Technical Smell + noise?

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Technical Smell + noise?

https://youtu.be/beVJ20u7Xhw
I know it's a punto but panda calipers the same on some models.

Shows lower pin removal.

Loads of other bad practice in video not to be copied, just pay attention to lower pin removal and rotating caliper up and checking caliper slides on slide pin.

For everyone else
What does he do wrong? Several things to spot here.
Ok, at the risk of making a fool of myself I'll have a go at your "quiz"

First off He's not using any stands and the jack is fully extended which makes for maximum instability!

Regarding that bottom pin. In this example it looks to be in good condition but they are well known to corrode in position including the wee clip. The hammer he's using is just ridiculous! if you get "violent" with it it breaks off the wee lug it fits into on the caliper carrier. Gently gently is the way to approach this pin!

I like to take the top pin out, check the rubber boot and give it a wee clean up and relube with ceramic or silicon grease - not a mineral based product, like copper grease, which will degrade the rubber and sometimes cause the slider to jam up by swelling rubber bushings on some deigns - however if you're not going to do that, checking it's free is a good idea but he is being a bit rough on it? might damage the boot? Watch too that you're not stressing the hose.

By gum, you just couldn't have got anymore life out of those pads though could you?

Now comes the really big no no. He blows the dust out with an air gun! Unbelievable in this day and age! Even though asbestos has been outlawed in friction materials for years now you absolutely do not want to risk getting this stuff in your lungs. Liquid brake cleaner is available in aerosol cans everywhere now a days, just use it (it comes in handy for degreasing other stuff too).

Then he has to, quite rightly, retract the piston to make room for the new, thicker, pads. Here we might have a bit of disagreement about how to do it. By the way I'd have been having a very close look at the dust gator on the piston before going any further. The problem centres around protecting the ABS unit from ingress of "foreign bodies" The general advice is to clamp off the brake hose and slacken the bleed nipple so that as you push the piston back no fluid can travel back towards the ABS unit which might jam up the internal valving, instead it is ejected through the bleed nipple which can be messy! - Don't forget to retighten the nipple and top up the reservoir when you've finished. In practice there are things to consider, not least of which being that if it's an old car the bleed nipple may well be hopelessly corroded in place and will snap off if you try to undo it! The "foreign bodies" to which I refer above will pretty much be rubber debris. Either small bits of rubber from the internal hose liner or rubber dust from the piston seals. Perhaps also, on a very old vehicle, some small rust dust particularly if the brake fluid hasn't been changed regularly. So, my thinking on the subject is that if the vehicle is quite new, maybe having it's first pad change, there is very little risk in pressing the piston back and allowing the fluid to return to the reservoir (watch it doesn't over flow - someone may have topped it up as the pads wore down) If the car is older than that I'd try to undo the bleed nipple but if it's seized I'd probably just press the piston back anyway. I've done it many many times this way and never, so far, had a problem (shouldn't have said that should I)

Applying grease to the back of the pads and caliper carrier? well yes, good idea. But, now a days, copper grease is not recommended for a number of reasons, although it is still widely used without any particular problems I've personally observed. You can buy specific ceramic based greases for this purpose, all factors, Halfords, etc stock it and I now use it. If you are going to apply any grease - and it MUST be a high melting point producT - then use it sparingly. The idea is to get it between mating surfaces caliper/piston to pad. Most of the grease he applied is doing nothing. Of course you absolutely do not want it anywhere near the friction face so, I say again, be sparing in it's use. I would have cleaned up the curved locating area in the caliper carrier where the rounded ends of the pads rest and given them a light coating of lube too. Don't forget to lube the wee pin too and squeeze some lube into the wee hole the clip fits in so it has a chance of coming out next time, Of course I noticed he does that.

Well, what have I missed out on? I rather like his gloves though, must get a pair!
 
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Ok, at the risk of making a fool of myself I'll have a go at your "quiz"

First off He's not using any stands and the jack is fully extended which makes for maximum instability!

Regarding that bottom pin. In this example it looks to be in good condition but they are well known to corrode in position including the wee clip. The hammer he's using is just ridiculous! if you get "violent" with it it breaks off the wee lug it fits into on the caliper carrier. Gently gently is the way to approach this pin!

I like to take the top pin out, check the rubber boot and give it a wee clean up and relube with ceramic or silicon grease - not a mineral based product, like copper grease, which will degrade the rubber and sometimes cause the slider to jam up by swelling rubber bushings on some deigns - however if you're not going to do that, checking it's free is a good idea but he is being a bit rough on it? might damage the boot? Watch too that you're not stressing the hose.

By gum, you just couldn't have got anymore life out of those pads though could you?

Now comes the really big no no. He blows the dust out with an air gun! Unbelievable in this day and age! Even though asbestos has been outlawed in friction materials for years now you absolutely do not want to risk getting this stuff in your lungs. Liquid brake cleaner is available in aerosol cans everywhere now a days, just use it (it comes in handy for degreasing other stuff too).

Then he has to, quite rightly, retract the piston to make room for the new, thicker, pads. Here we might have a bit of disagreement about how to do it. By the way I'd have been having a very close look at the dust gator on the piston before going any further. The problem centres around protecting the ABS unit from ingress of "foreign bodies" The general advice is to clamp off the brake hose and slacken the bleed nipple so that as you push the piston back no fluid can travel back towards the ABS unit which might jam up the internal valving, instead it is ejected through the bleed nipple which can be messy! - Don't forget to retighten the nipple and top up the reservoir when you've finished. In practice there are things to consider, not least of which being that if it's an old car the bleed nipple may well be hopelessly corroded in place and will snap off if you try to undo it! The "foreign bodies" to which I refer above will pretty much be rubber debris. Either small bits of rubber from the internal hose liner or rubber dust from the piston seals. Perhaps also, on a very old vehicle, some small rust dust particularly if the brake fluid hasn't been changed regularly. So, my thinking on the subject is that if the vehicle is quite new, maybe having it's first pad change, there is very little risk in pressing the piston back and allowing the fluid to return to the reservoir (watch it doesn't over flow - someone may have topped it up as the pads wore down) If the car is older than that I'd try to undo the bleed nipple but if it's seized I'd probably just press the piston back anyway. I've done it many many times this way and never, so far, had a problem (shouldn't have said that should I)

Applying grease to the back of the pads and caliper carrier? well yes, good idea. But, now a days, copper grease is not recommended for a number of reasons, although it is still widely used without any particular problems I've personally observed. You can buy specific ceramic based greases for this purpose, all factors, Halfords, etc stock it and I now use it. If you are going to apply any grease - and it MUST be a high melting point producT - then use it sparingly. The idea is to get it between mating surfaces caliper/piston to pad. Most of the grease he applied is doing nothing. Of course you absolutely do not want it anywhere near the friction face so, I say again, be sparing in it's use. I would have cleaned up the curved locating area in the caliper carrier where the rounded ends of the pads rest and given them a light coating of lube too. Don't forget to lube the wee pin too and squeeze some lube into the wee hole the clip fits in so it has a chance of coming out next time, Of course I noticed he does that.

Well, what have I missed out on? I rather like his gloves though, must get a pair!
I liked his gloves too.... ha ha ...seriously I did like his gloves. I'm rubbish at putting gloves on as just tend to get on with.

It was the blowing away brake dust with air line that made me start the quiz.

Great score on the quiz

Only missed 1 thing that some people argue with me about(but they are wrong)

First thing new pads on old discs, false economy, potentially dangerous , just plain stupid given how cheap and easy to change they are on this brake set up.

Second to me that discs looks way below minimum thickness, seriously thin, potentially dangerous in my opinion.

Result Jock wins.

Cheers Jack.
 
Ok, at the risk of making a fool of myself I'll have a go at your "quiz"

First off He's not using any stands and the jack is fully extended which makes for maximum instability!

Regarding that bottom pin. In this example it looks to be in good condition but they are well known to corrode in position including the wee clip. The hammer he's using is just ridiculous! if you get "violent" with it it breaks off the wee lug it fits into on the caliper carrier. Gently gently is the way to approach this pin!

I like to take the top pin out, check the rubber boot and give it a wee clean up and relube with ceramic or silicon grease - not a mineral based product, like copper grease, which will degrade the rubber and sometimes cause the slider to jam up by swelling rubber bushings on some deigns - however if you're not going to do that, checking it's free is a good idea but he is being a bit rough on it? might damage the boot? Watch too that you're not stressing the hose.

By gum, you just couldn't have got anymore life out of those pads though could you?

Now comes the really big no no. He blows the dust out with an air gun! Unbelievable in this day and age! Even though asbestos has been outlawed in friction materials for years now you absolutely do not want to risk getting this stuff in your lungs. Liquid brake cleaner is available in aerosol cans everywhere now a days, just use it (it comes in handy for degreasing other stuff too).

Then he has to, quite rightly, retract the piston to make room for the new, thicker, pads. Here we might have a bit of disagreement about how to do it. By the way I'd have been having a very close look at the dust gator on the piston before going any further. The problem centres around protecting the ABS unit from ingress of "foreign bodies" The general advice is to clamp off the brake hose and slacken the bleed nipple so that as you push the piston back no fluid can travel back towards the ABS unit which might jam up the internal valving, instead it is ejected through the bleed nipple which can be messy! - Don't forget to retighten the nipple and top up the reservoir when you've finished. In practice there are things to consider, not least of which being that if it's an old car the bleed nipple may well be hopelessly corroded in place and will snap off if you try to undo it! The "foreign bodies" to which I refer above will pretty much be rubber debris. Either small bits of rubber from the internal hose liner or rubber dust from the piston seals. Perhaps also, on a very old vehicle, some small rust dust particularly if the brake fluid hasn't been changed regularly. So, my thinking on the subject is that if the vehicle is quite new, maybe having it's first pad change, there is very little risk in pressing the piston back and allowing the fluid to return to the reservoir (watch it doesn't over flow - someone may have topped it up as the pads wore down) If the car is older than that I'd try to undo the bleed nipple but if it's seized I'd probably just press the piston back anyway. I've done it many many times this way and never, so far, had a problem (shouldn't have said that should I)

Applying grease to the back of the pads and caliper carrier? well yes, good idea. But, now a days, copper grease is not recommended for a number of reasons, although it is still widely used without any particular problems I've personally observed. You can buy specific ceramic based greases for this purpose, all factors, Halfords, etc stock it and I now use it. If you are going to apply any grease - and it MUST be a high melting point producT - then use it sparingly. The idea is to get it between mating surfaces caliper/piston to pad. Most of the grease he applied is doing nothing. Of course you absolutely do not want it anywhere near the friction face so, I say again, be sparing in it's use. I would have cleaned up the curved locating area in the caliper carrier where the rounded ends of the pads rest and given them a light coating of lube too. Don't forget to lube the wee pin too and squeeze some lube into the wee hole the clip fits in so it has a chance of coming out next time, Of course I noticed he does that.

Well, what have I missed out on? I rather like his gloves though, must get a pair!
I was just watching your second video - the one with the 500 - and I notice the pads have built in anti squeal shims. Went back and checked "matey" with his Punto in the first video and guess what? anti squeal shims plainly visible! So no need to coat the back of the pads with copper grease anyway - and I notice the 500 video doesn't do this.

In my opinion the greasing up of the hub was excessive? I'd use maybe half as much, just enough to give a very light skim.

Ingenious idea using the screwdriver to stop the disc rotating whilst tightening the retainers but I wouldn't be tightening these "supertight" anyway - they can often be difficult enough to undo.

Hope he washed his hands well before going anywhere near that lovely white interior?
 
The wheels seemed quite warm after my firSt drive... Is this normal?
Did you do the wheel spin freely when jacked up check?
Did you release the master cylinder cap when pushing pistons back ?
Did you push pistons all the way back into caliper ?
Did you have to really push the caliper down onto the new pads?

Wheels do get warm.

New parts may need a few miles to settle down
 
Did you do the wheel spin freely when jacked up check?
Did you release the master cylinder cap when pushing pistons back ?
Did you push pistons all the way back into caliper ?
Did you have to really push the caliper down onto the new pads?

Wheels do get warm.

New parts may need a few miles to settle down
I forgot to undo the cap honestly, the pistons only needed to be pushed back a couple of mm.
 
I was just watching your second video - the one with the 500 - and I notice the pads have built in anti squeal shims. Went back and checked "matey" with his Punto in the first video and guess what? anti squeal shims plainly visible! So no need to coat the back of the pads with copper grease anyway - and I notice the 500 video doesn't do this.

In my opinion the greasing up of the hub was excessive? I'd use maybe half as much, just enough to give a very light skim.

Ingenious idea using the screwdriver to stop the disc rotating whilst tightening the retainers but I wouldn't be tightening these "supertight" anyway - they can often be difficult enough to undo.

Hope he washed his hands well before going anywhere near that lovely white interior?
Yes far too much copper grease which can easily lead to disc run out problems.

Just need enough of something to stop rust between hub and disc and wipe excess off.

I hope he washed his hands before and after going to the loo.
 
Did you do the wheel spin freely when jacked up check?
Did you release the master cylinder cap when pushing pistons back ?
Did you push pistons all the way back into caliper ?
Did you have to really push the caliper down onto the new pads?

Wheels do get warm.

New parts may need a few miles to settle down
Didn't have to really force the caliper down, just a bit of a nudge.
 
Did you do the wheel spin freely when jacked up check?
Did you release the master cylinder cap when pushing pistons back ?
Did you push pistons all the way back into caliper ?
Did you have to really push the caliper down onto the new pads?

Wheels do get warm.

New parts may need a few miles to settle down
The wheels span freely, the pad caught the disc a bit, but they're new pads...
 
Only missed 1 thing that some people argue with me about(but they are wrong)

First thing new pads on old discs, false economy, potentially dangerous , just plain stupid given how cheap and easy to change they are on this brake set up.

Second to me that discs looks way below minimum thickness, seriously thin, potentially dangerous in my opinion.

I wouldn't just change a disc automatically when doing pads but I would be taking a very close look at it. In this case if you look closely at the inner edge of the disc face when he's removing the outer pad you can see a quite clear wear lip (near the hub) and I agree the disc looks thin, but then again some discs are quite thin even when new, especially rears. (I've even seen a new vented disc where the thickness of the inner face to vent slots was different to the thickness of the outer face - what is that all about? one side wears more quickly than the other? really?

Yes, gloves, I've tried several of the ultra thin (to try to give finger feel) offerings and I find they all end up in shreds long before the job is finished. I find that even with thin gloves on I feel "fumble fingered" and those ones in the video look quite thick. However they look like you could take them on and off without ripping them to pieces so might get a pair for protection when "feel" isn't paramount. They do look as though they will absorb oil very nicely so probably wouldn't survive doing an oil change as I often seem to end up with oil all the way up to my armpits on those jobs - Ha Ha!:eek:
 
Didn't have to really force the caliper down, just a bit of a nudge.
You may not have pushed pistons back into caliper enough . Causing the piston to be unable to retract after brake application.

See second video of using screwdriver to push piston back in without dismantling anything other than removing wheel.

Be careful to only lever between caliper and metal back plate of pad.

Jack up and do wheel spin test.
If not happy , loosen brake master cap then push back pistons . Reassemble , tighten fluid cap .
Press brake pedal , release pedal , redo spin by hand test.
 
You may not have pushed pistons back into caliper enough . Causing the piston to be unable to retract after brake application.

See second video of using screwdriver to push piston back in without dismantling anything other than removing wheel.

Be careful to only lever between caliper and metal back plate of pad.

Jack up and do wheel spin test.
If not happy , loosen brake master cap then push back pistons . Reassemble , tighten fluid cap .
Press brake pedal , release pedal , redo spin by hand test.
Okay, I'll give that all a go later.
 
I wouldn't just change a disc automatically when doing pads but I would be taking a very close look at it. In this case if you look closely at the inner edge of the disc face when he's removing the outer pad you can see a quite clear wear lip (near the hub) and I agree the disc looks thin, but then again some discs are quite thin even when new, especially rears. (I've even seen a new vented disc where the thickness of the inner face to vent slots was different to the thickness of the outer face - what is that all about? one side wears more quickly than the other? really?

Yes, gloves, I've tried several of the ultra thin (to try to give finger feel) offerings and I find they all end up in shreds long before the job is finished. I find that even with thin gloves on I feel "fumble fingered" and those ones in the video look quite thick. However they look like you could take them on and off without ripping them to pieces so might get a pair for protection when "feel" isn't paramount. They do look as though they will absorb oil very nicely so probably wouldn't survive doing an oil change as I often seem to end up with oil all the way up to my armpits on those jobs - Ha Ha!:eek:
Jock you are currently the only person I will let off on new pads old discs, because you have the experience to judge a brake disc and know how to drive with new pads on old discs, if you want too.

I know there are other considerations on commercial vehicles with discs mounted to the rear face of the hub but please lets not go there and instead keep it simple.

Cheers Jack
 
Jock you are currently the only person I will let off on new pads old discs, because you have the experience to judge a brake disc and know how to drive with new pads on old discs, if you want too.

I know there are other considerations on commercial vehicles with discs mounted to the rear face of the hub but please lets not go there and instead keep it simple.

Cheers Jack
Thanks for the vote of confidence Jack. I take your point that i have the "unfair" advantage of experience so renewing a disc that has done maybe 20,000 miles in service would certainly be the safe option for someone who has no yardstick to go by.

Actually I have no experience at all of heavy vehicles but I do love watching the adventures of Guy Martin. I really liked his attack on Pikes Peak with his home made turbo bike. His Transit adventures are pretty thrilling too.
 
Back from the drive. The squealing stopped after a few more applications of the brake and the wheels are cooler now I'm home.
Will jack it up later and check wheel spin.

The sliders I require, are they the same for all models of this generation of Panda?
 
Checked it all. o/S wheel span 1.5-1.75 turns, the other side did 2 full ones and felt a tad smoother. But neither were seized.

Opened the brake fluid top up (the fluid in it looked a bit milky - is that water?) And pushed both pistons back in, they were nice and easy to push in. Put it all back together, obviously the wheels span even more freely after this because the piston was fully in.
 
Back from the drive. The squealing stopped after a few more applications of the brake and the wheels are cooler now I'm home.
Will jack it up later and check wheel spin.

The sliders I require, are they the same for all models of this generation of Panda?
They will be specific to each make of calipers

Manufactures often fit different brands of calliper depending on stock and whos supplying them at that time ect

Bosch are very common bits there's a lot of others
My current Tipo has Mando calipers but some versions have Bosch I believe
 
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