Technical Ignition timing - spark advance of 1.1 FIRE

[Wasgehabendas]

Hello guys,

Do you know where I can find the correct ignition timing or spark advance (by Multiecuscan) for 1.1 FIRE engine, Panda 2006.

At idle it is 17-20 degrees when starting from cold. Once it warms up it is constantly 10 degrees.

After changing the timing belt 10k miles ago my low end torque is much worse. Also engine is shaking once it warms up. Maybe it is one tooth out?

 

[koalar]

short answer I don't know. You would have to have exactly the same engine, at the same temperature, at the same atmospheric, with the same cam and ECU software.

However it sounds about right and behaving as I would expect.

 

[koalar]

has it always run bad after the belt change ?

was it running 100% before

 

[Wasgehabendas]

has it always run bad after the belt change ?

was it running 100% before

It had other issues before the belt change, not related to it.

At first, belt was giving a strange noise. Later it disappeared. But sluggish response from throttle remained.

 

[Goudrons]

Also engine is shaking once it warms up.

This seems to point to a misfire.

If it's misfiring the knock sensor will detect it and adjust the ignition (and fueling) to a "safe" setting to try and protect the engine.

So it's hard to tell if it's misfiring because the ignition (or fueling) is out or it's ignition (and fueling) is out because of a misfire.
Is there a timing (or fueling) problem or are they just symptoms of another problem?

There is a very common problem that causes misfires in the 1.1 FIRE.
There is a wiring issue in the loom from the ECU.
It seems to affect either or both the signals to coils and/or injectors.
For some reason the problem doesn't seem to bother the 1.2. The 1.1's must have a different loom.

There are some good posts if you search the forum for 1.1 misfire and a member identified the wire in a video. It's worth checking this first as it's so common.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA4zU6q6XR8

 

[DaveMcT]

1.1 has the engine ECU bolted to the engine. 1.2 has it bolted to the battery case.

Spark timing is controlled by the ECU from the crank position sensor count. That's either working to not working and when it fails dos not raise a fault code. Your's runs so I'd put that well down the list.

Check the ECU connector is not loose. Some say the wires in the loom can get cracked others say to simply strap the connector tight with zip ties. Do the latter and see what happens.

Faulty coils might not show on the ECU. Check them for resistance. There will be instructions on www for doing it.

 

[koalar]

I suspect that when its warm one of the cylinders isnt firing


this can lead to long term damage if a P30? hasn't been logged along with an engine light


while hot and shaking. Stop the engine. Remove one HT lead from the coil in turn. Restart the car. If any don't make any difference, that cylinder isnt firing.


Another indicator would be to post a photo of the spark plugs. Keep them in the order they came out.


Do you have a scan tool ???

 

[Wasgehabendas]

This seems to point to a misfire.

If it's misfiring the knock sensor will detect it and adjust the ignition (and fueling) to a "safe" setting to try and protect the engine.

So it's hard to tell if it's misfiring because the ignition (or fueling) is out or it's ignition (and fueling) is out because of a misfire.
Is there a timing (or fueling) problem or are they just symptoms of another problem?

There is a very common problem that causes misfires in the 1.1 FIRE.
There is a wiring issue in the loom from the ECU.
It seems to affect either or both the signals to coils and/or injectors.
For some reason the problem doesn't seem to bother the 1.2. The 1.1's must have a different loom.

There are some good posts if you search the forum for 1.1 misfire and a member identified the wire in a video. It's worth checking this first as it's so common.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA4zU6q6XR8

How to safely check the wiring loom in order not to disturb the ECU later?

1.1 has the engine ECU bolted to the engine. 1.2 has it bolted to the battery case.

Spark timing is controlled by the ECU from the crank position sensor count. That's either working to not working and when it fails dos not raise a fault code. Your's runs so I'd put that well down the list.

Check the ECU connector is not loose. Some say the wires in the loom can get cracked others say to simply strap the connector tight with zip ties. Do the latter and see what happens.

Faulty coils might not show on the ECU. Check them for resistance. There will be instructions on www for doing it.

I've seen many posts where folks get the check engine light because of bad coils. Why it wouldn't show up sometimes while other times it does?

I suspect that when its warm one of the cylinders isnt firing


this can lead to long term damage if a P30? hasn't been logged along with an engine light


while hot and shaking. Stop the engine. Remove one HT lead from the coil in turn. Restart the car. If any don't make any difference, that cylinder isnt firing.


Another indicator would be to post a photo of the spark plugs. Keep them in the order they came out.


Do you have a scan tool ???

Engine light never showed up until now. Yes, I use MES - 4.61 registered version, please look at the results below.

 

[Wasgehabendas]

I observed knock sensor values during many conditions. I have charts but I think that would make more confusion than being useful. Here are the results.

Average of 54 cycles from MES over 3000 rpm, warm engine:

Cylinder 1: 1.38
Cylinder 2: 1.43
Cylinder 3: 1.58
Cylinder 4: 1.29

Average of 49 cycles from MES between 1000 and 2500 rpm, warm engine:

Cylinder 1: 0.75
Cylinder 2: 0.95
Cylinder 3: 0.99
Cylinder 4: 0.65

Average of 33 cycles from MES, idling from cold to warm engine:

Cylinder 1: 0.47
Cylinder 2: 0.57
Cylinder 3: 0.66
Cylinder 4: 0.50


Average of 140 cycles from MES, started from cold, idled for 3 minutes then I've been driving for 25 minutes with maximum of 4200 rpm - 4th gear around 65 miles per hour. Engine was warm when I did that.

Cylinder 1: 0.9242714286
Cylinder 2: 1.042993571
Cylinder 3: 1.139930714
Cylinder 4: 0.8643192857


As you can see under many conditions Cylinder 2 and 3 show higher values than Cylinder 1 and Cylinder 4. Not sure how these results are accurate from MES. Hopefully they are.

These are only averages and there are many fluctuations between values on each cycle from MES.

 

[koalar]

coil pack work in pairs

matches the results


looks like one of the coil packs is giving a weak spark

would fit with worse when hot as they often break down when they get hot. But not always

swap them over and see if the results swap over. If they do one coil is on its way out

 

[Wasgehabendas]

coil pack work in pairs

matches the results


looks like one of the coil packs is giving a weak spark

would fit with worse when hot as they often break down when they get hot. But not always

swap them over and see if the results swap over. If they do one coil is on its way out

Yes, it looks like coil is the culprit. But is it possible for a car to work with bad coil for 10k or 15k miles as in my case? Wouldn't the bad coil stop working after so many miles?

 

[koalar]

Yes, it looks like coil is the culprit. But is it possible for a car to work with bad coil for 10k or 15k miles as in my case? Wouldn't the bad coil stop working after so many miles?

just swap swap the leads and cables over. Then rescan. you will have an answer yes or no. With no cost to find out.

 

[Wasgehabendas]

just swap swap the leads and cables over. Then rescan. you will have an answer yes or no. With no cost to find out.

thanks a lot! I will do that!

 

[Goudrons]

Yes, it looks like coil is the culprit. But is it possible for a car to work with bad coil for 10k or 15k miles as in my case? Wouldn't the bad coil stop working after so many miles?

Or whatever is signaling it.
Check the wiring loom.

 

[DaveMcT]

The most simple test is with an IR thermometer. Start engine and measure exhaust stub temperatures. Any that are cold are not firing properly. Heat soak means it's not so good on a hot engine, but it correctly diagnosed a stick coil on 100HP and a weak coil on 1.2.

If one coil is suspect the other wont be far behind so replace the pair and be done with it.

By the way, a spark misfire always causes an O2 sensor controlled engine engine to run rich. The unused oxygen is seen by the ECU as the engine running weak so it turns up the fuel-air ratio. Sooty plugs aggravate the problem, causing even more fuel enrichment.

 

[Wasgehabendas]

On a cold start, is it normal to have a petrol smell under the bonnet? It is there for around 2 or 3 minutes and later it disappears.

 

[Wasgehabendas]

The most simple test is with an IR thermometer. Start engine and measure exhaust stub temperatures. Any that are cold are not firing properly. Heat soak means it's not so good on a hot engine, but it correctly diagnosed a stick coil on 100HP and a weak coil on 1.2.

If one coil is suspect the other wont be far behind so replace the pair and be done with it.

By the way, a spark misfire always causes an O2 sensor controlled engine engine to run rich. The unused oxygen is seen by the ECU as the engine running weak so it turns up the fuel-air ratio. Sooty plugs aggravate the problem, causing even more fuel enrichment.

By exhaust stub do you mean this part? Or something else?

 

[chris3234]

By exhaust stub do you mean this part? Or something else?

He means the exhaust manifold and each section where each exhaust ports on the head connects to the manifold

 

[Wasgehabendas]

He means the exhaust manifold and each section where each exhaust ports on the head connects to the manifold

Thanks for clarifying my question, I understand now what it is.

 

[koalar]

On a cold start, is it normal to have a petrol smell under the bonnet? It is there for around 2 or 3 minutes and later it disappears.

no


small pipe under the air cleaner is the normal culprits


the next common cause is a damaged exhaust