General Pedantic MOT Tester?

[koalar]

the thread has moved away from the original question

we are talking about metal plates from 1994

We not talking about modern number plates like BMW fit.

If you want to tell the difference take a picture at night with a Flash.

it will also not show up correctly on a patrol cars camera. So if you are followed at night and they do an electronic check and see its already been flagged you will get a fine and still have to change them. You can fight the case in court but the outcome is the same and you will have to pay costs. That assuming there aren't other charges for trying to hide the cars identity

Where it should have failed an MOT is now irreverent

probably need post some photos which isn't a Good idea on an open forum. If they look wrong, faded, then possibly. I would guess they have have the larger digits that were used before 2001 so should have failed since 2018.

we can argue for another 10 pages but the outcome is still the same.

 

[RalphM]

If you take it elsewhere it's going to cost more so bite the bullet pay up
and once you have the MOT in your hand explain to the manager if they
have one that you wont be using their services again and why.

 

[Jockcl500]

I have a 2007 Panda on a personal plate originally issued in 1994. They are metal plates, black on white & yellow reflective backings, numbers are correct size, script & spacing.
The only items missing are the BS number & the plate maker’s name & postcode. Up to now I’ve have had no problems with MOT’s. However the latest tester failed the car on “incorrect plates”. & hit me for the cost of new replacements & fitting them(!) £25 - or accept a fail. His argument was that the numbers were wrong size & wrongly spaced (by 1-2 mm possibly) & may not be able to be read by cameras.
My argument was that the plates were correct at the original 1994 issue date & were valid even when fitted to a vehicle first registered at a later year, 2007. The BS standards came in just after my 1994 number & my understanding is that most, if not all, MOT requirements are never retrospective.
I don’t have access to the Tester’s Manual, but on a trawl through the internet could find nothing to prove me right or wrong.
Does anyone have any thoughts, I wonder?

It's irrelevant the year of the original personal plate all that matters it the current year of the car you have put it on, how long have you owned the plate?
Normally when you buy a personal plate, the number is issued and then you get the plates made and fitted to the car as replacements for the original ones you removed, so you would expect that a 2007 registered car would have plates made in 2007 or later and they would be made from the same modern style material that other cars of that year have fitted.
I have two "R" personal plates and if I am putting them on another car I get new ones made, the cost is not excessive and why would you not want shiny new modern ones fitted?

 

[Alfadeke21]

Because I'm a tight fisted mean penny pinching Scot I transferred the original existing plates onto a Rover Metro in 2003 until it was scrapped & the Panda bought in 2019.
The plates were in good condition & were used because of sentimental value, they being off my parent's car (Samba) pre-2003 when they passed away.

Nontheless I will be returning to my reliable local garage rather than take up cheap offers from P**** V***y & the likes. I do have a "free MOT" voucher from H*****ds that I will now take a pass on!

 

[g8rpi]

the thread has moved away from the original question

we are talking about metal plates from 1994

We not talking about modern number plates like BMW fit.

If you want to tell the difference take a picture at night with a Flash.

it will also not show up correctly on a patrol cars camera. So if you are followed at night and they do an electronic check and see its already been flagged you will get a fine and still have to change them. You can fight the case in court but the outcome is the same and you will have to pay costs. That assuming there aren't other charges for trying to hide the cars identity

Where it should have failed an MOT is now irreverent

probably need post some photos which isn't a Good idea on an open forum. If they look wrong, faded, then possibly. I would guess they have have the larger digits that were used before 2001 so should have failed since 2018.

we can argue for another 10 pages but the outcome is still the same.

You are now making assumptions (that the old plates were not retroreflective) and avoiding the fact tht your statement the "aluminium plates are illegal" was incorrect.
There is no question thet the OP's plates did not meet the standard required for a post 2001 car, but that's not the question, the question is "Should the MOT inspector have failed the car for character size / spacing if they had to use a ruler to check it". The answer to this is no, the testers manual clearly states plates are only to rejected for character size / spacing if they are obviously visually non compliant.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

As JR points out, there may be "history" here for the garage concerned - by the way Alfadeke, I'm just longing to ask, was it one of the "Lightening Fit" type organisations? - Many years ago the first workshop I managed lost it's MOT tester licence due to a stupid misunderstanding and getting it back was a quite stressful experience (with the pressure mostly being applied by my organisation's senior management!)

The other great lesson is, once you find a garage you trust (like me and Harrisons), just stay with them. I don't grudge paying full price for an "honest" MOT secure in the knowledge that I'm not being "hooked in" with a low price offer, often less than what it's costing the garage to do the test, where they are looking for every reasonable - and sometimes "unreasonable" - excuse to make money from me.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

are they just metal ?

or a metal sandwich between an acrylic sheets

They where all metal.

I think it was a reflective coating applied to a metal backing plate (aluminium I think) then the numbers were either stuck to or printed onto a clear thin film almost like you’d get on a new phone screen.

When we first got our 2012 london edition mini which had these plates the film started peeling off one corner and as many acrylic plates have a protective film I stupidly thought it was the same and peeled it back taking part of the first digits off with them. Mini just replaced the front plate no questions asked but later when my wife had a little bump in the car, rather than the front number plate shattering into a million bits it just neatly curved around the shape of the bumper. Took it off straighten it out and put it back on the car, no harm done.

These days Mini don’t fit those metal plates any more so I wonder if they are no longer allowed ?

 

[jrkitching]

Returning to JR Kitching's first reply could I then argue that the plates were in conformity to the regulations when the Panda was first registered in 2007 and should continue to remain so?

Not a chance. What happened at the MOT testing station has removed any possible claim to plausible deniability.

So if you are followed at night and they do an electronic check and see its already been flagged you will get a fine and still have to change them. You can fight the case in court but the outcome is the same and you will have to pay costs. That assuming there aren't other charges for trying to hide the cars identity

I think this point is well made.

I'd expect there is now a permanent record in the car's MOT history (it's worth checking) that it was failed because its numberplates did not conform to the required standard. If you've put the plates it failed on back on the car, good luck with pleading ignorance if you're stopped.

I'd say this is unlikely, but then again, I'd have said it's unlikely you'd have had it flagged by an MOT Tester.

Personally I'd take them off and, for sentimental reasons, hang them on the garage wall. I wouldn't want to experience an uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach every time I went past a police car.

 

[Alfadeke21]

Jock,
After this personal experience I couldn’t agree with you more. My usual garage has always instilled total confidence in any MOT and servicing work I’ve had done.

The only reason I used this alternative test station was I was unable to get a booking with them at the time I wanted (busy with coronavirus catch-up).
This time I used one of the two major Scottish car dealers (no names…) who were offering 1/2 price tests.
To be fair to them and to keep this narrative accurate, I received a call from the reception team that the car was about be failed through having a problem with the number plates and was offered the choice of either having them fit compliant plates or take it away, get my own & return it for retest. By allowing them to supply and fit the new plates I avoided being issued with the official failure certificate and presumably any adverse comment recorded.

 

[Alfadeke21]

I do have a voucher from Halfords for a feee mot, since which time I’ve had a couple of mails suggesting I upgrade my appointment to include a service. Viewed with a touch of suspicion now I get the feeling I’m in line for another fail having a rusty exhaust back box! Just the usual weak point with the outer layer coming apart but otherwise sound and leak free….

But you never know??

 

[DaveMcT]

You can drive a car (or bike) with (1) no number plates fitted. It's illegal of course but when you get stopped the worst is a £60 fine and no points on the driving licence. You can drive a car with different ("illegal") fonts but if its readable nobody seems to care. You can (2) drive a car with doctored plates (flips, coatings and such) which will get the book thrown at you and no doubt a great many points slapped on your licence.
(1) Is considered an oversight. (2) Is pushing your luck. (3) Is clear deception.

The police will pull the car if they can't read the plate or it looks doctored. Presumably they can read yours or the car would have been stopped by now.
At the next MOT just fit a set of cheap "correct" plates and be done with the issue.

 

[g8rpi]

I do have a voucher from Halfords for a feee mot, since which time I’ve had a couple of mails suggesting I upgrade my appointment to include a service. Viewed with a touch of suspicion now I get the feeling I’m in line for another fail having a rusty exhaust back box! Just the usual weak point with the outer layer coming apart but otherwise sound and leak free….

But you never know??

They can fail the Fiat dual wall rear boxes for a rotten outer skin if it is hanging down and likely to fall off. They can also "refuse to test" if it has sharp edges sticking out that could injure the tester.
Just cut off any loose bits and make sure there is nothing sticking out.

Robert G8RPI

 

[jrkitching]

By allowing them to supply and fit the new plates I avoided being issued with the official failure certificate and presumably any adverse comment recorded

I'd check the MOT history online and see what they actually recorded.

Sometimes even when you get a pass with no advisories, you'll see an initial fail recorded. This happened to me once when I'd omitted to check the screenwash fluid; they must have topped it up without telling me or charging me, but recorded it as an initial fail, with a pass on retest. I only found out about this by checking the online record.

 

[koalar]

You are now making assumptions (that the old plates were not retroreflective) and avoiding the fact tht your statement the "aluminium plates are illegal" was incorrect.
There is no question thet the OP's plates did not meet the standard required for a post 2001 car, but that's not the question, the question is "Should the MOT inspector have failed the car for character size / spacing if they had to use a ruler to check it". The answer to this is no, the testers manual clearly states plates are only to rejected for character size / spacing if they are obviously visually non compliant.

correct I wrote 3 short lines on that assumption.

I also wrote 3 time that I didn't know if it should have been a fail on a MOT

But going off the above I dont know how it can be visually compliant as the font was different pre 2001. Unless i assume the reg only had straight letter in it as the more curly font stands out like a sore thumb

i seem to be the only one that thinks its a fair fail. And see it as the other MOT stations missed it and the new one didn't and was cheaper. But i can live with that.


Once flagged as a fail there's no option but to change anyhow

 

[g8rpi]

correct I wrote 3 short lines on that assumption.

I also wrote 3 time that I didn't know if it should have been a fail on a MOT

But going off the above I dont know how it can be visually compliant as the font was different pre 2001. Unless i assume the reg only had straight letter in it as the more curly font stands out like a sore thumb

i seem to be the only one that thinks its a fair fail. And see it as the other MOT stations missed it and the new one didn't and was cheaper. But i can live with that.


Once flagged as a fail there's no option but to change anyhow

As this is a pedantic thread you sain in post #6
"metal plates aren't legal on cars registered after 2001"

You have provided no evidence to support this, just changed tack to the "OP's plate is illegal"

No one disagrees, as far as I can see, that the OP's plates were illegal.

 

[koalar]

As this is a pedantic thread you sain in post #6
"metal plates aren't legal on cars registered after 2001"

You have provided no evidence to support this, just changed tack to the "OP's plate is illegal"

No one disagrees, as far as I can see, that the OP's plates were illegal.

right or wrong I was using this as a reference

Morning all

I've been looking at getting a set of pressed metal number plates (from dubmeister, as they sell 'uk road legal' plates which supposedly conform to all of the standards etc). Just to be sure, I thought i'd ask the local police what their view of using these plates were.

Mails below, but thought i'd pass on the information - may come in useful for someone!

---------------------------------------

Quote:
Hello

I have a query regarding the legality of pressed metal number plates. When the subject has been discussed, there have been mixed opinions, and cases where friends have been told to remove them, however I've read through "The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001" (source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...chedule/2/made) which the extract below explains that providing the plates conform to the BSI standards, then they are legal.

PART 1
VEHICLES REGISTERED AND NEW REGISTRATION PLATES FITTED ON OR AFTER 1ST SEPTEMBER 2001 (MANDATORY SPECIFICATION)
1. The plate must be made of retroreflecting material which, as regards its construction, colour and other qualities, complies with the requirements of—
(a)the British Standard specification for retroreflecting number plates published on 15 January 1998 under number BS AU 145d(1),
or
(b)any other relevant standard or specification recognised for use in an EEA State and which, when in use, offers a performance equivalent to that offered by a plate complying with the British Standard specification,and which, in either case, is marked with the number (or such other information as is necessary to permit identification) of that standard or specification.
2. Where the registration mark is displayed on the front of the vehicle, it must have black characters on a white background.
3. Where the registration mark is displayed on the back of the vehicle, it must have black characters on a yellow background.

I've seen a response on a forum from a supplier of pressed metal number plates that display them as road legal, who explained the following:

Our plates have been developed with a large plate manufacturer that supplies for example official Netherlands plates and serves other countries and manufactures to many differing standards world wide.. They don't have to be tested by BSI, just be designed to comply, and actually comply if tested, and this is what we have done.

The BSAU 145d regulation has been finely gone through by our manufacturer and relevant sections have be exceeded or met, including a section specifically designed to exclude metal plates, which necessitated a subtle exclusive redesign of the metal base plate and different material to 'regular' Euro show plates, as well as altered letter tooling and lastly permanent laser marking of supplier info and maker info and the standard they are made to.

They have been fully tested by our manufacturer and pre tested against the BS145d standard by the German DIN institute – (in case any major flaws we hadn’t picked up on), who have set up testing environments for BSAU145d now, are testing and will award a certificate to this effect on completion.

We are fully satisfied they comply or exceed BSAU145d and have been told by a British Standards institute they can be marked as such if we are sure they comply by cross referencing DIN regs that duplicate/exceed sections of BS145d and amendments we have made, and they offered additional help if we needed, which we don't.

No UK authority has the knowledge or means to test plates other than British Standard Institute. No Police or local authority can challenge a user as they are marked correctly as to comply, and that’s the end of it as far as prosecution of the user.
If they want to test them they would have to send off to BSI and pay the £6000 to £15,000 fee...and result would be they pass anyway.

Our dealers/suppliers take proper relevant driver/vehicle ID which is a major part of plates being legal, correct lettering and physical plate spec alone is not sufficient as prevention of vehicle cloning is probably the main issue in 'illegal' plates and prosecutions.

Can you please confirm the stance on this matter? Where would I stand if I had metal number plates which conform to BSI rulings but an officer requested I removed the plates and/or issued a fixed penalty notice.

Thanks in advance,

Paul
I then got the following (very quick - surprisingly) response:

Quote:
Paul

The answer to your query is in the first section of “PART 1” below and quote

“ The plate must be MADE OF retroreflecting material “

Steel is not a retroreflecting material.

The section you have included from the number plate supplier does not state the plates have been tested and met the British Standard . It states the manufacturer of the plates has done their own testing . It also states they have been told they can mark the plates with the BS mark “ IF THEY ARE SURE THEY COMPLY” which still does not show standards have been met and purely infers it.

Please note that it is the responsibility of the driver/keeper of a vehicle to ensure their vehicle is road legal and anything that casts a doubt on the legality of the registration plate should make you wary of using it.

There is suggestion on the internet that some unscrupulous sellers of show plates could offer to mark the plates to BS standard however they do so knowing that it is the driver who will have to answer the questions at the road side and pay the fine.

Plates have a fixed font style and size. Retroreflective means the plate should reflect light back to its source with a minimum scattering of light which is met by using the vinyl reflective material on the backing of the plate similar to the backing of road signs and the livery on the sides of emergency vehicles which cannot be met by simply painting a metal plate orange or white.

The standards for plates is to allow clear reading of plates and clear photography of plates by roadside cameras and automatic number plate recognition cameras and if your plate fails to meet the standard and you get stopped by police then you are open to prosecution.

You will probably have heard of a spray that was available to stop speed cameras seeing a number plate. This spray directly affected the refelectivity of the plate and could open the owner to other more serious offences than just plate offences.

If you affix such plates to your car then where stopped by police and issued with a fine then your only recourse would be to dispute the case in court in front of a magistrate which would probably still incur you being fined ( now with additional court costs ) the only difference being that the plate manufacturer would then be under scrutiny for supplying the plates.
Also worth pointing out (which the officer above didn't mention) is that ANPR cannot read pressed metal plates as the letters aren't flat to the plate - they stick out, which flags you up to their systems (a friend has been pulled for this, while using 'uk road legal pressed metal plates' since I sent this mail).

So bottom line is, even if a seller advertises them as being road legal, don't always take their word for it

Cheers

 

[g8rpi]

Glad your local cops have nothing better to do.
The reply is crap. Since when was acrylic (the material most post 2001 plates are made from retroreflective?

Edit:
the statement "Also worth pointing out (which the officer above didn't mention) is that ANPR cannot read pressed metal plates as the letters aren't flat to the plate - they stick out, which flags you up to their systems (a friend has been pulled for this, while using 'uk road legal pressed metal plates' since I sent this mail)." is also nonsense. 3D plates are legal. Being 3D does not affect ANPR cameras, If anything they are easier to read with a machine.

It's also not clear how much of the above post is yours or copied off the internet.

I'm done.

Robert G8RPI

 

[chris3234]

Glad your local cops have nothing better to do.
The reply is crap. Since when was acrylic (the material most post 2001 plates are made from retroreflective?

Edit:
the statement "Also worth pointing out (which the officer above didn't mention) is that ANPR cannot read pressed metal plates as the letters aren't flat to the plate - they stick out, which flags you up to their systems (a friend has been pulled for this, while using 'uk road legal pressed metal plates' since I sent this mail)." is also nonsense. 3D plates are legal. Being 3D does not affect ANPR cameras, If anything they are easier to read with a machine.

It's also not clear how much of the above post is yours or copied off the internet.

I'm done.

Robert G8RPI

True the bit about ano can't read 3d plates is BS
Or all three people with this "4d" effect plates would be immune to anpr
This don't the case


Allthrough these type of plates look tacky and I believe from September are being made illegal as well

 

[DaveMcT]

I wonder when number plate law enforcement became a safety issue. Then again same could be argued about emissions.

 

[jrkitching]

I wonder when number plate law enforcement became a safety issue. Then again same could be argued about emissions.

Number plate changes are mainly driven by ANPR recognition requirements; it could be argued that folks who don't want their vehicle to be identifiable might be inclined to drive or behave less safely. ANPR isn't just about driving offences; it helps catch murderers and child molesters too.

Emissions kill people, just not so obviously or directly as bald tyres.