Technical Induction and cold air feed

[durukan]

It's loosened up a bit since that run, it would be interesting to see what it runs now. I should take it to a rolling road, see what it comes up with now.

you should definitely do that. how many miles on it?

 

[multispoke]

Standard torque on the rollers was 85, but then this work was done on a relatively fresh engine. Within the first 500 miles I think. After map it rollered at 92. so a bit of an increase over what she had, but more importantly, it's a noticeably better delivery of it.

It's loosened up a bit since that run, it would be interesting to see what it runs now. I should take it to a rolling road, see what it comes up with now.

Only thing I've really noticed that was bad was the MOT. The emissions was, er, well, not standard. Which is a situation you'd find yourself in with the supersprint as well.

When my exhaust back box is finally done my plan is supersprint and a sports cat after it on removable flanges for trackdays. Yes, that's it, only to be removed for track days.

To give you an idea of the conditions she's handling, I do an 80 mile a day commute, I drive her like I stole her and I have a quaife atb diff fitted which affects your economy by about 3mpg. I'm averaging 33.6mpg.

Many thanks for the response Jason (I not too sure how jnoiles sounds now !). RobW and yourself really have a lot in common where you've put your 'hand in your pocket'. With sports cat - I would have thought that with their efficiency rating that having them off would make very little difference. I've 'taken on aboard' your concerns on the emissions but our NCT (your MOT) is not as strict as yours. I would be tempted to put on the supersprint manifold and leave the CAT light on and see if it goes through a NCT (I didn't say that ). You have a lot of 'gear' on the car with the GSR, etc. If you were to spend your money on a GSR & a re-map OR a full performance exhaust system - what would you spend your money on - or should I ask in a couple of months when you've done it ? With the mpg you're getting I don't feel to bad with the 28.8mpg that I've averaged over the last couple of days. My budget is around €500 and I would be looking for a least 15 bhp and hopefully keeping it legal - I'm not concerned about the warranty - I owe the car outright and there's only a year left on the warranty and the car has done 4k miles in total !

 

[jnoiles]

If I could do it again? I'd do stuff in this order:

- decent pads (ferodo or ebc reds)
- decent vented/dimpled discs
- flush the brake fluid through with castrol srf (I can't stress this enough, it's awesome)
- quaife diff
- lowered springs (could go coilovers but I prefer it to be hard and can live with the bouncy effect)
- supersprint and exhaust
- remap

I've done all the above except the supersprint and exhaust, mostly because my exhaust is factory and mild steel and hasn't rotted off yet (and I've been pouring money into the race car).

All of the above would give some more oomph, sharpen the handling, improve the traction, ensure you can stop repeatedly & predictably stop and make some lovely noises while doing it. You trade off a bit in comfort and it's a bit bouncy on sharp bumps but a set of springs is £100, coilovers are rather more. And I'm lazy. I'd make the coilovers stiff and then forget about them.

Engine is at about 65,000 miles now. Loosening up nicely

If you're toying with a more supportive seat, the omp subframe is the simplest solution around to get a race or race-ish seat in place. Designed for the 500, it bolts right in with the standard bolts. I sometimes bolt a corbeau carbon/kevlar one in for track days.

 

[multispoke]

If I could do it again? I'd do stuff in this order:

- decent pads (ferodo or ebc reds)
- decent vented/dimpled discs
- flush the brake fluid through with castrol srf (I can't stress this enough, it's awesome)
- quaife diff
- lowered springs (could go coilovers but I prefer it to be hard and can live with the bouncy effect)
- supersprint and exhaust
- remap

I've done all the above except the supersprint and exhaust, mostly because my exhaust is factory and mild steel and hasn't rotted off yet (and I've been pouring money into the race car).

All of the above would give some more oomph, sharpen the handling, improve the traction, ensure you can stop repeatedly & predictably stop and make some lovely noises while doing it. You trade off a bit in comfort and it's a bit bouncy on sharp bumps but a set of springs is £100, coilovers are rather more. And I'm lazy. I'd make the coilovers stiff and then forget about them.

Engine is at about 65,000 miles now. Loosening up nicely

If you're toying with a more supportive seat, the omp subframe is the simplest solution around to get a race or race-ish seat in place. Designed for the 500, it bolts right in with the standard bolts. I sometimes bolt a corbeau carbon/kevlar one in for track days.

How about the filter or should I say the breathing ? Would to take the GSR off ? or does it mess the exhaust setup have too many variables ?
I did think about the Eibach springs but the Pro versions which is supposedly 'softer'. Konis also tickled me a little as well - but ££££.
Pads & the fluid, etc seems a no brainer.
The supersprint would bloooow the budget completely - would a Janspeed cut it - priced competitively or just the supersprint manifold and take a chance ?
It's great too see that your 1.4 is wearing the miles well.
Can you explain the quaife .. is it similiar to the TTC ? in the A500. And would I really need it. I generally turn off the ASC although I know it comes back on if you are being a little stupid.
On the re-map would this have to be done in situ - I take it that posting one off wouldn't cut it.

Many thanks for your patience. I most I've done to date on a 500 is to change the spark plugs and putting on a CAI.

 

[jnoiles]

How about the filter or should I say the breathing ? Would to take the GSR off ?

Oooh, completely forgot that. Yes, I'd do that again in a heartbeat. For the noise alone.

I did think about the Eibach springs but the Pro versions which is supposedly 'softer'. Konis also tickled me a little as well - but ££££.

That's what stopped me. That and I know I'd pick the hard setting and leave it there. Initially I figured I'd do the springs and see how it went then move to coilovers. But it hasn't been pressing. The springs have done it for me. Coilovers would make it a better ride mind you. I had a passenger run in RobW's with the Spax and it was lovely.

The supersprint would bloooow the budget completely - would a Janspeed cut it - priced competitively or just the supersprint manifold and take a chance ?

I've not looked at the Janspeed one. I've harboured fantasies of making my own one. Really it's a laser cut plate, some bent and cut tube and some welding. Then stick the face on a milling machine and get it flat. Tempting thought.

It's great too see that your 1.4 is wearing the miles well.

In all honesty it's the most reliable car I've ever owned. I wasn't expecting that when I bought her but she's been lovely.

Can you explain the quaife .. is it similiar to the TTC ? in the A500. And would I really need it. I generally turn off the ASC although I know it comes back on if you are being a little stupid.

The actual diff on my coffee table:

Should I find myself rich one day I'll buy one to sit on my desk so I can play with it. The quality of machining is outstanding. The teeth mesh with a delightful clicking.

The simulated diff thing in the Abarth 500's brakes the wheel that starts to spin up which is supposedly very effective but I've not tried it in anger to see how good it is. At it's core though, this doesn't really have the same effect on traction as a proper mechanical torque biasing diff. It transfers the torque to the wheel that has the most traction. A good explanation is here: http://www.the-mia.com/Quaife-s-ATB-differential-is-essential-kit-for-winter-driving and Quaife's own blurb is here: http://www.quaife.co.uk/differentials I can't speak highly enough about it. It costs you a few mpg but the front end is light years ahead of the standard setup. In winter it was truly astonishing where I could go when other cars and 4wd's slipped off the road. On track days its bonkers how quickly you can get power down out of corners. Single best thing I've added to her. The front end feels planted, feelsome and mechanical in a way it previously didn't.

On the re-map would this have to be done in situ - I take it that posting one off wouldn't cut it.

I had mine done on a rolling road day. The guy was able to do the base runs, check its graph, then pull the ECU, map it, stick it back in and see how it ran. It's an interesting process to watch if you get the chance.

Many thanks for your patience. I most I've done to date on a 500 is to change the spark plugs and putting on a CAI.

No worries. When I bought the 500, I hadn't driven a car in about 6 years. They're lovely little cars and once you start fiddling the urge to tweak more can consume you. I still turn around and smile at mine after a drive. I smile when I see her in the drive in the morning. I fully understand your enthusiasm

 

[multispoke]

Thank you so much Jason.

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/268372-spark-plugs-100hp.html
I made a little contribution to the Panda forum on spark plugs - it might be of interest to 500 1.4 owners but it pales in comparison to your depth of knowledge - there's no replacement for putting your money where your mouth is. I was looking to get an extra 1bhp !
The dedication to your passion on the 500 it truly evident when you put your prized possession on the coffee table - beauty is really in the eye of the beholder - it does look like a masterpiece (this might be another opportunity for GUI ). On my 2nd test drive in an Abarth (it started to rain) the front wheels are starting to knock and I had to harness the power to control wheel spin - I didn't realised that you had to engage TTC (I thought it would have been on by default). The Quaife sounds a bit like a LSD a mechanical slip differential as opposed to an electronic one. Sometimes the 'old' ways are best.
It's good to see that the money spent on the GSR wasn't wasted and that you enjoy the induction noise. I take it that you don't drive in any puddles ! Well I don't either .
I had a look at your gallery and your 500 is really a Q car - no sign of red painted calipers and just simply black with no go faster strips.
I have attached a picture of a 'clock' from a well driven 1.4 that was used a test car and a daily commute which shows that the 1.4 can give good mpg, still perform and can take the mileage ( I wish to acknowledge Nigel)

 

[multispoke]

oddly an ITG panel filter is the only one i have seen to produce gains, the main issue with panels is that manufactuers reduce the area by the plastic supporting the foam, ITG tend to use wire thus keeping the area reduction down, however, i am a panel filter sceptic, their CAI will do what it says on the tin as i know the dyno they use and how they compare runs

https://www.fiatforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2749299

I have pulled wigit's response (I hope you don't mind wigit) from the above thread into this induction thread. On the ITG Panel filter that was ordered the wrong one come in the 'post' - it was for the FIRE 1.2 engine. So I have taken this as a message 'from above' to go for the real mccoy and get a proper CAI. It will either be the ITG CAI or the GSR. I have checked other threads for where to source a GSR but have always ended up in a 'cul-de-sac'. Conscious of the puddles on the road and prepared to avoid them . Getting mixed reports on if the ITG available at the moment is designed specifically for the 1.4 or if it is the BMC CDA setup with the 'standard' ITG Filter housing. Doing the maths on £ for bhp does not work out on a 1.4 but I would like a little extra and the CAI might do it for the moment. A CAI is easy to reverse unlike a manifold change. Once I go the proper mod route I will be 'married' to the 500. Email request put in for the ITG. Appreciate a PM or whatever from someone on the GSR. If someone has a RR graph on the ITG that would be brillant.

 

[babbo_umbro]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I haven't seen anything that shows the increased power/torque that's gained by a change of air filter; though I understand the power curves showing a re-mapped engine with changed filter, it's not clear how much of the gain comes from the re-map, which offers relatively little on a normally-aspirated engine. (Turbo engines are another matter - I used to have an Uno turbo ie that the late great Barry Waterhouse had tweaked and the results were sensational - partly because of the very substantial increase in poke and partly because the Uno's metering and electronics just coped with the greatly increased boost/airflow without any modification.) By the way, if a change of air filter was going to make any significant difference some sort of mixture re-programming would be advisable, or perhaps even necessary.

This topic has been pretty well done to death on the Panda section and any benefits seem to be marginal at best, largely confined to making more noise and 'seeming' to produce an unquantified performance gain. Have to say I remain unconvinced.

 

[RogerWilco]

...I remain unconvinced.

Quite agree.
And what about the damage to the value of the car by this type upgrade?
I for one, would not touch a car that had been modded, so you probably end up with a car worth less, having written off the price of the 'upgrade' as well. More money than sense.

As has been said previously, if you want to improve performance, swap to an Abarth

 

[multispoke]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I haven't seen anything that shows the increased power/torque that's gained by a change of air filter; though I understand the power curves showing a re-mapped engine with changed filter, it's not clear how much of the gain comes from the re-map, which offers relatively little on a normally-aspirated engine. (Turbo engines are another matter - I used to have an Uno turbo ie that the late great Barry Waterhouse had tweaked and the results were sensational - partly because of the very substantial increase in poke and partly because the Uno's metering and electronics just coped with the greatly increased boost/airflow without any modification.) By the way, if a change of air filter was going to make any significant difference some sort of mixture re-programming would be advisable, or perhaps even necessary.

This topic has been pretty well done to death on the Panda section and any benefits seem to be marginal at best, largely confined to making more noise and 'seeming' to produce an unquantified performance gain. Have to say I remain unconvinced.

Thank your for the frank feedback babbo_umbro. I reckon you are correct in saying that to get any benefit of bhp - a re-map would be needed if a CAI were fitted. On the pipercross set-up that I had - it drove much better - it was definitely more torquey - I thought that was proven on some RR graphs. A decent filter like the ITG one would perform better than a paper particularly when the paper starts getting dirty. I'm just looking for a few extra horses (hence the CAI) and if I don't get it at least I can enjoy the bit of induction noise . Most people who have fitted a CAI leave it on - so that most say something.
I wholeheartly agree with you that remapping a turbo charged has substantial benefits. It takes discipline to resist increasing the boost further which can be expensive .
On the 1.4 I was advised to opt for just a foam filter and a re-map but the feedback that I have received on the remap is that it would be a waste on a NA engine unless I was going the fully monty with a proper exhaust +
The turbo route is the most cost effective way to go...

 

[multispoke]

Quite agree.
And what about the damage to the value of the car by this type upgrade?
I for one, would not touch a car that had been modded, so you probably end up with a car worth less, having written off the price of the 'upgrade' as well. More money than sense.

As has been said previously, if you want to improve performance, swap to an Abarth

There's no damage.
On the last 1.4 sport that I had - it made the sale. They knew from the condition of the car and the service history that I was no 'boy racer' (although I still am !). It was advertised with the standard setup - I had taken the CAI off. I mentioned that I had one on it but it came off for the service. When they came back for the 2nd drive it was on and it sealed the deal. The cost of the CAI was £115 not much in the overall scheme of things. And it's easily reversed.
For those who have stuck with the 1.4 NA there is a different type of pleasure in extracting the power up the rev range than relying on the urge low down when the turbo kicks in. You cann't rev the nuts of a turbo engine but you can with a N/A if you pardon my French .

 

[RobW]

Quite agree.
And what about the damage to the value of the car by this type upgrade?
I for one, would not touch a car that had been modded, so you probably end up with a car worth less, having written off the price of the 'upgrade' as well. More money than sense.
As has been said previously, if you want to improve performance, swap to an Abarth

not always the case, i sold my modded 1.4 500 for a good price last year

 

[multispoke]

This topic has been pretty well done to death on the Panda section and any benefits seem to be marginal at best, ...QUOTE]

Sorry to re-visit this response again - there was something nagging me .
I did do a lot of 'looking' before creating a thread for induction kits and stuggled to find decent information for the 1.4 which is essentially the same as the 100hp Panda. A lot of the material covered in the Panda section was on 'home grown' kits and the 1.2 and I did provide links to these on earlier replies. There was very little on the 1.4. The recommended upgrade for the 1.2 is a panel filter as opposed to a CAI.
http://www.torquecars.com/tuning/induction-kits.php
http://www.torquecars.com/fiat/500-tuning.php
That said the ITG CAI on the 1.2 was surprisedly successful and the one on the Abarth does work (but it makes a lot of fuss for what it gives). It is only very recently that CAIs for 1.4 specifically have been advertised and that has been brought about demand.
The success that I had with a Mazda MX5 on a jackson cold air induction kit transformed the car (it was only a 1.6) but this may have been down to the crappie breathing that was in the car in the first place. Also the power increase from this CAI (in comparison to what was there) was only noticeable on the motorway when you put your foot down. I doubt if a RR will truely be able to 'catch' the benefits of a CAI.
It is acknowledged that benefits are visible higher up in the rev band but depending on the kit could impact lower down.

 

[multispoke]

I came across a document for another car (not a Fiat) that I thought was very interesting. It seems that there are other boys out there are also flogging CAI systems to death (besides me of course ) and the Panda forum. I didn’t embed the document into this (its 8meg) – if you access it save it because you will not be able to look at it again for another hour !

http://hotfile.com/dl/97028833/025a563/Induction_v1.0.pdf.html

A foam filter in the airbox like the ITG should make a difference.
If you’re changing the manifold a heat resistant gasket is worthwhile fitting – not to sure if one exists for the 500.
Mapping a 500 seems ‘cheap’ compared with the costs of doing a Honda Type R
Port ‘n Polish seems to be a good way of getting a few brake. Popular in the US but not so in the UK. Although getting someone that has the experience will be difficult (TrackDayQueen discussed this).
Supercharging – expensive – and probably impossible to get insurance on it. I was not considering this
Turbocharging – in the same boat but cheaper power per £. Ditto
Some of their CAI systems seem to give good bhp but then they’re running over 200bhp+

http://type-r-owners.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?75250-New-beginners-Air-Intake-Guide!