Technical Panda 4x4 1.3 MJT vs 0.9 TA

[ALA85]

I've tried finding some information on this, but I haven't really found anything concrete yet.

I've been driving a 2015 Panda 4x4 TwinAir for the past year and it's been mostly a great experience. I've done a fair amount of off-roading with it on some difficult terrain and it's surprised me more than a few times. However, even since before I bought the current Panda, my mind has been set on the 1.3 MJT 4x4 Cross (not even entirely sure why, probably mostly because everyone in Italy says the MJT is a better engine, has been around longer, etc.) I bought the standard TwinAir 4x4 because I couldn't afford/find a 1.3 MJT Cross 4x4 and I needed a car ASAP at the time.

I've been looking for a used 1.3 Cross here in Italy and I've found a few here and there, not exactly cheap mind you. But my question is this: which version is ultimately better as an off-roader, which for me is my most important consideration. I've read some people say that the shorter 1st gear of the TwinAir is actually an advantage over the MJT, I've heard that the MJT doesn't need a short 1st gear because it has higher torque...10 hp difference, torque at different RPMs, petrol vs. diesel...I can't seem to wrap my head around it.

So which engine is better off-road, the petrol or diesel? 0.9 twin cylinder turbo, or 1.3 4 cylinder diesel? 5 gears, 6 gears? Help!

Edit: Also, of course, which would be better from a maintenance POV taking into account off-roading etc.

Grazie!

 

[The Panda Nut]

Both are good. Normally I would say diesel would be best but unless you are doing a lot of off road the TA is capable enough. The running gear is the same The diesel has a bit more front end weight, TA has a very low first gear. I have tried both. I am now undecided as to which is best. The diesel will use less fuel and has more torque. I have towed a 1200kg caravan out of a very muddy field with the TA up a steep bank and then took it to another site away from inminent flood risk. It did that job fine. I really think its down to you which you like the feel of more and what your split of on off road is. I now wouldnt swap the TA for a diesel as the differences are not enough ofr meto see the benefit of the expense.

 

[ALA85]

Both are good. Normally I would say diesel would be best but unless you are doing a lot of off road the TA is capable enough. The running gear is the same The diesel has a bit more front end weight, TA has a very low first gear. I have tried both. I am now undecided as to which is best. The diesel will use less fuel and has more torque. I have towed a 1200kg caravan out of a very muddy field with the TA up a steep bank and then took it to another site away from inminent flood risk. It did that job fine. I really think its down to you which you like the feel of more and what your split of on off road is. I now wouldnt swap the TA for a diesel as the differences are not enough ofr meto see the benefit of the expense.

Thanks for the reply, makes sense.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Diesel has a slightly higher ground clearance too.

 

[porta]

Having had/have both, (now on the twinair) I can safely say that they are equally as competent off road but the TA requires a ‘calmer’ driving style so that you don’t overrev and start the wheels spinning. The diesel has more low down grunt and is therefore more controlled at lower speed.
The TA is a hoot to drive on the road and should have been called Panda Integrale, but driving it like that decimates fuel economy. The diesel on road understeers more quickly than the TA, but the fuel economy is much better and, within speed limits, still entertaining to drive!

 

[ALA85]

Diesel has a slightly higher ground clearance too.

That's true, but ground clearance difference is pretty easily resolvable.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

That's true, but ground clearance difference is pretty easily resolvable.

How?

 

[Eltezz]

You buy a lift kit from a company like Rialzi 4x4. They market kits in Italy for the Panda.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

You buy a lift kit from a company like Rialzi 4x4. They market kits in Italy for the Panda.

That doesn't affect the difference in ground clearance difference between the two models, which is what we were asked to give feedback about?

 

[Eltezz]

I think the OP was referring to it being easy to make the TA have as much ground clearance as the diesel by this kind of mod (I think!).

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I think the OP was referring to it being easy to make the TA have as much ground clearance as the diesel by this kind of mod (I think!).

I wasn't sure, that's why I asked them.

 

[porta]

Diesel has a slightly higher ground clearance too.

The TA Cross has 3mm more ground clearance than the multijet, courtesy of a heavier front end diesel lump…but 3mm is negligible anyway.
From fiats own site:
“When combined with specific springs and redesigned bodywork, they help increase the ground clearance to 161 mm for the TwinAir version and 158 mm for the MultiJet model”

THE NEW FIAT PANDA CROSS - A CAR LIKE NO OTHER

Being able to offer something truly unique in the increasingly competitive SUV segment is no small achievement but in the FIAT Panda Cross that’s exactly what you get – a car like no other!

www.media.stellantis.com

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Thanks. I had misremembered and look rather a dick as a result.

 

[ALA85]

That doesn't affect the difference in ground clearance difference between the two models, which is what we were asked to give feedback about?

That doesn't affect the difference in ground clearance difference between the two models, which is what we were asked to give feedback about?

The differences I'm interested in (in my original post) had more to do with the different engines types, specs, gearing etc. Yes the diesel Cross has, if I'm not mistaken, an extra centimeter compared to a non-cross regular TwinAir 4x4, but it's a relatively easily resolvable difference by either adding spacers, new coils, complete lift kit, etc., which here in Italy where I live are easy to find and order.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

The differences I'm interested in (in my original post) had more to do with the different engines types, specs, gearing etc. Yes the diesel Cross has, if I'm not mistaken, an extra centimeter compared to a non-cross regular TwinAir 4x4, but it's a relatively easily resolvable difference by either adding spacers, new coils, complete lift kit, etc., which here in Italy where I live are easy to find and order.

I am grateful. I had clearly answered the wrong question - and answered it wrongly to boot.

The answer IMHO is diesel. The TA does a job of disguising its lack of torque with a super low gear, but the diesel will plug away at lower revs and is generally happier to grunt away without the need to rev - as @porta indicates above. Given the choice of torque or power off road, torque wins just about every time.

The ultimate answer is a remapped diesel* with more clearance via a kit of your choice.

*Although that triggers a debate about how much torque the drivetrain will handle, something I've never seen definitively answered.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

The differences I'm interested in (in my original post) had more to do with the different engines types, specs, gearing etc. Yes the diesel Cross has, if I'm not mistaken, an extra centimeter compared to a non-cross regular TwinAir 4x4, but it's a relatively easily resolvable difference by either adding spacers, new coils, complete lift kit, etc., which here in Italy where I live are easy to find and order.

The difference in height is mostly down to the tyres on the Cross being ever so slightly taller (185 section tyre is 12mm bigger in diameter than the 175s). Also, different info appears in different places: some testers suggest there’s less ground clearance under the TA version than the diesel. In reality I suspect they’re both the same, since the under tray is identical.

The issue I have is not ground clearance, but the width between the wheels from one side of the car to the other (the ‘track’ width). Being narrower than most bigger 4x4s - I have a 2013 Defender too - this means it won’t straddle the raised ridge down the centre of a deeply-rutted route. The solution is to sit over to one side and hopefully not drop into the groove - and that’s all down to the grip from the tyres.

Something not mentioned anywhere is the diesel’s advantage going downhill. Here, it is likely to offer much more in the way of engine braking (owing to having four cylinders and the high compression of the diesel). This - to some extent - offsets the need for Hill Descent Control, which is the only ‘offroad system’ difference between the Cross and the normal 4x4.

For off-road use, it’s not the power (HP or kW) difference that matters, but the torque (in Nm). More torque equals more lugging power, and more torque at lower revs means more ability to ease through the tough stuff or clamber over rocks. The diesel has both a lot more torque and delivers this at lower revs: ideal for more control off-road.

EDIT: Correction -- Weight wise, the diesel version is 35kg heavier that the TwinAir 4x4 model (not the 100kg I put here before!*) - I assume mostly at the front . (Panda 4x4 TwinAir = 1090kg, 4x4 Diesel 1125kg, 4x4 Cross with diesel 1165kg according to my 2018 handbook)

(* However, the 4x4 models are heading for 100kg heavier than their 2WD siblings, which is where I got that from)

 

[porta]

The difference in height is mostly down to the tyres on the Cross being ever so slightly taller (185 section tyre is 12mm bigger in diameter than the 175s). Also, different info appears in different places: some testers suggest there’s less ground clearance under the TA version than the diesel. In reality I suspect they’re both the same, since the under tray is identical.

The issue I have is not ground clearance, but the width between the wheels from one side of the car to the other (the ‘track’ width). Being narrower than most bigger 4x4s - I have a 2013 Defender too - this means it won’t straddle the raised ridge down the centre of a deeply-rutted route. The solution is to sit over to one side and hopefully not drop into the groove - and that’s all down to the grip from the tyres.

Something not mentioned anywhere is the diesel’s advantage going downhill. Here, it is likely to offer much more in the way of engine braking (owing to having four cylinders and the high compression of the diesel). This - to some extent - offsets the need for Hill Descent Control, which is the only ‘offroad system’ difference between the Cross and the normal 4x4.

For off-road use, it’s not the power (HP or kW) difference that matters, but the torque (in Nm). More torque equals more lugging power, and more torque at lower revs means more ability to ease through the tough stuff or clamber over rocks. The diesel has both a lot more torque and delivers this at lower revs: ideal for more control off-road.

Weight wise, the diesel version is 100kg heavier - I assume mostly at the front

The trick with the TA is not to over rev and set the wheels spinning, apart from that, both the diesel and TA cope comparatively equally in the mud and snow and, as you say, the diesel is heavier, and can drag the car down and understeer more quickly than the TA. Not to the extent our landays and pickups did, but noticeably more.
As I stated, my cars have to perform off road on the farm all the time, I’ve had three sheep in the back of the pandas going up a steep muddy field with slush on the grass, the only panda that struggled was the 169 climbing, the two crosses having better electrickery to save face and proper M&S tyres
But, if a car starts to ‘go’ then there’s no stopping it, I don’t care whether it’s a tricked up Landy or a basic 141 4x4 set up

 

[porta]

I am grateful. I had clearly answered the wrong question - and answered it wrongly to boot.

The answer IMHO is diesel. The TA does a job of disguising its lack of torque with a super low gear, but the diesel will plug away at lower revs and is generally happier to grunt away without the need to rev - as @porta indicates above. Given the choice of torque or power off road, torque wins just about every time.

The ultimate answer is a remapped diesel* with more clearance via a kit of your choice.

*Although that triggers a debate about how much torque the drivetrain will handle, something I've never seen definitively answered.

What happened to the guy that put the 100hp engine in a panda climbing or the one that was going put a 500 Abarth engine in one?!?

 

[Bonefish Blues]

What happened to the guy that put the 100hp engine in a panda climbing or the one that was going put a 500 Abarth engine in one?!?

I think it might not have happened...

 

[porta]

I think it might not have happened...

The 100hp did, it was on YouTube but can’t find it, and not heard any long term, it was in a 169 Climbing and pre TA days.
The Abarth one was a ‘I’m going to investigate…’ dream