Technical Locating and Resolving a Leak

[DTanner]

I need some help with a leak on my Fiat Panda Dynamic Eco Petrol 1.2L 2009.

I noticed some oil staining on our driveway yesterday, which was not there before. It was appreciable enough that I was concerned and the stains appeared quite dark, so I was suspecting engine oil. However, the driveway is narrow and the stains were clearly to the sides (both sides, though we park the car forward and reverse so a one-sided leak would be visible on both sides of the driveway). Unfortunately, it rained heavily overnight so I cannot see the stains anymore.

Today I lifted the front of the car and had a look. The two main areas to note were:

ENGINE OIL - SUMP:

• There was a film of oil over the lower part of the sump – with a drip hanging at the bottom. However, this was not obviously flowing from higher up (like the sump seal), the oil was only on the lower part of the sump, higher up was clear and the back of the sump was in surprisingly good condition. My thoughts were that oil was possibly oozing through the rust at the front of the sump but it seemed unlikely after cleaning it up.
• I looked a bit higher and saw a drop hanging on the oil filter, I was able to tighten the filter more by hand so did so (it may just have been a bit loose). The sump seemed ok and was in surprisingly good condition. I think tightening the filter may help.
• I suspect that drops from the filter were hitting the sump when the car was in motion and was building up on it. I don’t think the Sump caused my staining as it was only dripping from the middle (so not the area the driveway was stained).

VIDEO:
video_of_sump

GEARBOX OIL – FROM SOMEWHERE:

• I had a look around and there was a reasonable amount of an oilish substance coming from the side of the engine – at the gearbox (under the battery). I have a poor sense of smell but my wife thought it smelled like ash and different to engine oil (I presented her with a sample of each). The area where the drive shaft fits to the gearbox has a lot of oil around it. I thought maybe the seal for the driveshaft had gone, but there was a lot of congealed / crud / clumped oil coming from the clutch selector area (this was the highest I could see oil originating from).
• I took the battery tray out for a better look and the top of the breather (with the loose round piece) was obviously wet and seemed like a starting point (nothing oily above it but it was thickly spread out around and below it).

VIDEO:
Video of Driveshaft/Gearbox
PICTURES:
[following a quick clean - but still obvious]

Can you have a look at the pictures and videos (sorry about the quality) and see what you think – is the gearbox the key area and does it seem like the selector is a culprit?

If it is the selector then I found this approach that has some nice detail, is this what I need: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/gear-oil-leak-from-selector-shaft.439305/

Anything else I should check or other advice? Thanks!

 

[koalar]

Are you sure it's not the differential seal, seems the wettest area and will be flung quite a way

The oil also appears quite high up

Can't really draw any useful conclusions from the images, would need to be cleaned up and see where it first appears

Can't view your video you have to be a member

 

[DTanner]

@koalar I agree. There was a lot of oil at the driveshaft/gearbox interface. This did look like a source. I rechecked the reference I provided (https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/gear-oil-leak-from-selector-shaft.439305/) and the oil patterns are quite different. For me the areas around the driveshaft/gearbox interface are all sprayed and this was not the case on the reference (where the selector was the issue).

I will clean and look out for new oil emerging to try and confirm before I do anything. I agree with you now that I have reviewed again. Is the cruddy oil around the selector normal - this lured me in? I will keep an eye on this too.

If it is the differential seal I think I know how to do it: Remove wheel and disconnect parts and driveshaft from hub, swing wheel hub out of the way. Drain oil and carefully pry driveshaft out and then the retained seal. Clean, replace with new seal, smear with oil and put driveshaft back in (rotating and tapping). Top up oil. Is it something like this - anything I need to be particularly careful with? And would I just need the oil and a seal?

 

[DTanner]

Sorry about the videos. Here is a still from the driveshaft (I include them as I had wiped down the driveshaft leak in the picture you had see above). There is a lot of oil sprayed around. The oil from the selector was not wet (just dried crud) apart from a small area at the selector breather. The driveshaft was all wet / slick with oil.

 

[koalar]

@koalar I agree. There was a lot of oil at the driveshaft/gearbox interface. This did look like a source. I rechecked the reference I provided (https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/gear-oil-leak-from-selector-shaft.439305/) and the oil patterns are quite different. For me the areas around the driveshaft/gearbox interface are all sprayed and this was not the case on the reference (where the selector was the issue).

I will clean and look out for new oil emerging to try and confirm before I do anything. I agree with you now that I have reviewed again. Is the cruddy oil around the selector normal - this lured me in? I will keep an eye on this too.

If it is the differential seal I think I know how to do it: Remove wheel and disconnect parts and driveshaft from hub, swing wheel hub out of the way. Drain oil and carefully pry driveshaft out and then the retained seal. Clean, replace with new seal, smear with oil and put driveshaft back in (rotating and tapping). Top up oil. Is it something like this - anything I need to be particularly careful with? And would I just need the oil and a seal?

Assuming this is the leak

There's several ways to do it

I'd drain the oil

And just undo the pinch bolt and seperate the arm from the knuckle

There's enough movement in the strut to pull the
drive shaft out, without undoing anything else

Helps if you take the wheel off as the weight is a slight hindrance

I always mean to buy one of these.

But can be levered out with a crowbar, they are normally pretty tight


Make sure you order the correct seal, offside and nearside are different

 

[A3jeroen]

If you drive a car with the oilfilter not seating/sealing completly the oil gets everywhere. Start with cleaning it all up and check if it stays dry.

gr J

 

[DaveMcT]

Check back of gearbox, because the shifter shaft oil seal can throw out a lot of oil which drains down shows up around the drive shaft seals.

The repair needs a new shifter seal and a new roll pin. Make 100% sure to align the roll pin holes as its not hard to fit the pin 180 degs out of position. Also photograph the shifter springs and nylon pads so they are replaced correctly.

Rusty sump will be dry when engine stopped, but gets messy when engine is running. Drips run off after a run.

 

[mafiltenborg]

I've been there recently.
First off, I suspected the seals in gearbox, so changed the oil and upon refilling with API GL-5, I put in some seal reconditioner to see if this would make a difference.
Then, someone pointed me to the area over/behind the engine, under the airbox. In this area there's a breather hose of sorts that attaches to the airbox. It's a plain rubber tube approx 40cm long - and it was cracked completely open, spewing out oily air. I replaced it.

Now, the sump no longer has that drip of oil hanging off of it.

Airbox is held in place with two bolts. it's easy to check that hose for cracks.

 

[Sylvester22]

Easiest way to determine the location of the leak/s, is to clean those parts, there's a lot of grime and dirt.

 

[DTanner]

Ok so I had a good look at the car today. The leak was sudden and the drive has a good amount of oil on it for something that has just happened (the driveway dried up so the oil staining is visible below).

The top of the selector box (around the breather) was cruddy with congealed oil but the selector rod and areas around it had a lot of wet oil on it.

There were two possibilities I was checking:

• Driveshaft Seal Leak – causing the joint to spray onto the surrounding area and the selector
• Selector Rod Seal Leak – the selector rod seal is leaking and running onto the driveshaft and spraying everywhere

From the oil patterns I found I am going to plan to replace the selector rod seal. The images below show the leaked oil around the selector rod.

As suggested, I have cleaned all of the areas with oil but honestly, they are pretty inaccessible and I think it may be hard for me to detect the origin of the leak - but I will keep an eye on it. This is the cleaned selector rod from a very hard to access location! I have similarly cleaned up the top of the selector box and sump areas.

So, what next? Well, I have realised that transmission oil is a lot more expensive than a replacement seal and I think I can access the selector box quite quickly now. So, I will order and replace the selector rod seal (and order RTV to resale the top and possibly a 4mm roll pin).

There are some good guides on this here:

Guide: Renewing a gear shifter seal

My Grande Punto 2008 1,2 gear box looked like this: I thought that drive shaft seal was leaking but I was advised it probably was a gear shift seal leak. It actually was the case: I ordered a new seal from eBay (30 €). Replacing an old seal...

www.fiatforum.com

Oil leak on Gear Selector Shaft | FIAT 500 (2007+)

Has any one had a minor oil leak from the gear selector shaft on 1.4 sport 6 speed gear box is the shaft seal available and relatory easy to remove and replace thanks

www.fiatforum.com

 

[DTanner]

If you drive a car with the oilfilter not seating/sealing completly the oil gets everywhere. Start with cleaning it all up and check if it stays dry.

gr J

@A3jeronen I have done this now and will monitor.

Check back of gearbox, because the shifter shaft oil seal can throw out a lot of oil which drains down shows up around the drive shaft seals.

The repair needs a new shifter seal and a new roll pin. Make 100% sure to align the roll pin holes as its not hard to fit the pin 180 degs out of position. Also photograph the shifter springs and nylon pads so they are replaced correctly.

Rusty sump will be dry when engine stopped, but gets messy when engine is running. Drips run off after a run.

Thanks @DaveMcT I found your guide here: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/oil-leak-on-gear-selector-shaft.501058/
This is really helpful so I will keep this in mind. Thanks.

I've been there recently.
First off, I suspected the seals in gearbox, so changed the oil and upon refilling with API GL-5, I put in some seal reconditioner to see if this would make a difference.
Then, someone pointed me to the area over/behind the engine, under the airbox. In this area there's a breather hose of sorts that attaches to the airbox. It's a plain rubber tube approx 40cm long - and it was cracked completely open, spewing out oily air. I replaced it.

Now, the sump no longer has that drip of oil hanging off of it.

Airbox is held in place with two bolts. it's easy to check that hose for cracks.

@mafiltenborg I think you are referring to the crankcase breather pipe. I took mine out a while back and it was in great condition so put it back in. They often perish so agree that it is a good check as it is easy to access. They look like this:

Easiest way to determine the location of the leak/s, is to clean those parts, there's a lot of grime and dirt.

Agreed and I will do that but the leak is not in a great location - it is definitely either the driveshaft or selector rod seal and they are close to each other. I have seen enough to be happy to change the selector rod seal. Also 2L of oil costs me around £20 and the seal is £5 so I think I should just swap it (I suspect there is a lot more than £5 on the driveway right now).

Assuming this is the leak

There's several ways to do it

@koalar thanks for the advice. I will go with the selector rod seal change but if needed I feel reasonably comfortable to change the driveshaft seal. Thanks.

 

[koalar]

Certainly looks more convincing it's the selector leaking from this photo


But it still inconclusive as some of the oil is against gravity and is either blown or thrown there


Yes gear oil is expensive, GSF often has some on offer online, but every time I try and order some it's always out of stock

 

[Yolanda]

Is there a breather on the top of the gearbox, I'm not sure. If there is make sure it's not blocked. Your photo's to me depict more of a misting rather than a leak.

 

[koalar]

Wrap some kitchen roll loosely around the shaft

Tie some string round it

Wet on the inside, faulty selector seal

Wet on the outside, leak elsewhere

 

[DTanner]

Ok all, thanks for the advice.

Honestly, I found it difficult to tell exactly where the leak originated from (either driveshaft seal or selector shaft seal) and I felt like I might have lost enough transmission oil that it may not recur as easily. I tried cleaning things and looking for signs of new leaks but it is an awkward place in the engine bay for me to access. Also I wanted to top up the transmission oil and it is expensive so I just wanted to get on with a repair even if I was not 100%.
However, I will say that dismantling the parts back to reveal the selector housing and removing it did appear to strongly suggest the selector shaft seal, so I replaced it.

This post is just to say that this thread is closed now, but I will endeavour to take two final steps:
1) I will try and update the thread in the future to clarify if I have seen any reoccurrence of my leak or whether I consider the replacement seal to have resolved my issues
2) [COMPLETE] I will provide an update as I learned a lot on this process that may be useful to people with my level of automotive experience (limited to DIY hobbyist). However, I will provide these updates in a different thread that provided instructions that I followed, so as to keep useful information together. The thread will be this one: Gear oil leak from selector shaft

Thanks for all the help.

EDIT: As per action 2 I have added my learnings to: Gear oil leak from selector shaft

 

[DaveMcT]

Use brake cleaner to clean the back of the gearbox. You will soon know if the leak is from the shifter seal. Excessive oil (or diesel) can be an MOT fail. It depends how fussy the tester is.