Van Diemen
New member
What are peoples thoughts on Panda pedal position for healing and toeing?
General Pedal Positions / Healing and toeing
- Thread starter Van Diemen
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General Pedal Positions / Healing and toeing
Victor|100HP
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I find the gaspedal is a bit too low for proper heal/toe down shifts. When pressing the brake pedal down enough for me to reach the gas pedal, I'm nearly doing a full blown emergency stop.
Might just be me though
Might just be me though
I'll second Victor's comments. The brakes are that sensitive it makes it difficult to do in a controlled manner, too!
chauspain
Member
Not found this easy to do in the Panda, never had too may issues in other cars.
Might be easier if I had smaller feet or a bit more room in the car though!
Might be easier if I had smaller feet or a bit more room in the car though!
ScoobyChris
Established member
I think the problem is the relative travel of each pedal which means that the brake and throttle pedals end up too far apart to easily roll between them smoothly. The other thing which seems to compound the problem is that pushing the brake pedal causes the ECU to cut engine power so I've found it's nigh on impossible to blip the throttle under braking
Chris
Chris
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OP
Van Diemen
New member
In my car there are two problems with healing and toeing which could be making it hard. The first is that even though the brakes have the legendary initial bit, the brake pedal drops below that of accelerator and make the foot movement awkward. Secondly the pedals are too far apart and stop at the same distance down the pedal arm, making it difficult to cover two pedals with one foot.
The latter item may, in part, be solved with wider/longer sports pedal pads (Fiat items shown in pics in this thread: https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-new/120813-sports-pedals.html but ideally I'd probably prefer a throttle pedal more like here: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RUBBER-CAR-PE...ryZ40197QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem). I'm not normally the sort of person who goes in for that type of aftermarket accessory, but in this case it would be a functional addition. Has anyone tried anything?
The latter item may, in part, be solved with wider/longer sports pedal pads (Fiat items shown in pics in this thread: https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-new/120813-sports-pedals.html but ideally I'd probably prefer a throttle pedal more like here: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RUBBER-CAR-PE...ryZ40197QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem). I'm not normally the sort of person who goes in for that type of aftermarket accessory, but in this case it would be a functional addition. Has anyone tried anything?
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Can do it no problem. You have to be reasonably hard on the brakes though, but no pointy heel and toeing otherwise i guess.
So its fine, but i admit many other cars have better pedal positions. Its not so much the pedal positions its more that you sit so upright in the panda. That said if you know how to heel and toe you'll adapt to it okay.
I think the main issue is the absolutely awful feel of the brake pedal no doubt to the linkages and the brake master cylinder being on the left hand side. However, under heavy-ish braking its a bit easier.
So its fine, but i admit many other cars have better pedal positions. Its not so much the pedal positions its more that you sit so upright in the panda. That said if you know how to heel and toe you'll adapt to it okay.
I think the main issue is the absolutely awful feel of the brake pedal no doubt to the linkages and the brake master cylinder being on the left hand side. However, under heavy-ish braking its a bit easier.
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Never really had the urge to try tbh....
OP
OP
Van Diemen
New member
Have you tried it on a 100HP? I don't know how the pedals sit compared to other variants.
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ScoobyChris
Established member
One place I'd use HnT without heavy braking would be approaching a downhill roundabout/junction where I'd want to do a rev-matched downshift but hold the speed with the brakes so it doesn't run on....
I'll have to have another go tomorrow
Chris
One place I'd use HnT without heavy braking would be approaching a downhill roundabout/junction where I'd want to do a rev-matched downshift but hold the speed with the brakes so it doesn't run on....
I'll have to have another go tomorrow
Chris
It can be done (I do do it in the above situation fairly often), but it is certainly more dificult.
Don't have a problem with the pedal positioning but I definately find the brakes too sensitive for easy healing and toeing. Need to be really delicate to avoid standing the car on its nose. I'm thinking of trying harder pads to see if this helps. Anyone else gone down this route?
On a related matter, as Chris mentions, the ECU seems to cut power as soon a you apply the brakes which also makes left foot braking a no-no.
Don't have a problem with the pedal positioning but I definately find the brakes too sensitive for easy healing and toeing. Need to be really delicate to avoid standing the car on its nose. I'm thinking of trying harder pads to see if this helps. Anyone else gone down this route?
On a related matter, as Chris mentions, the ECU seems to cut power as soon a you apply the brakes which also makes left foot braking a no-no.
I don't think harder pads will do anything to improve the atrocious brake feel which is surely down to the linkages. So i really think you are going the wrong way about it. Learn to be more sensitive with the crappy brake feel and you can do it. Tbh there is no point bothering to heel and toe if you are just cruising up to a roundabout.
As i said earlier it will work better when you brake harder. The ECU does not prevent you from blipping the throttle when you are on the brake.
Well tried this tonight and it is possible in the 100HP but you have to be very soft on the accelerator.
I have never really gotten the point in it though, any one care to explain?
I have never really gotten the point in it though, any one care to explain?
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Damn fine heal toe there.
ScoobyChris
Established member
And some more truly phenomenal footwork here....
As for why you'd use it, if you imagine the purist phases of approaching something like a corner, you'd have a braking phase, then a rev-matched downshift, then you'd be accelerating through the corner. If you heel 'n' toe you can combine the first two phases which means you can be braking much later - essential on a track where every second counts.
As I mentioned above, the other place I'd use it is to stop the car running on going downhill which will mean I have a fixed speed to match the revs to when I change gear, rather than having a moving target
Chris
As for why you'd use it, if you imagine the purist phases of approaching something like a corner, you'd have a braking phase, then a rev-matched downshift, then you'd be accelerating through the corner. If you heel 'n' toe you can combine the first two phases which means you can be braking much later - essential on a track where every second counts.
As I mentioned above, the other place I'd use it is to stop the car running on going downhill which will mean I have a fixed speed to match the revs to when I change gear, rather than having a moving target
Chris
The first video illustrates it to perfection....The 'blipping' of the throttle allows smoother rev-matched gear downshifts whilst still controlling the braking....Maintaining speed and momentum (which is key to fast lap times)
The race car in the video has such a snappy throttle that the engine responds instantly to the quick 'blip' therefore allowing the smooth downshift and maintained power....The pedal box is roomy and the pedals are evenly matched and bottom pivotted to allow it.
However, in a standard road car, the throttle response isn't anywhere near that quick, the throttle is usually bottom pivotted, whereas the brake is usually top pivotted, meaning they 'travel' in 'opposite' directions making it all the more difficult and to be honest....we're not talking a huge amount of benefit in terms of time saved, certainly not in a normal road scenario.
Personally I'd leave it for track days and more importantly, track cars....
ScoobyChris
Established member
I had an experiment this morning and you're right - the system allows you to add throttle if your foot is only on the brake, however if you're applying throttle and then left foot brake, it cuts power/revs and pressing the throttle has no affect. Much better than the VAG DBW system which cuts power in all circumstances but not as good as the Ford system which just behaves like a non-DBW.
Chris
The first video illustrates it to perfection....The 'blipping' of the throttle allows smoother rev-matched gear downshifts whilst still controlling the braking....Maintaining speed and momentum (which is key to fast lap times)
The race car in the video has such a snappy throttle that the engine responds instantly to the quick 'blip' therefore allowing the smooth downshift and maintained power....The pedal box is roomy and the pedals are evenly matched and bottom pivotted to allow it.
However, in a standard road car, the throttle response isn't anywhere near that quick, the throttle is usually bottom pivotted, whereas the brake is usually top pivotted, meaning they 'travel' in 'opposite' directions making it all the more difficult and to be honest....we're not talking a huge amount of benefit in terms of time saved, certainly not in a normal road scenario.
Personally I'd leave it for track days and more importantly, track cars....
Agree with you on the whole (not sure about 'most' road cars having bottom pivotted throttle pedals though
), but surely we're talking about the enjoyment of driving and gaining skills to further that enjoyment rather than saving time while driving on the road. Granted, while toddling off to Tescos in the rush hour I wouldn't bother with it, but while driving my favourite roads at 6am on a Sunday morning, a perfectly timed heel and toe downchange or two really adds to the experience. Also, using this and other skills on the road means that come trackday time it all flows naturally, which can only be a good thing.
LOL....You know what, I checked the Panda and you're right.... Although in my defence, several of my cars in the past had bottom mounted throttle pedals....
....I stand by my point about the race car having 'matched' pedals though which definately makes it easier....I guess so....I can just picture people 'trying it out' on the roads and ending up in a hedge!
