Punto (Mk1) Project R the Mk1 Cabrio Restoration project

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

To be Fair, Vexorg seems to follow me and some others around the forum recently needing to comment on literally everything and rarely has anything positive to say.

In this instance, if you consider the repair that was their before was likely done by a cheap garage to get it through an MOT, (can't fail the MOT on rust if you can't see the rust) and there are literally thousands of cars driving around on the road like this, any repairs that this Joe Bloggs does is likely to be as good as OEM.

D'you remember "oversills"? They were intended to be fitted over the top of the existing sills so were very very slightly bigger than a genuine replacement sill and you just whacked them on over the rusty mess and tried to get enough tacks around them to hold them on. They were invariably made from thinner metal than the genuine article, which had the advantage you could easily "persuade" them to fit with the application of a hammer while at the same time, under the influence of the rusty remains underneath, guaranteeing rapid corrosion and more work needed within a couple of years at most. There was a small, independent, Panel shop near me who was always trying to sell me on them, telling me "I sell loads of these to home mechanics like you!" He didn't know I actually worked in the trade because I was never involved in body repair professionally and only ever walked through his door if I was messing about with something at home.

 

[AndyRKett]

D'you remember "oversills"? They were intended to be fitted over the top of the existing sills so were very very slightly bigger than a genuine replacement sill and you just whacked them on over the rusty mess and tried to get enough tacks around them to hold them on. They were invariably made from thinner metal than the genuine article, which had the advantage you could easily "persuade" them to fit with the application of a hammer while at the same time, under the influence of the rusty remains underneath, guaranteeing rapid corrosion and more work needed within a couple of years at most. There was a small, independent, Panel shop near me who was always trying to sell me on them, telling me "I sell loads of these to home mechanics like you!" He didn't know I actually worked in the trade because I was never involved in body repair professionally and only ever walked through his door if I was messing about with something at home.

I may have heard about them, never encountered them.
I know one time when I was in the trade we used to outsource MOTs to nationwide autocentres, they had a guy bring in a Citroen CX which he had repaired the sills on, he was a carpenter so did what he knew, cut the sills out and replaced them with solid Oak. running the length of the car both side, rock solid would outlast a few generations let alone the average life expectancy of a citron. finished in such a way that to look at you would never tell, nicely painted with all the right paints, polished, the car looked a million dollars.

The MOT people had to ring Vosa to check if they could pass it. Vosa said no, as the materials were not as factory. safety wise it would probably punch through anything it hit, but the occupants would never be unsafe probably stronger than any other car on the road truth be told.

I did the Sills on my old range rover classic about 20 years ago. They were a ladder frame chassis and actually landrover's in general have very little structure in the shell. the seat mounts were basically on metal bases no thicker than the floor material, the floor was completely flat with no structural ridges or shaping, so in the event of a heavy accident the seat was likely to just bend the floor and press your face into the dash or windscreen.

This Punto is probably a sub 1 Star Ncap car even by the standards of the day, as no one cared about Ncap when designing cars in the early 90s. So I don't suspect that anything I do to it will make it any worse than factory. In fact the greater risk is making a repair too strong and it causing the car to twist or buckle unpredictably in an accident. Fortunately being a Cabrio there are a lot of added bits of metal inside the sills which I have viewed with a scope and under the car which are unaffected by any rust.

 

[bugsymike]

To be Fair, Vexorg seems to follow me and some others around the forum recently needing to comment on literally everything and rarely has anything positive to say.

In this instance, if you consider the repair that was their before was likely done by a cheap garage to get it through an MOT, (can't fail the MOT on rust if you can't see the rust) and there are literally thousands of cars driving around on the road like this, any repairs that this Joe Bloggs does is likely to be better than what was previously deemed good enough for the MOT.

I am to make it as good as OEM

When Mig welding first came out we sent some vehicles to a local bodyshop for Mot repairs if busy, until I found I could prize off their "patch work" with a screwdriver when doing an Mot Retest.
When the "plastic toffee hammer" Mot tool came out I carried on using a old tyre lever, just bouncing it along on anything I felt was suspect, it was common to see a beautiful solid looking smooth finish that after a few gentle taps a large lump of bodyfiller would drop out which would not have shown up with the correct "tool".
Conversely we had an old boy with Oxy/Acetylene who always did a strong neat job so cheap the trade couldn't compete on price and quality right up till the day he died almost, more than 50 years to my knowledge.
Early 70s "over sills" were common practice in most places, but then so was "cut and shut".
I recall failing a car that the wings were a structural part on that had brand new steel wings fitted, the only problem was 100s of 2BA nuts and bolts, not a weld in sight". I said to the guy the time it must have taken he would have been better doing a few hours overtime at his normal job and paid a welder to fit them.

 

[vexorg]

literally everything and rarely has anything positive to say.

No, just when you see something dangerous, i feel it should be pointed out to the more gullible that might think you know what you are doing.
Or maybe that mechanical engineering degree was just wasted being a button pusher for fluke. But hey, happy to be proved wrong with your mechanical structural engineering certification being posted up.

And really, what is positive about a rotting punto for only fit for the crusher, the fact you are making it more of a death trap makes it so much more difficult. At least the roof isn't rotten with rust

 

[AndyRKett]

Picked up a couple of hammers today for a couple of quid from our local tip shop.

It’s basically a shop run by the council to sell all the stuff that people dump that can be reused. The money raised goes to a local cancer charity so works out well for everyone. One thing I’d like to do is get one of their petrol mowers, only £20-25 but at the moment I have no space to keep it till I can get my shed built

I used to have loads of metal working hammers and tools but they’ve all gone missing over the years.

Hopefully now I have my own garage I can rebuild the collection.

Picked up a bench grinder as well for only £25
Probably cheap and cheerful but with a 3 year guarantee who can argue.

Going to Lidl can be quite dangerous, there are quite a few other things I was eyeing up but thought better of it… wife would kill me

 

[AndyRKett]

Proof of concept, I have made a wooden form, to shape the steel around. Did a quick test last night with some 1mm plate and surprised at how well it worked, that said I forgot to mirror the form for the other side of the car and with it being a test and not 2mm steel I didn’t bother with anything more than roughing it out.

I have made some adjustments to my form and am going to pop out to my dads later as he had some thicker metal and better working tools than me

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Proof of concept, I have made a wooden form, to shape the steel around. Did a quick test last night with some 1mm plate and surprised at how well it worked, that said I forgot to mirror the form for the other side of the car and with it being a test and not 2mm steel I didn’t bother with anything more than roughing it out.

I have made some adjustments to my form and am going to pop out to my dads later as he had some thicker metal and better working tools than me View attachment 449952

View attachment 449952 View attachment 449953

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A brave attempt. I suspect getting it to "deep draw" to the shape of the form is going to be quite difficult though. I'm watching how you manage with great interest as I've never tried doing this - fabricated lots of stuff by beating out on a sandbag though.

 

[bugsymike]

A brave attempt. I suspect getting it to "deep draw" to the shape of the form is going to be quite difficult though. I'm watching how you manage with great interest as I've never tried doing this - fabricated lots of stuff by beating out on a sandbag though.

Always admired the users of the English Wheel, nearly bought one when local bus company closed, but stopped my self.
Though If I had bought it, one that size would have been worth a bob or two by now!
I imagine it takes a lot of practice to perfect.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Always admired the users of the English Wheel, nearly bought one when local bus company closed, but stopped my self.
Though If I had bought it, one that size would have been worth a bob or two by now!
I imagine it takes a lot of practice to perfect.

There's something very artistic about using an English wheel, I've only seen one being used once "in the flesh" and it was fascinating. - lots of videos on likes of you tube for anyone who wants to watch. Shrinker/stretcher tools are interesting too.

 

[AndyRKett]

I’m always in awe of those people who have a wooden frame and some flat pieces of steel and hand craft the most beautiful car bodies, I’d love an english but I think you probably need make multiple car bodies before you would really master it.

Something I have seen a lot of people now doing is 3D printing a single use form, the. Putting it in a press to press put panels for car body repairs.

The panel I did make was surprisingly strong it won’t bend or flex in any direction. So the 2mm steel should make it rock solid. The hardest part is shrinking the material around the corners, it just doesn’t want to do it and you have to spend quite a bit more time working the corners to reshape the metal.

 

[AndyRKett]

This is attempt number two which I have actually mirrored properly. Still a ways to go and I could do with getting some heat on it but it is begining to look like, what it is meant to. That being said this is still the 1mm steel and getting it to this state was pretty hard going so getting 2mm steel into shape like this is going to be even harder.

 

[StevenRB45]

The main question is do you have enough scrap metal to learn?

The main thing with any handtool is time and practice, although harder if there's not someone who knows what they are doing standing over you to say "what are you doing you ****ing idiot?" for those moments when you're heading in the wrong direction.

 

[AndyRKett]

I

The main question is do you have enough scrap metal to learn?

The main thing with any handtool is time and practice, although harder if there's not someone who knows what they are doing standing over you to say "what are you doing you ****ing idiot?" for those moments when you're heading in the wrong direction.

as I’m using the metal that had been cut out to fit windows in vans they are pretty big and I could get more than a dozen of those panels out of just one so plenty of opportunity to practice in any case, I’m handing the proper fabrication off to my dad, as that’s very much his area of expertise, I just wanted to see if I could make something reasonable out of what I have.

 

[AndyRKett]

Ok…. So in the event of a nuclear war, at least this seat anchor point will survive…. As usual I may have over engineered it

 

[g8rpi]

Apart from the fact that it is full of cracks and flaws....
A fabricated assemby of simple flat parts welded together may have been a better approach.

 

[AndyRKett]

Apart from the fact that it is full of cracks and flaws....
A fabricated assemby of simple flat parts welded together may have been a better approach.

Thanks for popping by

 

[g8rpi]

Or you could just have bought the correct repair panel

https://www.carbodypanels4u.co.uk/fiat/punto/fiat-punto-3-door-hatchback-1994-1999/body-floor-with-holder-o-s

https://www.carbodypanels4u.co.uk/fiat/punto/fiat-punto-3-door-hatchback-1994-1999/body-floor-with-holder-n-s

 

[AndyRKett]

Or you could just have bought the correct repair panel

Not sure why you're laughing,

Thanks for the links I might just do that

That site also seems to have the rear floor repair panels I need, so I might get both sides to repair other previous bodge jobs around the rear jacking points.

https://www.carbodypanels4u.co.uk/fiat/punto/fiat-punto-3-door-hatchback-1994-1999/rear-body-floor-repair-panel-n-s-15082

One Issue I have is working around the metal added by Bertone when they turned it into a convertible, so no matter what I do some cutting and hacking will need to take place, that is just unavoidable with any rust repair.