Opinions on this trolley jack?

[AnthonyH]

Nothing wrong with shaping a block of wood - I see lots of wood blocks being used by the pros on lifts etc.

I've seen them used on Youtube and have plenty of spare wood, so I may give this a try.

I also think i'm going to have to use wood to lower the subframe down with the jack.

 

[AnthonyH]

I used the jack for the first time a short time ago. My review;

Pros
1) I got it cheap. £90 delivered for a 3 tonne jack is a steal
2) It lifted the car to its prescribed height with great ease
3) Its very sturdy and appears well built

Cons
1) Its heavy, and a two hand carry
2) Its hard to find a decent jack pad

I'll continue to use my toy jack for work that just requires the wheels to lift. But if I need more space under the car this does the trick.

 

[AnthonyH]

I bought the new trolley jack to give me enough access to replace the front subframe on my EVO. It looks like this....

I've watched a lot of YouTube vids to give me guidance and have a few questions...

Why does the track rod end have to come off? Looks like it may not need to?
Does the engine have to be supported? The Haynes guide isn't mentioning it?
What are the major problems I'm going to encounter? I've been putting penetrant on the bolts.

 

[AnthonyH]

I started the job but it was all a struggle, the exhaust mid section came off and that fought for its life lol

The next thing to come off are the tie rod ends but the nut is stuck solid. I've had penetrant on them and the biggest spanner I have, but can't get them free at all, any suggestions?

 

[HughJarsse]

try a bit of heat. I have had success using a paint stripping heat gun, on higher setting, Also, when part is warm, try tapping all the way round, (or as far as you can ) with a hammer, (tapping gently, not really wellying it!) Might be possible to 'break' the rusted seal between nut and shoulder.

 

[AnthonyH]

try a bit of heat. I have had success using a paint stripping heat gun, on higher setting, Also, when part is warm, try tapping all the way round, (or as far as you can ) with a hammer, (tapping gently, not really wellying it!) Might be possible to 'break' the rusted seal between nut and shoulder.

Good idea with the tapping, I've come away from it now, but back onto it tomorrow.

I'll also look up the cost of a paint stripping gun, i've been meaning to get one, but not got around to it.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Probably easier to just take the track rod end out of the steering knuckle

Having just done the subframe on my mk1 I am skeptical that the steering rack needs to come out at all, I just unbolted it from the subframe and let it float there till I was ready to put the restored subframe back on.

 

[AnthonyH]

Probably easier to just take the track rod end out of the steering knuckle

Having just done the subframe on my mk1 I am skeptical that the steering rack needs to come out at all, I just unbolted it from the subframe and let it float there till I was ready to put the restored subframe back on.

I was wondering about this myself. It doesn't look like the track rod end is connected to the subframe. And so its a precaution against the arms dropping suddenly/violently and pulling on the track rod? Which doesn't look likely.

The Haynes manual also said I should take off the back box, which I didn't, I can't see the point.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I was wondering about this myself. It doesn't look like the track rod end is connected to the subframe. And so its a precaution against the arms dropping suddenly/violently and pulling on the track rod? Which doesn't look likely.

The Haynes manual also said I should take off the back box, which I didn't, I can't see the point.

As anyone on here who has read the posts I've made about shocking stuff to loosen them will know I'm a big fan for applying shocking forces intelligently. However simply hitting things very hard, or failing to appreciate damage may be caused to other parts from transferred forces, will often end in tears. If you're going to apply useful forces to the track rod locking nut then I suggest you place a large and heavy object on the other side of the nut before hitting it - Like this for instance:

On the left is my 4lb club hammer and on the right is my 1lb ball pein. Rest the club hammer against one of the flats of the nut and clout the opposite flat with the smaller hammer. This has two advantages over just hitting the unsupported nut:

1. Much less destructive force will be transmitted into the track rod end, the inner ball joint on the end of the rack and the steering rod itself as the force will be concentrated in the nut and absorbed by the club hammer rather than the side rod, track rod end and rack.

2. Much more beneficially, the nut will be slightly, temporarily, deformed with every hit which will greatly assist in breaking the rust and helping releasing oil to penetrate.

I find it very helpful to move the hammers around so you're not always hitting on the same two flats only - of course you need the club hammer to be directly opposite the striking hammer at all times. Also you don't need to hit the nut "stupidly" hard. Just hit it "smartly" and often. Repeated moderately hard tapping is much better than hitting it very hard but only a few times.

PS - The nut and bolt in the illustration is there just to illustrate what I mean, it's not actually a steering component! @portland_bill - Nigel, you may recognize the big bolt? - or maybe not, there's nothing particularly unique about it. It's a Daf variomatic belt tensioning bolt, the one you tightened up to adjust the belts, don't think I've ever come across anything as long on any other vehicle? The nut is just one I found lying about. Would you believe I've got 4 of those adjusting bolts? The only parts left from the extensive stock of used stuff I had when I owned my 33 van.

 

[portland_bill]

PS - The nut and bolt in the illustration is there just to illustrate what I mean, it's not actually a steering component! @portland_bill - Nigel, you may recognize the big bolt? - or maybe not, there's nothing particularly unique about it. It's a Daf variomatic belt tensioning bolt, the one you tightened up to adjust the belts, don't think I've ever come across anything as long on any other vehicle? The nut is just one I found lying about. Would you believe I've got 4 of those adjusting bolts? The only parts left from the extensive stock of used stuff I had when I owned my 33 van.

It is a long time since I've been near a variomatic adjuster, so no, it was not forefront in my mind.
You do know, don't you, that you're supposed to leave the adjuster bolt there after tightening the securing bolts. So the next guy can adjust it. Removing them is a mean trick.

 

[AnthonyH]

As anyone on here who has read the posts I've made about shocking stuff to loosen them will know I'm a big fan for applying shocking forces intelligently. However simply hitting things very hard, or failing to appreciate damage may be caused to other parts from transferred forces, will often end in tears. If you're going to apply useful forces to the track rod locking nut then I suggest you place a large and heavy object on the other side of the nut before hitting it - Like this for instance:

View attachment 448615

On the left is my 4lb club hammer and on the right is my 1lb ball pein. Rest the club hammer against one of the flats of the nut and clout the opposite flat with the smaller hammer. This has two advantages over just hitting the unsupported nut:

1. Much less destructive force will be transmitted into the track rod end, the inner ball joint on the end of the rack and the steering rod itself as the force will be concentrated in the nut and absorbed by the club hammer rather than the side rod, track rod end and rack.

2. Much more beneficially, the nut will be slightly, temporarily, deformed with every hit which will greatly assist in breaking the rust and helping releasing oil to penetrate.

I find it very helpful to move the hammers around so you're not always hitting on the same two flats only - of course you need the club hammer to be directly opposite the striking hammer at all times. Also you don't need to hit the nut "stupidly" hard. Just hit it "smartly" and often. Repeated moderately hard tapping is much better than hitting it very hard but only a few times.

PS - The nut and bolt in the illustration is there just to illustrate what I mean, it's not actually a steering component! @portland_bill - Nigel, you may recognize the big bolt? - or maybe not, there's nothing particularly unique about it. It's a Daf variomatic belt tensioning bolt, the one you tightened up to adjust the belts, don't think I've ever come across anything as long on any other vehicle? The nut is just one I found lying about. Would you believe I've got 4 of those adjusting bolts? The only parts left from the extensive stock of used stuff I had when I owned my 33 van.

I had a go at the tapping technique but it defeated me! I think there is a specific technique that must be used and it looks like an art form

I ended up buying this set of tools that will arrive today. I'll use them to pop the tie rod off at the knuckle and leave the inner and outer rod together.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0D2XZ91KZ

I managed to crack all of the bolts on the subframe, but they're all still in place while I wait to get the tie rod disconnected from the hub and the arms off.

I didn't crack the engine mount bolt that connects to the subframe, because there is an issue here. The engine mount under the battery has been disconnected in the distant past and the mount under one bolt has broken off. I've added a picture, the bolt is in the full way but some of the thread is exposed because the mount has cracked.

The Haynes manual doesn't mention supporting the engine when the subframe to engine bolt is disconnected, but I wanted to check, can i leave the engine suspended?

I can only think that the car, an EVO, has had a new clutch or gearbox in the past (i have no paperwork). How could I check which it was?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I had a go at the tapping technique but it defeated me! I think there is a specific technique that must be used and it looks like an art form

I ended up buying this set of tools that will arrive today. I'll use them to pop the tie rod off at the knuckle and leave the inner and outer rod together.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0D2XZ91KZ

I managed to crack all of the bolts on the subframe, but they're all still in place while I wait to get the tie rod disconnected from the hub and the arms off.

I didn't crack the engine mount bolt that connects to the subframe, because there is an issue here. The engine mount under the battery has been disconnected in the distant past and the mount under one bolt has broken off. I've added a picture, the bolt is in the full way but some of the thread is exposed because the mount has cracked.


View attachment 448669

The Haynes manual doesn't mention supporting the engine when the subframe to engine bolt is disconnected, but I wanted to check, can i leave the engine suspended?

I can only think that the car, an EVO, has had a new clutch or gearbox in the past (i have no paperwork). How could I check which it was?

Yes, there is a bit of a technique to "vibro loosening". It's the continual shocking of the component which gets the job done. Moderate force applied, sometimes over a number of minutes. Often not just half a dozen "clouts".

That's a wonderful kit of pulling tools but when did anyone last need to pull a Pitman Arm? I'd venture to suggest the most useful will be the lever type splitter located centre bottom? here's mine:

Which I find copes with most of the ball joints I need to separate. It has the advantage that it very seldom damages the rubber boot so the joint can be reconnected when you've finished whatever you're doing. "Pickle fork" type separators I'm not so keen on as they often ruin the boot.

A technique well worth learning is how to break a taper joint like this free using a hammer. It's probably the most common way most mechanics will split joints of this type as it's very quick (thinking bonus times here) and needs no special tools, just a sturdy hammer. One or two pound ball pein works well whereas a club hammer would be an overkill and may break something if used too "enthusiastically! You do need to know what to hit and where to hit it though, there's plenty of examples on you tube if you want to check it out.

The broken mount is going to be a bit more difficult because it's alloy so not very easily welded - I guess you don't have the broken bit either? Probably one from a scrappie would be easiest but you might find an engineering works who could weld on a fabricated part and/or build it up with weld at reasonable cost - might be worth asking if there's a works near you?

I'm not so familiar with the Punto engine/gearbox mounts as we've only had one Punto in the family (lots of Pandas though) It depends whether it bolts to the subframe itself or the inner wing/body work - You can probably ascertain this just by carefully looking at it?

 

[AnthonyH]

Yes, there is a bit of a technique to "vibro loosening". It's the continual shocking of the component which gets the job done. Moderate force applied, sometimes over a number of minutes. Often not just half a dozen "clouts".

That's a wonderful kit of pulling tools but when did anyone last need to pull a Pitman Arm? I'd venture to suggest the most useful will be the lever type splitter located centre bottom? here's mine:

View attachment 448670

Which I find copes with most of the ball joints I need to separate. It has the advantage that it very seldom damages the rubber boot so the joint can be reconnected when you've finished whatever you're doing. "Pickle fork" type separators I'm not so keen on as they often ruin the boot.

A technique well worth learning is how to break a taper joint like this free using a hammer. It's probably the most common way most mechanics will split joints of this type as it's very quick (thinking bonus times here) and needs no special tools, just a sturdy hammer. One or two pound ball pein works well whereas a club hammer would be an overkill and may break something if used too "enthusiastically! You do need to know what to hit and where to hit it though, there's plenty of examples on you tube if you want to check it out.

The broken mount is going to be a bit more difficult because it's alloy so not very easily welded - I guess you don't have the broken bit either? Probably one from a scrappie would be easiest but you might find an engineering works who could weld on a fabricated part and/or build it up with weld at reasonable cost - might be worth asking if there's a works near you?

I'm not so familiar with the Punto engine/gearbox mounts as we've only had one Punto in the family (lots of Pandas though) It depends whether it bolts to the subframe itself or the inner wing/body work - You can probably ascertain this just by carefully looking at it?

I didn't realise I was buying such an over powered set of separators LOL. When I picked up the box I thought this is so heavy it can't be for me LOL. The Amazon delivery guy left it (per my instructions when I'm out) behind our blue recycling wheelie bin. The problem being I'd moved that right to the end of the drive to give myself room to work on the subframe - so the package was in plain view of everybody. It occured to me that if the recycling truck left the bin on the footpath the delivery driver might put the parcel behind it on the footpath lol.

The box could be a a return because the box is so bashed up, or it could be that the items are so heavy they've caused this damage all by themselves. I'm not minded to return this though, unless one of them actually breaks which seems unlikely as they are a very heavy steel alloy.

This is the engine mount I have to disconnect, I could put a jack underneath it and lower it gently to see if it needs supporting. Will see I guess. I can only spend an hour or so on this per day, so it'll take a week or more to finish this job.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I didn't realise I was buying such an over powered set of separators LOL. When I picked up the box I thought this is so heavy it can't be for me LOL. The Amazon delivery guy left it (per my instructions when I'm out) behind our blue recycling wheelie bin. The problem being I'd moved that right to the end of the drive to give myself room to work on the subframe - so the package was in plain view of everybody. It occured to me that if the recycling truck left the bin on the footpath the delivery driver might put the parcel behind it on the footpath lol.

View attachment 448696

The box could be a a return because the box is so bashed up, or it could be that the items are so heavy they've caused this damage all by themselves. I'm not minded to return this though, unless one of them actually breaks which seems unlikely as they are a very heavy steel alloy.

View attachment 448699

This is the engine mount I have to disconnect, I could put a jack underneath it and lower it gently to see if it needs supporting. Will see I guess. I can only spend an hour or so on this per day, so it'll take a week or more to finish this job.

From experiance having just done basically the same job on my mk1

you don't have to support the engine as there is a mount on the cambelt side and another on the front of the gearbox (can't remember if this is exactly the same on the Grande/evo especially as I got rid of my grande in 2015.

So there is enough to hold both ends of engine and gear box up, but..... the whole engine and gearbox will want to twist backwards towards the bulkhead or if pushed too far forwards will want to twist forwards.
So you will want to do something to stop it twisting forwards or backwards as it will put strain on things like the fuel pipes and risks breaking wires.

I wedged a mallet in the front of the engine but the mk1 has a relay box that stopped it twisting backwards.



For the mount in the picture above I would unbolt it from the back of the gearboxl leave everything else in place, then once its off, remove the mount from the subframe with it off the car. you can then get to the top of the bolt to put penetrating fluid or oil on the top of the thread. Also consider replacing the mount if needed as this mount takes a lot of the wear from the twisting torque of the engine

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I didn't realise I was buying such an over powered set of separators LOL. When I picked up the box I thought this is so heavy it can't be for me LOL. The Amazon delivery guy left it (per my instructions when I'm out) behind our blue recycling wheelie bin. The problem being I'd moved that right to the end of the drive to give myself room to work on the subframe - so the package was in plain view of everybody. It occured to me that if the recycling truck left the bin on the footpath the delivery driver might put the parcel behind it on the footpath lol.

View attachment 448696

The box could be a a return because the box is so bashed up, or it could be that the items are so heavy they've caused this damage all by themselves. I'm not minded to return this though, unless one of them actually breaks which seems unlikely as they are a very heavy steel alloy.

View attachment 448699

This is the engine mount I have to disconnect, I could put a jack underneath it and lower it gently to see if it needs supporting. Will see I guess. I can only spend an hour or so on this per day, so it'll take a week or more to finish this job.

Can I ask what brand name is your purchase. The box looks very like what Neisen/Bergen/US Pro/etc use.

 

[AnthonyH]

From experiance having just done basically the same job on my mk1

you don't have to support the engine as there is a mount on the cambelt side and another on the front of the gearbox (can't remember if this is exactly the same on the Grande/evo especially as I got rid of my grande in 2015.

So there is enough to hold both ends of engine and gear box up, but..... the whole engine and gearbox will want to twist backwards towards the bulkhead or if pushed too far forwards will want to twist forwards.
So you will want to do something to stop it twisting forwards or backwards as it will put strain on things like the fuel pipes and risks breaking wires.

I wedged a mallet in the front of the engine but the mk1 has a relay box that stopped it twisting backwards.

For the mount in the picture above I would unbolt it from the back of the gearboxl leave everything else in place, then once its off, remove the mount from the subframe with it off the car. you can then get to the top of the bolt to put penetrating fluid or oil on the top of the thread. Also consider replacing the mount if needed as this mount takes a lot of the wear from the twisting torque of the engine

I just had a look at the engine supports and i'm going to wedge the engine as you've described, it will twist and lean towards the back of the car, because the car is on just two stands at the front. Its unlikely this would result in the engine falling out of the car but I don't see any value taking the risk of cracking any of these nuts and then giving myself an extra job to do. Its fairly normal to break something while trying to fix something on these old cars...

I hadn't anticipated getting the bolt pictured above off was going to be difficult, so much of the effort of repairing cars is knowing how to remove rusted bolts, or maybe that's because i'm only ever working on aged Puntos and their variants

Can I ask what brand name is your purchase. The box looks very like what Neisen/Bergen/US Pro/etc use.

It is unbranded on the box. The shipper was Amazon and the seller was a small company called ACLong, upon further investigation this company appears to be a one man outfit reselling various car tools and parts.

I wouldn't want to buy sensitive car parts from ACLong but these tools look good and worth the money, and if there are any problems I can return it to Amazon without any fuss. I've needed a set of pullers for a while, not long ago I had a lot of problems getting a windscreen wiper off, this set would have made short work of it.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I wouldn't want to buy sensitive car parts from ACLong but these tools look good and worth the money, and if there are any problems I can return it to Amazon without any fuss. I've needed a set of pullers for a while, not long ago I had a lot of problems getting a windscreen wiper off, this set would have made short work of it.

I suspect he is one of those people who buy cheap tools from China, imports them and sells them on Amazon, you’d probably find the same kit on eBay for half the cost but 6 times the wait to have it shipped from China,

You might even find them on temu for £2

Most of the tools I’ve bought recently that are job specific like compression tester, valve spring compressor, timing tools/cam locking set have all been like this, perfectly adequate if used for the job they are intended

 

[AnthonyH]

So today I attempted to get the first control arm off.

I managed to get the tie rod end disconnected from the knuckle with the separator tool, it was cool to see it come free.

The first bolt on the control arm i tackled was the one that might disintegrate because the subframe is rusted and split. I literally had to put my whole body weight into a big long breaker bar to crack it. My shoulder still hurts from that exertion, but it came off.

The second bolt i attepted on the control arm has a nut on the other side. So i was using a breaker bar on one side and a spanner on the other. I scraped my knuckles and they bled, narrowly avoided the spanner hitting me in the face and then stopped for the day. It really needs an 18mm spanner and guess what? Its the only size I don't have lol. So i've ordered another spanner set which will come tomorrow.

So today I had a 60 minute fight in the blazing sun with a ball joint and 2 rusted bolts, blimey, still smiling though! And nothing else has broken on the car...so far

A pattern does seem to be emerging which goes something like this...i can't remove a rusted nut and have to order more tools...another part nearby breaks and I have to order a new one...repeat and sooner or later the job is sorted

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

So today I attempted to get the first control arm off.

I managed to get the tie rod end disconnected from the knuckle with the separator tool, it was cool to see it come free.

The first bolt on the control arm i tackled was the one that might disintegrate because the subframe is rusted and split. I literally had to put my whole body weight into a big long breaker bar to crack it. My shoulder still hurts from that exertion, but it came off.

The second bolt i attepted on the control arm has a nut on the other side. So i was using a breaker bar on one side and a spanner on the other. I scraped my knuckles and they bled, narrowly avoided the spanner hitting me in the face and then stopped for the day. It really needs an 18mm spanner and guess what? Its the only size I don't have lol. So i've ordered another spanner set which will come tomorrow.

So today I had a 60 minute fight in the blazing sun with a ball joint and 2 rusted bolts, blimey, still smiling though! And nothing else has broken on the car...so far

A pattern does seem to be emerging which goes something like this...i can't remove a rusted nut and have to order more tools...another part nearby breaks and I have to order a new one...repeat and sooner or later the job is sorted

Welcome to "our" world Anthony. It gets a lot better with experience and more good tools. Big thing is, are you, on the whole, enjoying yourself doing it?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

As jock says it gets better with experience, sometimes just knowing how hard you can get away with hitting something with a hammer and knowing exactly where to hit, can turn a 2hr job into a 15 minute job. Ball joint separation is one of those jobs.