Technical Need some help sorting out steering troubles

[JumpJet]

Apologies... it's a long post with three distinct issues, but I was hoping I could get a little assistance in sorting out some issues I've had with my little Martina, the '66 500F.

First issue: While there has always been a little play in the steering, it seems that it's increased as of late, but that could be in my head. It looks as if all the slop in the wheel is in the steering box itself. In the video below you can see the input shaft, marked with chalk, rotate while the worm shaft and pitman arm remain static. I'm assuming this is due to excess backlash in the steering box that should be sorted with a box rebuild. I was hoping I could get a second opinion before pulling her apart.

Steering box slop video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qUl21F-1o0

Second issue:
Kingpins (yay). Is there an allowable amount of play in the steering knuckles? I think not, but since these aren't a cheap fix, I know several of you have replaced them in the past, so I'd appreciate your expert opinion.

Driver's side video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRuOtogUuRg

Passenger side video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck14GwixdPs

I believe these are aftermarket knuckles, due to the grease fittings (see attached photos), so in the interim, I've cleaned them up and pumped through fresh grease. Neither side seems particularly 'worse', but the passenger side alignment is by far worse off.

This leads me to my third issue, the alignment. The passenger side tire has some pretty significant wear on the outer shoulder. My cursory measurement of the toe (with the car in the air and no load on the suspension) is within the 0-2mm range, but again, no load. I consider myself a fairly competent mechanic, but alignments are fairly outside of my comfort zone, so I'm hesitant to start cranking in tie-rod adjustments. Attached is a pic of the passenger side front tire.

Since these are all somewhat related, I'd like to tackle them all at once rather than fix one, then ruin the alignment fixing the other. My current plan of attack is to rebuild the steering box, replace the steering knuckles, and while I'm in there, replace all the tie-rods. After that, I can take it to a local Italian-classic shop and get her alignment done.

Am I way off base here or does anyone have a better course? I'm all ears and welcome your opinions. Hopefully, I can put it off till the winter so we can enjoy her with the sun, but if you think the play is on the scary end of the spectrum, I may have to tackle it now.

Thanks in advance!

 

[fiat500]

The underbody painting and brake-pipes etc. indicate a well maintained machine, but you're right about the steering needing to be sorted. All that free play is on the serious side of not quite right. I haven't ever needed to tackle the steering box, so can't advise you, but bushes and bearings are available so that should be adjustable. The kingpin bushes must be really worn.

If you're going to drive short distances and carefully, I can understand why you want to put it off until winter, but with that worn tyre and no doubt another to follow if you replace it, I would be inclined to get to grips now...at least get all the parts you need. I would look closely at the track-rods and the balljoints as well; chances are that they are near end-of-life too.

The car will be transformed...well worth the trouble and expense.

 

[the hobbler]

I agree completelywith Peter---the steering box is on the edge of 'needs doing now' and the play in the king-pinns is excessive---in the UK iether of the king-pins would be an immediate MOT 'Fail'. That amount of play would also tend to increase the sense of 'play'in the steering. I would also suggest that the tracking (toe-in) is excessive as the outside of the tyre is wearing. When you do come to get the tracking adjusted, it is important that the track-rods are of the same length.

 

[JumpJet]

Thanks gents! I figured as much, but as glad as I can be to have some confirmation. Now the game becomes whether to try to rebuild the box or just order an already-rebuilt one. Any opinions on that?

Oddly, for the laundry list of parts this will entail, it appears cheaper to order it all from Ricambio (in the UK) rather than the main US shop (Mr. Fiat). Ricambio seems to be the only shop with all the parts needed for a box rebuild (seals, gaskets, and bearings) and even eating the core/exchange charge it comes out the best deal. Still hefty at ~640 pounds/840 USD if their shipping estimate is correct.

The seal/gasket set is easy to find, but the bearings Ricambio seems to be the only source for in-stock bearings. If anyone has one apart or has done in the past - do you know the bearing dimensions? FDRicambi says 35 x 15 x 11.9, but I'm not sure how confident I am in that to go out and order bearings to spec. Obviously, I can measure when I take it apart, but I'm trying to minimize down time as best I can.

Just thinking out loud a little, but looking to get some expert input. The limited availability of parts in the US makes it tough to piece together. Thanks for the help!

 

[plasticpig1972]

On my Gardiniera i bought a Kit with the cross bars and knuckle joints.
For the steering Box i adjusted it a little and it's ok. It's not possible to adjust all of the play out because it will then jam on full locks.
Alan

 

[the hobbler]

Have a look at the "Motobambino" or the "Passione" sites. Passione seems to have most of what you need, and if you (electronically) speak to Mark at "Motobambino", I am sure he will try and help you out. It would be worthwhile trying to get away with an adlustment for the steering-box play before you spend a pile of money on parts you might not require. Axel Gerstle, Van der Laan and Ricambi BV are some more good suppliers.
When it comes to overhauling your king-pins,get the best kit you can lay your hands on, the cheap kits are total crap! You might need the services of a sympathetic engineering w/shop to ream out the new bushes 'to suit'--a person who likes classic cars and cares. A long adjustable reamer is required to ensure that the 2 bushes are aligned correctly; a tool probably onlyfound in an "old-fashioned" workshop.

 

[Fiona500f]

Don’t know if this works any better for you but you can purchase a reconditioned steering box from Motobambino


500F/L SS0085 Steering box LHD - Reconditioned. A £150 + VAT surcharge will be added to this item which will refunded on receipt of your old serviceable unit. £195.95
(ex VAT) £ 235.14


£235.14 including VAT at 20% plus a refundable £180 inclusive of VAT when they receive your old steering box back. Obviously you would need to add two lots of postage and not sure whether you would need to add any local or excise taxes but it surely would be cheaper than the £640 you have been quoted.

 

[JumpJet]

Don’t know if this works any better for you but you can purchase a reconditioned steering box from Motobambino


500F/L SS0085 Steering box LHD - Reconditioned. A £150 + VAT surcharge will be added to this item which will refunded on receipt of your old serviceable unit. £195.95
(ex VAT) £ 235.14


£235.14 including VAT at 20% plus a refundable £180 inclusive of VAT when they receive your old steering box back. Obviously you would need to add two lots of postage and not sure whether you would need to add any local or excise taxes but it surely would be cheaper than the £640 you have been quoted.

Apologies... ya that was the price for had for all the components - tie/track rods, gaskets, knuckles, etc... Probably not the best way to list it. I think eating the core charge would be inevitable - at first glance, sending a small 5kg box back to the UK would cost ~210 USD. Ouch.

 

[Fiona500f]

Ouch indeed and I though Royal Mail was expensive.

 

[the hobbler]

That $210---is that a USPS charge or a 'courier' charge. I have found in a lot of cases, the courier charge is substantially less, especially on the bigger parcels.

 

[JumpJet]

No, that’s FedEx. USPS flat rate box is $99. My past experience has shown fedex is better for larger stuff, so I foolishly checked there first. Still no small tax, but at least it’s less than the core itself.

 

[phoenix1]

The main reason these boxes fail is by oil leaking. It is very hard to stop these leaking hence they run dry and wear. Try to use thicker oil or mix it with some grease.

 

[timmycm850]

I think I have a rhd 100f steering box in my stock that I regasketedand changed the seal and reset during lock down earlier this year. I can photograph it and check the amount of play it has in it(in degrees). I used a grease in it that will move during road use but not leak. I have subsequently done the same to both my 850 steering boxes and neither leaks..

Tim

 

[JumpJet]

I think I have a rhd 100f steering box in my stock that I regasketedand changed the seal and reset during lock down earlier this year. I can photograph it and check the amount of play it has in it(in degrees). I used a grease in it that will move during road use but not leak. I have subsequently done the same to both my 850 steering boxes and neither leaks..

Tim

That would be fantastic! I'm trying to get an idea of what the normal amount of play is. I've heard people say they have very tight steering and people who say there's some natural play in the box. I'm going to replace the kingpins and tie rods for sure, but if the box is within spec, I'll probably just remove it, give it a good cleaning, repack it with some oil/grease, and be on my way.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[JumpJet]

Any experience with these stub axles from Ricambio?

https://www.ricambio.co.uk/brand-new-stub-axles-steering-knuckles-nuts-classic-fiat-500

They are listed as 'new', but cheaper than the refurbed ones, so I have some questions... Even with postage, it's cheaper than ordering from the main US place.

Thanks!

 

[JumpJet]

Finally got some nice weather and all my parts, so I was able to put Martina back together and on the road again. While the alignment looks ok, I'll get a proper one done shortly. She is sitting a bit nose high, something I'm attributing to new bushings and proper preloads - I did not replace the shocks or springs, so there's no other reason she should ride higher up front that I can think of. Does that sound right? Makes me want do front and rear springs/shocks to complete the job. Vediamo.

One question I have about my old kingpins (last attachment). Take a look at the bottom of them and you'll see a nut and allen key bolt. I haven't seen any setup like that before. I'll eventually try to rebuild them to have a spare, but is anyone familiar with this arrangement?

Tomorrow - a brake flush to round out the current project.