Technical Sluggish Panda 1.2 Euro 5

[Martijn169]

Good evening,

Just yesterday I have purchased a 2011 Fiat Panda Active with only 67.000 km's (~42.000 miles). It has the 69 Hp Euro 5 engine. Although the car could use a good cleaning, it is well maintained and in pretty decent condition.
When I went for a test drive however I noticed that the car felt very sluggish. It did accelerate but not very energetic. Below 3000 rpm it was better than above that engine speed. Because no warning lights were on and a Panda being a very basic car I took the gamble and purchased the car anyway. At first I hoped that a good motorway drive would solve the sluggish acceleration, but it did not.
My second guess was that the VVT solenoid was stuck. So today I removed and disassembled the VVT solenoid and the valve was indeed stuck. After getting the valve moving again I got the car out on a test drive and the problem was.... not solved. That was a bit of a disappointment.
I did not yet disconnect the battery to solve a possibly activated limp home function (due to the stuck solenoid), so I did tonight. I don't yet know whether that has solved the problem.

- What other issues can cause the car to accelerate very sluggish without activating any warning light?
- Is there any way to check whether the VVT solenoid is actually working? I only made sure that the valve is free to move, but I don't know whether the solenoid actually works. Would it make sense to remove the solenoid from the valve cover, blocking the hole to prevent oil from splashing out, and then rev the engine to 4.000(?) rpm to check whether the solenoid is actually working? Or does the solenoid only work at a certain engine load?

All suggestions are welcome.

Thanks!

Martijn

 

[koalar]

If the solenoid is faulty, stuck or not working it will put the engine check light on and give an error code camshaft too retarded or advanced

In diagnostic software you can look at the desired angle and actual

In my opinion if there's no engine check light up you more than likely looking up the wrong tree,

 

[koalar]

MAP sensor coved in oil effect acceleration and is pretty common

 

[irc]

I don't work on many VVTs, but I have a vague memory of a filter somewhere in the system that can get clogged up, causing the VVT to not operate, even when the solenoid is working properly.
However, as above I would expect there to be an EML and associated error code.
Same goes for timing belt out by a tooth.

Certainly on pre-VVT 1.2 engines, I have come across sluggish ones, often low-mileage, which have only ever been driven gently, and often only for short distances. They have all responded to a measure of "spirited driving" and gradually improved.
(Sadly this doesn't work as well on the Multijet diesels. I currently have 2 which are hideously clogged up with soot and sticky gunk which shows no sign of disappearing).

 

[koalar]

I don't work on many VVTs, but I have a vague memory of a filter somewhere in the system that can get clogged up, causing the VVT to not operate, even when the solenoid is working properly.
However, as above I would expect there to be an EML and associated error code.
Same goes for timing belt out by a tooth.

Correct

here's mine

It's only the bottom gauze the gets blocked

It does reduce performance, it does put the error check light on P0011

It can be cleaned with meths and a toothbrush

Certainly on pre-VVT 1.2 engines, I have come across sluggish ones, often low-mileage, which have only ever been driven gently, and often only for short distances. They have all responded to a measure of "spirited driving" and gradually improved.
(Sadly this doesn't work as well on the Multijet diesels. I currently have 2 which are hideously clogged up with soot and sticky gunk which shows no sign of disappearing).

On the flyby wire 1.2 engines the MAP is left side if facing the engine and sits on at the end of a long groove, this can fill up with several CC of mayo

Wide open throttle and high revs will help to
clear it out,

You can remove the throttle body and MAP and push a rag through also

If the MAP is dirty I find poor acceleration when the throttle is floored is the main symptoms with no engine check light

None of the symptoms really fit @Martijn169 but probably worth pulling the MAP out and inspecting as it's only one bolt

 

[Martijn169]

Thanks guys for your prompt response and suggestions!

I have something to check tomorrow.

Reading the suggestion about the MAP I must say that symptoms are a bit similar to the old days when driving with a jet in the carburettor that is too small. Especially at Wide Open Throttle the engine seems to lean out.

I will check tomorrow and get back to you.

Can I clean the MAP using brake cleaner or do I need to use a special cleaner for that?

 

[koalar]

Thanks guys for your prompt response and suggestions!

I have something to check tomorrow.

Reading the suggestion about the MAP I must say that symptoms are a bit similar to the old days when driving with a jet in the carburettor that is too small. Especially at Wide Open Throttle the engine seems to lean out.

I will check tomorrow and get back to you.

Can I clean the MAP using brake cleaner or do I need to use a special cleaner for that?

Yes

Just keep it pointing down so it can't run inside

I imagine they are sealed, but have never cut one apart to be sure

Brake cleaner or throttle clean both the same and work fine

You don't even have to disconnect the electrical connection, there's enough slack to leave it on

Don't drop the the bolt

Inlet manifold 1.2 | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

MAP sensor is on the left side when looking from the front of the car just one TX25 and I pulls out The tip often gets covered in oil. Cleans up fine with a squirt of brake/carb cleaner. But keep the tip pointing down. Its best to keep the cleaner out of the sensor its not sealed. Poor...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[Martijn169]

Thanks. Also for the explaining thread.

What an I looking at in photo 4? Is that where the throttle body sits?

 

[koalar]

Thanks. Also for the explaining thread.

What an I looking at in photo 4? Is that where the throttle body sits?

Yes

 

[Martijn169]

This morning I pulled out the MAP sensor and it was indeed covered in oil.
I also removed the airbox to have a look at th throttle body. This was also pretty contaminated with oil.

I have cleaned everthing and installed it again. I have also replaced the small hose between the inlet manifold and the airbox because it was ripped over a big length. I have used silicone hose for that.

Unfortunately it did not solve the issue. Things seem to have improved but not solved.

Just yet I have been for a test drive: in second gear the car the car struggles to get past 4000 rpm. It seems the car is kackibg torque / power across the rpm band.

Would the MAP sensor be a suspect in the sense that it is defective? Or would that light acwarnibg light on the dash?

Later on I will post some pictures.

 

[koalar]

This morning I pulled out the MAP sensor and it was indeed covered in oil.
I also removed the airbox to have a look at th throttle body. This was also pretty contaminated with oil.

Almost certainly due to the damaged pipe

I have cleaned everthing and installed it again. I have also replaced the small hose between the inlet manifold and the airbox because it was ripped over a big length. I have used silicone hose for that.

The fact it been left like this probably means it's not been maintained

Unfortunately it did not solve the issue. Things seem to have improved but not solved.

As suspected, but was worth checking as it's free and in bolt

Just yet I have been for a test drive: in second gear the car the car struggles to get past 4000 rpm. It seems the car is kackibg torque / power across the rpm band.

Could be just about anything, electrical, electronic, fuel, mechanical

Would the MAP sensor be a suspect in the sense that it is defective? Or would that light acwarnibg light on the dash?

No error light normally, but they rarely go faulty

Later on I will post some pictures.

Does the engine rev freely when in neutral

Have a look at the plugs , sounds like its been lacking a bit of love, when the gap gets too large it will cause similar symptoms

 

[Martijn169]

The plugs will be the next thing to check for me. Thanks.

During the testdrive I have paid more attention to the symptoms. The engine starts without any problem, idles stable and feels quite powerfull when driving away. No problems there.
At more than 2500 rpm the problem seems to arise in the form of a lack of power. This is not a sudden lack of power, the engine still accelerates quite smoothly, only very sluggish/slow. Almost as if it is power from the engine is limited (has there been special software for company cars or rental cars?) or as if the throttle valve does not open far enough to deliver full power.
I also tried revving the engine in neutral and to my big surprise it did not rev above 5000 rpm.

As for the state of maintenance: although it is not conclusive the car came with a full service history. And when I took the air box off the engine I also inspected the air filter. It was of a good brand and in very good condition. So I have no doubt that general maintenance has been carried out on the car.

Photo of the contaminated throttle body:

Throttle body after cleaning:

Contaminated inlet manifold with ripped hose:

Ripped hose:

 

[Martijn169]

I have replaced the ripped hose by a standard silicone hose of the correct diameter. Could it be that this hose is being sucked closed by the engine vacuum and thus causing the issue?

 

[The Panda Nut]

Clean the VVT. actuator with carb cleaner allow it to dry and then bathe it in engine oil before refitting. If it doesnt sort you out im a Scotsman. These things stick with lack of use and may take a bit of messing to get them fully working. Inspect it and you may well see its a bit black at one end from lack of movement. Get it clean and free and the difference is fantastic. I have mine working properly again and wow the difference is amazing. It gives a tangible push in the back at 4000 rpm and then goes freely to 6500. Now its working, the more I am using it at 4000 and abobve the better it is getting. The difference at low revs is also amazing. I have also changed oil to Quantum Platinum Premium and reckon this is one of the best moves I have made for a long while. To stop that manifold drowning in oil, add a catch can in the main breather hose. Running with an oil the car likes also seems to have a profound effect and als has removed ALL the tappetrattles on sgtartup. Even after over a week of standing it starts up smoothe and quiet.

I believe our 2014 car is probably one of the best running Panda 1.2s in Europe. As of today its an absolute gem. Its also done 40K miles. Now the VVT solenoid is working its all nice and shiney not carboned at one end.

 

[Martijn169]

I aready cleaned the VVT and got it to move again. But i did not specifically cleanef the filter.
I will have a go at that and inspect the spark plugs.

When I have done that I will report back.

The option of fitting a catch can is an intersting one. Are there best pratices available? No need to invent the wheel twice (that's an old Dutch saying ).

 

[Martijn169]

Today I had another go with the cleaning of the VVT valve / actuator.
While disassembling it I lost the retaining clip. It just jumped away never to be found again.
So I have ordered a new (used) actuator which is probably coming in tomorrow. The upside of this event is that, with an amount of certainty, I can then rule out the VVT actuator as the cause of the misbehaviour.

I also pulled out one spark plug today. It was an original FPT spark plug. Possibly even the one from the factory. It was gapped at 1 mm and not looking too bad I would say.

 

[koalar]

Doesn't look to good

Over hot

Plus center electrode is burnt away on one corner


Are you sure there 1mm it's been sparking from the side not the top of the electrode

Here yours Vs from a working car

 

[Martijn169]

What could be the cause of this plug being over hot?

As part of the stage 0 tune up I have already ordered a new set + a set of new HT leads.

 

[MrMagoo]

Looks like a large gap.. but replace them anyway..

 

[koalar]

We have a simple size of 1

First see what the others are like

Engine overheating
Incorrect plug heat range
Loose plug
Incorrect ingnition timing
Too lean
Loose plug
Faulty injector

With the poor performance at high revs and lean hot plug, I would suspect a fuel delivery problem

I would look at the fuel trims at idle then raise the revs and see if they increase