "simple" job can be performed wrong - it looks like just a few bolts to un/do, right?).

What else. Many hobbyists/amateurs have nasty habit of developing (making up, fabricating on the spot) their own weird "techniques" and "procedures" in the first 3-5 years in the trade or doing hobby. They judge (based on nothing or random bits of information from internet) what to do, how to treat mechanical and electrical parts. Which one is "good" or "bad". They will reuse the old bolt, but put new gasket, when the opposite must be done in specific area of the machine. Dry or lubricated (as for bolts, most will lube thread only, they don't comprehend how bolt works and that you should lube the head too - most common mistake on problematic bolts where you try to fight rust or heat). Results are catastrophic (but the job was simple).

 

[Akd]

Hi Akd,

I wanted to check if you found a solution to the error code. I'm in the same situation and have followed the same steps as you, but with no luck.

——————————————————————
Hej Akd,

Jeg vil lige høre, om du har fundet en løsning på fejlkoden? Jeg står i samme situation og har fulgt de samme trin som dig, men uden held.

Tak på forhånd

Hey, unfortunately the belt had slipped a tooth whilst tightening. I removed all parts and tried fitting on the lock-tool and lo and behold I couldn’t fit both the camshaft lock and crankshaft lock at the same time (ergo the engine wasn’t aligned/timed properly.)

We don’t exactly know when/how this happened, as we used the locking tools at prior assembly. But go through the “hard” work again and double check that everything is in place. Good luck!

 

[Akd]

Hi Akd,

I wanted to check if you found a solution to the error code. I'm in the same situation and have followed the same steps as you, but with no luck.

——————————————————————
Hej Akd,

Jeg vil lige høre, om du har fundet en løsning på fejlkoden? Jeg står i samme situation og har fulgt de samme trin som dig, men uden held.

Tak på forhånd

Så ikke lige du var dansk, men du er velkommen til at skrive en privat besked hvis du har yderligere spørgsmål

 

[GrandePunto PL]

So...another useless thread (for now).
You have provided no info whatsoever of HOW the mistake happened (WHY, especially if proper timing tools were used).
Small timing shift can occur (a few degrees), but not fault code!
Compare your "procedure", to the eLearn one (what you did VS what eLearn says) step by step.