General my £200 '95 Mk1 75sx 'Paddy Punto'

[kazer92]

yeah I wasn't able to pin-point the exact leak point but it seems to be in the 'seam' at the end of the matrix where it meets the plastic section. At first I thought it was near the top, but the whole rad drained overnight that day so there could be a couple of leaks.

i did do a fair bit of research before getting the RadWeld, logically something that plugs leaks will also plug passageways etc so I always planned to to a lot of flushing before fitting the new rad (e.g. drain current water, refill and add RadFlush, flush that, maybe another flush of water before filling with antifreeze).
I need the car for work most days so had to do something, temps have been good though since and the dial hasn't been much higher than a quarter (fan kicks in at over half, or should do if I knew it was working....)

 

[blu73]

that fair fella, if it was all leaking out overnight and thus once cold and to that degree yeah it prob not the cap.. and it a pinch i have used radweld stuff before (just not on my own car haha)

 

[puntofan01]

kazer92: any progress with rustproofing?

 

[kazer92]

Hope you're all well, apologies for the lack of posts, busy times and phone was on the fritz so no photos possible until this week. I have however replaced the radiator after many flushes and a lot of Engine-Bay-Tetris (there was a plastic guard of some sort bolted to the front of the existing rad which was a bugger to remove), and after 2 weeks all is good with no leaks and no overheating. Not bad for £25 (touch wood)
Idle on startup since has been a bit rough, but maybe due to the cold weather at the moment. Semi-related to that I'm penciling in a day soon to check the valve clearances and then swap/order shims to get them within spec, as the engine is very tappy (always has been) and think it'll be a rewarding activity if all goes to plan (and a good winter project due to needing a cold engine). I have heard about a special 'shim remover' tool for compressing the buckets to get them out, anyone any pointers? had planned on just levering them out with a flathead or similar.

Another long-term gripe on the to do list has been the Punto's car key. I only have the one set (1 for doors/ignition and 1 for petrol cap) and as you can see from the below photos the ignition key has been through the wars a bit, the previous owner must have re-drilled a whole for the keyring and all sorts.



I picked up a 'replica' Fiat key off a favourite Chinese website of mine for a few quid many years ago and never got round to getting it cut (also pictured).


I did go to a Timpsons (Tesco) at the time and they said they wouldn't cut it after asking if it came from the dealer (should have said yes!), so was planning to go to a local place and see what I can find out. I'm only really hoping for a spare key to get into the car, but if I can get the new one coded to start the car that would be a big bonus (the thread below gave me some hope:
https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/282317-key-cutting.html )

anyway, any pointers or help would be appreciated!

 

[renaultvation]

Some years ago I bought a Punto 60 for my son and it came only with the red key. I bought a couple of cheap blanks very much like the one in your picture and took them to Timpsons (proper shop in town, not a supermarket add-on) and they both cut and coded them. I don't know whether it made a difference having the red key.

 

[blu73]

you don't need the red key anymore, timspons should be able to cut and code a key so long as you have one that actually works in the car - the days of needing a red 'master' key to get new ones coded is well and truely in the past

 

[kazer92]

Rang up local key cutter and they quoted £16 just to cut my blank key, thought that was a bit steep for something that will just open the doors.

Tried a local Fiat dealer just out of curiosity, they put me through to their parts guy who was very helpful. Had a decent long chat with him over the phone about the whole thing (red key, coding etc) despite them not being able to help me, and he recommended a security place over in Gillingham that could cut and code a new key from my old one. Also advised if I was desperate I could get my blank one cut, and tape the old transponder near the key barrel to allow the new key to effectively start the car haha

Had heard not so great things about Timpsons over the years especially to do with car keys, but popped into my local Tesco's branch and they checked my key in their machine, confirmed they could cut and code a new one in 5 mins for £40 (I was expecting £80+) which seemed fairly reasonable. They don't touch anyone else's blank keys from which is fair enough from a business point of view.

I haven't contacted the security company yet to get a quote, once I do that I'll make a decision, but for the ease and locality of Timpsons I might just go with them.

 

[Didge3]

Had heard not so great things about Timpsons over the years especially to do with car keys, but popped into my local Tesco's branch and they checked my key in their machine, confirmed they could cut and code a new one in 5 mins for £40 (I was expecting £80+) which seemed fairly reasonable. They don't touch anyone else's blank keys from which is fair enough from a business point of view.

My car only has one key so wanted to get another cut, its a pre CODE system car so no transponder in the key anyway, I have a third party immobiliser. Once I eventually persuaded the guy at my local Timpsons that it does not
have an immobiliser in the key (he was really firm on the whole red key/blue key thing which my car pre-dates) he eventually said he would cut me a new blank key for £22! Seems ridiculous to me :bang:

 

[kazer92]

Another eventful (and very stressful) weekend with the Punto has passed.

Cracked on with checking the valve clearances Saturday, simple enough job after removing air intake, injector plugs, ignition leads and finally the rocker cover
(After checking old photos, that oil feed pipe has definitely gone out of shape, something to worry about?)


Couldn't find my spark plug socket as it had been tidied away with dads endless boxes of odds & ends, which made turning the engine a bit difficult (17mm spanner on the camshaft sprocket) but had to do the same thing last time round so no big deal. (have found it since)

Checked all the clearances with my feeler gauge set, jotted everything down and checked again to be sure (my set only has 0.15, 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, 0.5 and a few other smaller/bigger ones)


Then spent probably an hour trying to remove the first shim in order to measure its thickness. Without the special Fiat tool I was struggling, and after trying every flathead and pry-bar tool I could find, as well as making a custom tool out of an old spanner (as vaguely recommended in Haynes ) which didn't depress the buckets down far enough to remove a shim


I decided to just bite the bullet and unbolt the camshaft so I could just pop out each shim. This involved partially removing the ignition coil pack housing but in the long run was much quicker. I set the engine to TDC for cylinder 1 before doing this, but as you'll learn further on that was a bit pointless....

Anyway after removing each shim and recording the 'stamped' thickness as well as measuring with a set of calipers (sorry no photos) I popped in from the cold for a cuppa and some maths!


Worked out I could get some of the clearances within/closer to spec by swapping around a few shims (cylinder 4 was fine but a couple of other were quite a bit out). At this point I was happy and started to rearrange the shims, and things were going well.... a bit too well.....

I was out to watch Ireland in the rugby that evening so the next day I returned, quite hungover, to re-attach the timing belt and reassemble the engine. It was at this point I discovered to my horror that there were barely any teeth left on the belt! It was nearly a flat bit of ribbon!


Any plans for a nice relaxing Sunday evening went down the toilet, and I frantically started looking online for a replacement timing belt. No nearby Euro Car Parts had it in stock or were closed, but luckily a small local motor spares place happened to answer the phone and after some back and forth about engine type and number of teeth, he had the belt I needed in stock! :worship: (XL Motor Spares New Malden)

But that was the easy bit. I knew from doing this last time that changing the timing belt (on my car at least) is an absolute ball-ache. The first obstacle of which was getting the Punto up off the gravel driveway onto the concrete so I could jack it up. Luckily the (not so) redundant Fiesta was sitting behind it, so I roped in mum to gently reverse into the Punto and push it up the drive while I steered.
(to protect both cars lol)

With a bit more shoving I got the Punto on the hard-standing and got back to work, removing the alternator belt pulley from crankshaft pulley being my biggest struggle.



As you can see 1 of the bolts is especially rounded off (the other 2 partially) due to the fact that its very tough to get a 13mm spanner on the central nut, and a 13mm socket on the outside ones. I eventually got that last one off by hammering on a slightly smaller imperial socket, and have since 're-sized' it with a dremel to square off the edges.

Anyway, after loosening the alternator (also not fun) and removing that belt, I had access to the crank pulley and could finally remove the timing belt. Gave it a clean all around as there was a fair bit of oil and shredded belt everywhere (with the consistency of sheeps wool!) and put the new belt on. Lined up timing marks as best I could and tensioned the belt, was going to start it up without the alternator pulley or belt attached just to check, but thought against it.

With everything reinstalled, it fired back up and ran OK...... the actual valvetrain sounded a lot smoother with less 'tapping', but the idle was quite rough and there was a new noise coming from the timing belt side of the engine - kind of like a whirring/grinding noise. let it run for a bit and after looking and listening through a long screwdriver I couldn't find anything disastrously wrong.

After dinner that evening I decided to go back and set the belt tensioner slightly less tight, as I thought that might be why the previous belt was worn so badly after only a couple of thousand miles. I experimented with very tight/very loose (which produced the typical whining noise), and got it to a point I thought was best. The idle was still very rough at this stage so I played around with the timing after some googling, but haven't been able to get it to smooth out.

So anyway that's my story from the weekend. I had to get back to Maidstone from South London that night so nursed the Punto back ~50 miles, idle didn't smooth out, but noises didn't got worse either!

I'm thinking the new noise might be the alternator or its belt needing adjusting. Timing wise I'm going to get hold of a small mirror to check the markings through the bell housing, as I think I might just be a tooth or 2 out.

Any comments/help/guidance would be appreciated. The struggle continues!
(god I hate these dark winter evenings)

 

[blu73]

well few things jump to mind reading this... first off, always turn the engine from the crank not the cam in future.

You didn't do it in end but you can't try the engine without refitting the bottom pulley as thats where the pickup for the crank sensor is

That shredded belt is bizarre, never seen that on one of these engines - thinking maybe the wrong belt, amazing it would have worked at all if so but there is 2 different P75 belts. Quite strange, normally if it were too tight it would mess up bearings in waterpump or alternator before anything bad would happen to the belt. The only other thing i can think of is either the waterpump or alternator was a bit seized from the car car sitting and the belt was grinding over it and its since freed up?? Try spraying WD40 at the alternator while its running and see if the noise goes away, try loosening off the aux belt a touch and maybe even take belt off completely and check the alternator is spinning nice and smooth and free.

Rough idle is a hard on also without seeing/hearing it but I assume from what you said its running ok when actually driving? Possible the timing is out a tooth but first just try taking all the ht leads off and putting them back on to make sure they all have good contact with plugs and on the coils, check you not knocked off or missed a vac line and just for general leaks on intake side of the engine.

 

[kazer92]

Thanks for the tip, makes sense to turn it from the crank even thought its harder to reach haha.

Thinking about it the alternator pulley thing also makes sense, I've never thought too much about the crank sensor but have heard on other threads that the engine basically won't run if it's not working as it should.

I can confirm that the previous belt wasn't the 'wrong' one of the 2 possible belts for the 75sx, as I'd ordered the one 129 teeth in the past and my engine takes the belt with 108 teeth. It may however not have been the completely 'correct' belt if you catch my drift.
The water pump was replaced back when I last changed the belt, and spins freely on its own, and the battery has been OK which leads me to believe the alternator hasn't been seized at any point.

The rough idle is a weird one, as it hasn't really changed too much since I replaced the rad. For example when driving along in traffic normally, I'll stop at one set of lights and it will idle steady at just under 1000rpm, and then I'll stop at the next and it will be up and down in a very irregular fashion. Sitting with the engine running, it can switch between rough and steady idle every few minutes. I assume if the timing was off, it would sound like crap all off the time, with a constant/predictable 'roughness'? Could be any number of electrical things I guess, Lambda sensor, coolant temp sensor, intake air sensor etc? might have a go unplugging these one at a time and see what happens

Tried the WD40 this morning on the alternator with no luck, next step I'll disconnect the alternator pulley and give it a spin/retension as I think that could be the source of the noise.

In the mean time ECP were having a Black Friday sale and I ordered a new alternator belt (current one looking a bit shoddy) along with new spark plugs, oil filter and enough oil to do an oil change at some point (not done many miles but over 2 years since last change)

Other niggles I forgot the mention:
- anti-roll bar still only held on with 1 out of 2 bolts front left since one of them sheared in the hole last year (job for a local garage me thinks)
- rear right (and possibly left) suspension making some serious knocking noises, potentially a bushing gone or the rubber thing that the spring sits on.
- potentially related to rough idle, but have had serious 'stutter' while cruising, only with minimal throttle. no throttle is fine and anything above maybe 10% throttle also fine, so maybe throttle cable needs tightening?

anyway will update with any more progress, again thanks very much to you all for the input and continued support!

 

[blu73]

sounds very much like a vacuum leak.

so check all the vac lines, best to take them off completely and inspect for cracks, splits and/or blockages. Consider just buying some new silicone vacuum line as its not expensive and just replace it all.

Brake servo vacuum is another place it could leak a bit so check that one too.

Also the TB is sealing properly between the 2 halves and round the bottom with the inlet mani. I would just try tweaking the bolts down a touch tighter before actually removing it and replacing gaskets etc.

But you are looking for a leak anywhere after the butterfly in the TB basically - that will cause hunting at idle. Slight possibility its the actual idle control valve itself but never had one die on me on a fire engine, they are only getting older though so don't rule it out if you can't find any leaks anywhere.

 

[kazer92]

so some decent progress over the last week

shredded belt - i've now come to realise that this was probably caused by the timing belt cover. I didn't have it installed after the HG job until a few weeks ago when i reattached it, but wasn't completely convinced I'd done it right, and also didn't have the lower bolt to attach it to the block. There was no noise at the time when I restarted the car, but it must have been just slightly grazing the belt somewhere. It was absolutely filthy when I took it off last week, after installing it clean not long before, so might check for signs of where it was contacting the belt. Leaving it off for now anyway to keep an eye on the new belt etc.

Whirring noise - had some time to kill on the way to a site meeting Friday morning so replaced the alternator belt in a service stop car park . Alternator span very smoothly on it's own and the noise didn't go away after reinstalling everything, but glad I did it as the old belt was definitely on it's way out

Managed to get my phone down under the battery tray to get a good view of the 'proper' timing marks through the gearbox bell housing (not just my rough tipex mark) and set to 0 degrees. Tensioner pulley also span smoothly on its own, so retensioned everything and no change in rough idle, but at least I know the timing is OK.
Having done that I tested a few sensors while the car was running, and the rough idle went away when the throttle position sensor was unplugged. This lead me to believe the problem was throttle related, but had to head off to Bristol for the weekend. Stressful journey with the Punto spluttering/'spasming' every second or so while trying to cruise on the motorway. Near the end of the journey it also revved to redline on it's own a couple of times when sitting at traffic lights. Not fun. :bang:

However I did a bit more googling over the weekend on throttle stuff, and when I went to leave Bristol Sunday evening it redlined in the driveway again so I had to do something. After remembering I'd fiddled with it months ago, I grabbed a little allen key and backed off the base-throttle-position grub screw all the way to make sure it was down. I didn't see the the assembly actually move (just the screw turning) but it must have done something, as the engine went back to a nice steady idle when I fired it up again.

so all calm on the rough idle front for now! :slayer:

photos to follow

 

[digger58]

I'd sideline the rough idle till the belt issue is resolved. How did the cover catch the inside of the belt?

 

[kazer92]

Timing end, cover left off since I replaced the belt, still looking OK


Old alternator belt off


new belt on


timing marks on/in the bell housing, after a good scrub with brake cleaner I found the degree labels


Punto on a frosty morning


I've still to look at the timing belt cover, will get some photos of it in the next few days and hopefully pinpoint the cause

Going to lightly pressure wash all the crud/oil away from the bottom of the engine next time I'm home, which will make it easier to spot any potential rubbing/shredding belt, as well as oil leaking from the rocker cover gasket that I know if happening(didn't have any gasket sealant last time to do the bead trick)

Still tentative at the moment but all running well for now

 

[blu73]

grab some decent degreaser and spray it liberally around, let it sit a few mins and then jetwash it off... I like Gunk, always had good results with it.

 

[kazer92]

Long time no post, the usual Christmas rush meant not much happened recently, not really the time of year to be doing work but got a bit done at the weekend.

Borrowed a jack and some stands off a friend to have a look under the rear end at the subframes and trailing arms etc after some investigation on the forums. From what I can tell, the rear subframe front bushes have been repaired/replaced previously, and the rear bushes are pretty much shot (can tug out the rubber with ease) which is probably the source of the rear end knocking.


and other side (not as bad)

front rear subframe bush in the background looking fairly good



Going to order one of those repair kits off eBay and do the right rear bush, have a good idea of what to do but unsure of the specifics as the photos were broken/gone on the guide thread I found. Also not entirely sure the quantity as some eBay pages contradict each other - 2 rubbers per bush or 2 rubbers per side etc. Anyone any idea?


case in point:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291802357535?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270789509984?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

also the rear coil spring rubber mounts/feet/bushes are fairly buggered, will probably replace at some point soon


also finally sorted the exhaust mounts so the correct hangers are in the right place!
rear hanger from this

to this


middle section from this mess of perished rubber and 6 zip ties (sorry for crap photo)

to this

 

[kazer92]

then the next day I moved back to the front

had everything I needed for an oil change and the car jacked up ready to go, only to discover I didn't have the oil sump drain plug hex socket and must be in my dad's toolbox at home :bang:

Anyway cracked on with the aftermath of the shredded belt and oil leak issue. I've got oil lightly spraying on the air intake hose and radiator in line with the timing/alternator belt and pulleys, and what seems like shredded black sheep's wool various bits





but still no sign of current timing belt deteriorating but will keep an eye on it.
Cleaned up the engine bay with some hot soapy water, rinse and some compressed air, so now I've got a (fairly) clean slate to be able to spot further leaks/shreds etc.
also refitted the rocker cover gasket with some blue sealent in the corners where it meets the camshaft, and didn't tighten too much. hopefully eliminate that possibilty.
If not the rocker cover, I'm Pretty sure I've got oil leaking out of both ends of the camshaft, through the oil seal on the left and the coil pack O-ring on the right. Going to replace both anyway as they're fairly cheap, will need to consult Haynes for the timing belt side.
Good thread on it here:
https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/311353-coil-pack-o-ring.html

Also while I had the injectors unplgged I renewed the sparkplugs (NGK R's?) and cleaned the inside of the ignition leads with cotton buds. I also backed off the idle throttle position screw again, well out of the way so I know it's not making any contact, and refitted the throttle cable. I poured some Redex into the opening and tightened it until the Redex started escaping down into the intake manifold, then backed it off and secured the other nut.
Following these jobs I seem to have cured my dodgy idle issue for good, but we'll have to wait and see!

any tips, guidance, comments or questions let me know!
cheers

 

[kazer92]

Another update, moved quickly on the oil leak issue once i'd learnt what the usual culprits are and figured out where to source parts.

Ordered a coil pack O-ring to help stop any leaking on the right hand side of the engine (there is a little bit) after trawling a few forum threads, from eBay here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321825461715?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&var=510755847945&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Then after some more extensive forum trawling and Haynes reading I ordered a camshaft oil seal to stop the oil leaking on the left hand side of the engine, clicked and collected from Euro Car parts for around £5.

Had some snow last night so no-one was expected into work early today , so took my chance to replace the coil pack O-ring, and after that was fairly easy I decided to do the camshaft oil seal as well (bit more tricky)

Old O-ring on coil pack housing and evidence of leaking oil:



New O-ring was slightly thicker and fit much more snugly, giving me some confidence that this is now sealed. Added some blue sealent on the cylinder face where it meets the coil pack just to be safe.

Had to take the recently re-sealed rocker cover to get the camshaft sprocket off to access the oil seal. Then had an old tshirt on the head and used the lever for my trolley jack to secure the sprocket while undoing the bolt, worked fairly well.


After a few minutes trying to pry out the oil seal, having no luck and worrying I would end up damaging the head, i decided just to loosen the camshaft securing bolts which allowed the oil seal to be nudged out easily. Old one looked fairly old so was confident a new seal would fix my leak on this side


Also tapped the oil squiter pipe(?) back into a straight line with a few taps of a hammer, not sure how this happened but oh well!


At this point it had started snowing again and I was getting snow falling inside the cylinder head! so reassembled everything pronto, reattached timing belt and fired it up. All sounded ok apart from a bit uneven idle as I had disconnected the battery, but evened out eventually.

The grinding/whirring noise is still present however, and after changing back to the old timing belt tensioner bearing I can confirm that is not the source, so I'm now thinking it could be the alternator? Very difficult to listen to where it's coming from.

Anyhow we're slowly getting there, any hints would be appreciated!
cheers

 

[kazer92]

.... personally I think your tyres are a bit tall for a Mk1, and the extra width has given you heavy steering! If you've just bought 2 new ones for the rear I guess you're stuck with them now...

Started thinking about this again recently and now really wanting to get some nicer wheels. while my current ones are nice, the tyres are very tall like you said and I'd like to get some that look a bit sportier, especially after seeing the wheels that come stock on the 100hp Panda:



The PCD is the same at 4x98, and happened across these in the classifieds after trawling eBay etc for a set with no luck (also in black which I was tempted to do myself anyway):
https://www.fiatforum.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=34661&cat=17

they're 195/50/R15 which is slightly wider than the current wheels (175/65/R14) but overall smaller diameter after using tyre size checker. Haven't looked up the offset yet but would anyone see a problem with me running these?
Obviously the steering would be heavy and they are winter tyres, which are good for current time of year but I'd probably look to swap out for some all-seasons with slightly narrower tires for a bit of stretch and lighter steering.

Any thoughts would be appreciated
Cheers