General Guess what i've gone and done now?! :D - stage 2 begins

[J333EVO]

Cheers Aaron, that could be interesting if i knew any of the gear ratios I know some people seem to have the info for some of the boxes, but I can't find any for this one. Maybe I'll try the Panda section, and ask around in there.

At the moment I have a standard cento box designed for 13" and it seems ok, can't remember what its doing at 80 but its under 4000rpm.

Guess most of it is just trial and error, and i will know for sure once its fitted

The price of te box wasn't to bad, £175 delivered, thats off the same engine I got so pretty much new.

I'm sure I'll have a few questions about this when i come to do it I know the linkages on top of the box have to be changed, and the clutch mechanism as its hydrolic, but I'm unsure about the cabin side of things!


Cheers,

Kristian

No worries Kristian,

Gearbox is fairly easy, unbolt the 3 may 4 bolts on top of gearbox where gear and clutch cables go and swap with Cento box, then your standard cable operation works and you can select all six gears in correct position. If you try and mod the selector to accept cable like we did as first the gears are all back to front.

Aaron.

 

[J.R Racing]

I would love tt know what gearbox I am running on my 16v,
Sorry a bit off topic I know but while your discussing gearboxes.

The gearbox I run was a replacement I was told for a fire engine (brand new for quite little £££) so just got garage to fit it.

Its only a 5 speed, but the ratios seemed beautifully matched to the current engine setup. When it was 1108 powered they were a little long really in 4th and 5th.

At 100mph in 5th I am around 4250rpm. On a friends private farm land I have seen 130mph (indicated) at a little under 6500rpm (and was still pulling had I not run out of room). Although this is not really a useful fast acceleration gear at motorway speeds 4th fills the gap for me

3rd gear at limiter is good for about 88mph and 4th good for around 110mph if I remember correctly.

However the lower ratios are tighter so not to lose the standard quick get away in 1st-3rd and suit the 16v high revving nature.

1st takes me to around 32mph and 2nd is good for about 55 at limiter.

Any guesses?? lol I though originally it was a sei mpi 'sx' box but am now swaying it towards being something like the mk 1 punto 85 or 75 gearbox.

 

[randomizered]

good stuff Aaron, seems simple enough Thought that was pretty much it, but was curious if i had to cut the reverse inhibitor down or not.... can't even remember where 6th gear is on this box anyway lol, I know its different between the Punto Grande and Panda. Will have a check tomorrow


JR, those rpm seem about the same as my standard box tbh. I was pulling those speeds on hols, and they seem roughly the same as far as I remember. However we are talking 500 rpm difference on most different gearings, and tbh, that can be put down to angle of view and driver position.


Itching to get the box now lol....sadly time is still restricted, so even though i have tomo off..no playing all weekend


I had a chat with Richard from Wolf Direct Racing today and sadly they don't do 1368cc cams

It looks like if this is a route I'm going to take its either GSR or C&B, without any backup data though, I'm reluctant to try either out for a punt, as neither are cheap.

Still....I have decided the head is coming off and after trials on another head, i'm going to at least port and polish it....not taking much out of it, I can't measure or predict flow patterns, but a basic port and polish is going to do nothing but improve bhp as long as I don't screw it up lol .... then maybe see how much re-cut seats and valves cost


Cheers,

Kristian

 

[LanciaMad]

GSR recon the 1368 16v should not be tuned beyond 120bhp before looking at the internals.

It looks easy to get 120 from a decent induction kit and remap.

Is it really worth doing anything else?

 

[J.R Racing]

JR, those rpm seem about the same as my standard box tbh. I was pulling those speeds on hols, and they seem roughly the same as far as I remember.

Well on my original box from the factory, limiter was 93mph in 4th, same as my friends cinq sporting box and g/f's sei mpi sporting.

Now my limiter in 4th is 110-115mph, if you do have this box it must be a replacement. 20mph gain at limiter is more than just a different viewing angle.

bottom end acceleration is a lot smoother as well, maybe your car has had a replacement as some point.

the standard box also hits limiter at about 125mph indicated at 7200rpm, new one still pulling past 130.

 

[randomizered]

GSR recon the 1368 16v should not be tuned beyond 120bhp before looking at the internals.

It looks easy to get 120 from a decent induction kit and remap.

Is it really worth doing anything else?

I already have a CDA and will be running Megasquirt, but this won't get you too 120. Looks at Emma's....CDA and Emerlad ecu professionally mapped, and its 108bhp.

My map prob won't be as good as that one for a long time, until I perfect it, but 120 is still not going to happen I think.

However, with the porting and polish, and the exhaust etc, I should get some more power.


Bolts for the gearbox casing on order new, 6 bolts, and <£2 each so not too bad.

Also ordered an offside engine mount as this one has done 66K and prob not going to last much longer. Its the hardest to change once its all in, do doing it now. Thats about £40 though



Kristian

 

[J333EVO]

As said by Kristian, we got 108bhp 100lb ft from 1368 with custom induction with CDA and inlet behind and above the fog lamp, so only gets cold air, a bigger 45mm K series throttle body, port matched inlet manifold, Supersprint exhaust manifold, custom 2" exhaust system, and Emerald ECU professionally mapped which has more adjustability than a stock ECU. Must be noted you could get full power on less than full throttle so throttle maybe slightly oversized.

Must be said though the engine never really felt that loose at first, felt tight and a little unwilling to let all its power free, maybe on account of it only having done 8200miles, but now that its been in for 3,000miles it feels looser now, and much quicker than before, in fact quick enough now to keep the turbo honest which we found when trying to keep up with Emma's dad driving it on way to Stanford Hall when we were behind in the turbo.

This represents an increase of some 14bhp on standard, or in other words 15% which I believe is a figure that is honest and reflective of what has been done. Lets not forget that is exactly 100% in crease on a standard Cinq. Maybe now that's it has noticeably loosened up it may yet yield some more power, but can't say for sure unless we put it back on rolling road.

As for gear ratios here are some

1108cc
1st 3.909
2nd 2.050
3rd 1.344
4th 0.977
5th 0.837
Rev 3.727
FD 3.562

1108cc
1st 3.909
2nd 2.158
3rd 1.345
4th 0.974
5th 0.766
Rev 3.818
FD 3.562

1108cc Sporting
1st 3.909
2nd 2.158
3rd 1.345
4th 0.974
5th 0.766
Rev 3.818
FD 3.867

1108cc Sporting Abarth
1st 3.909
2nd 2.158
3rd 1.345
4th 0.974
5th 0.766
Rev 3.818
FD 4.071

Punto MK1
1st 3.909
2nd 2.157
3rd 1.480
4th 1.121
5th 0.902
Rev 3.818
FD 3.866

Punto Mk1 6 speed
1st 3.545
2nd 2.157
3rd 1.480
4th 1.121
5th 0.902
6th 0.744
Rev 3.818
FD 4.923

Panda 100HP (got details from a mix of sites)
1st 3.545
2nd 2.158
3rd 1.480
4th 1.210
5th 0.921
6th 0.766
FD 4.07

The lower the final drive ratio will give more mph/rpm.

 

[J333EVO]

OK using the info from the Panda box and using a 185/50 14 tyre as we do here is the speeds achieved at rpm in each gear. i used the calculator here which for instance if changing to a 195/45 14 tyre top speed theoretically decreases to 130mph http://www.f-body.org/gears/

I have shortened it but you get every 100rpm on the page

Rpm 1 2 3 4 5 6gear

500 2 4 5 6 8 10mph

1000 4 7 11 13 17 20

1500 7 11 16 19 25 30

2000 9 14 21 26 34 41

2500 11 18 26 32 42 51

3000 13 22 32 39 51 61

3500 15 25 37 45 59 71

4000 18 29 42 51 68 81

4500 20 32 47 58 76 91

5000 22 36 53 64 84 102

5500 24 40 58 71 93 112

6000 26 43 63 77 101 122
6100 27 44 64 78 103 124
6200 27 45 65 80 105 126
6300 28 45 66 81 106 128
6400 28 46 67 82 108 130
6500 29 47 68 84 110 132

 

[J333EVO]

Same again but using a sporting box and 195/45 14 rubber because this is what we have on the turbo

500 2 4 6 8 10

1000 4 7 12 17 21

1500 6 11 18 25 31

2000 8 15 24 33 42

2500 10 19 30 41 52

3000 12 22 36 50 63

3500 14 26 42 58 73

4000 16 30 48 66 84

4500 19 34 54 74 94

5000 21 37 60 83 105

5500 23 41 66 91 115

6000 25 45 72 99 126
6100 25 45 73 101 128
6200 26 46 74 102 130
6300 26 47 75 104 132
6400 26 48 77 106 134
6500 27 48 78 107 136
6600 27 49 79 109 139
6700 28 50 80 111 141
6800 28 51 81 112 143
6900 28 51 82 114 145
7000 29 52 84 116 147

 

[randomizered]

Cheers for that info Aaron, very interesting

With regards to the inlet...it doesn't look much larger at all, has longer ducts though for more low down torque, and seems a more elegant solution.

The fuel rail is already one way (tank regulated)

The TB just unbolts, and there are 4 mounting bolts, so looks like there are several cable operated throttle bodies that will just bolt on.

That means I can't port the head to the intake, but the different and smoother walls, may make a bit more power.

It adds complexity with reqards to the coolant plumbing, as the outlet will now come from the thermostat, but thats easily solved.

Ideas and opinions?


Kristian

 

[J333EVO]

With regards to inlet, as you know we had the full engine and all ancillaries, and on measurement the plastic 1368 manifold is about 20mm longer which is differance between it clearing or being buried in the bulkhead thing that stops the heater taking in fumes from engine bay, hence why we bought the 1242 16V alloy one.

Even doing that we still had to modify the pipes that go to the heater matrix as they were hitting the inlet manifold, so had to remove the bulk head thing and unclip the pipes from matrix and then shorten them and reroute them slightly and cut a channel in bulk head so that they cleared the inlet manifold. though I would imagine that you must have had similar issues on the 1242 16V and maybe didn't feel the need to address them?

As for other cooling, don't remember there being any issues whatsoever.

Aaron.

 

[randomizered]

Yep, I had issues with the pipe, and sorted most. I missed one though and after about 6K it split lol. They are all fine now though

I did drive around for a few thou without that panel at the rear, and never noticed any fumes or smells. The cold air was warmer though as that is drawn from the bottom of the panel and didn't do this without it.

I will try the newer intake, and if no good, I'll pop the 1242 on. I have two of them anyway

Just lost an auction for a 48mm rover alloy throttle body, but i'm sure more will come up. That looks like a direct fir the the 1.4 inlet

Kristian

 

[davethetrike]

Tsk Tsk, what am I going to do to top this

Punto Mk1 55 with the 13" wheels has the highest gearing

Body version codes 176BQ53F , 176BQ55F, 176BQ53p, 176BQ55p
have final drive.
60 55
3.866 3.563

They also have taller third fourth and fifth- only the above body codes from the 55!

60 55
3.909 3.909
2.157 2.157
1.480 1.345
1.121 0.974
0.902 0.808

 

[randomizered]

I now have a rover throttle body on its way.

Its a 48mm Alloy body one, which has a full opening butterfly. Along with that the guy is chucking in the idle valve so I'm pretty please with that.

It's 2mm bigger than the one on, so not silly oversized, and I'm hoping it bolts straight on. The mounting holes are the same, and dimensions I got are within .5cm, so fingers crossed

@Aaron, did you know there are a whole bunch of throttle bodies that the butterfly only opens 50% wide? You mentioned you seem to loose power at WOT, so wondering if it may be related? Probs not, but thought it worthwhile mentioning. I think its only the 1.4 engines that have the reduced butterfly movment.

Will post more pics up when it arrives



On another note, I had the order from FIAT for the gearbox to engine bolts



3 look nice and beefy and will prob fit. The other 3 are ??? god knows lol

Also the offside engine mount ordered was not an engine mount at all!! Need to find ePer somewhere and have a look myself


Cheers,

Kristian

 

[J333EVO]

Our throttle body fully opens, it was a from a development K series engine that Jon had worked on, so its a fully plastic one with plastic fancy shaped butterfly, that is thicker at the end furthest away when air enters, if you cut through it for cross section its would be arrow shaped ie > something to do with air speeds, vortices and stuff.

We don't lost power at WOT, what I said was we can achieve full power before WOT, there is no more to be gained when it is fully open indicating that the throttle is oversized as it flows enough for the engines capacity.

Good progress though.

Aaron.

I forgot to add that with your wheels being 6" wide you are going to have real issues with the wheel hitting the gearbox if you fit the 6 speed. After fitting it and even fitting lock reducers we still get some rubbing which come MOT will have to be addressed as that is a failure. It was due to this that we decided to stick to 5.5" wide wheels ET 36 with the standard Abarth 10mm spacers so ET corrected 26mm, as the extra width of teh 6" wheel could increase the issue.

 

[4RL]

Sorry to be OT but Aaron, thanks for adding that info about the gear ratios and that link. Really useful.

 

[Chas Uno]

On another note, I had the order from FIAT for the gearbox to engine bolts

View attachment 33756

3 look nice and beefy and will prob fit. The other 3 are ??? god knows lol

The other three look like the bolts that hold the cover plate to the bottom of the gearbox

 

[rallycinq]

The other three look like the bolts that hold the cover plate to the bottom of the gearbox

Yup, I'd go with that too, the ones that hold the plate that hides the bottom of the flywheel.

Cheers

D

 

[J333EVO]

Thought I would add this in seeing as the ratios were provided.

Again using the 195/45 14 tyre size as my default this time using the gear ratios for the Punto 55 gearbox with 13 that I listed you get this set of outcomes.

RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
500 2 4 6 9 11

1000 4 8 13 18 22

1500 7 12 19 27 32

2000 9 16 26 36 43

2500 11 20 32 45 54

3000 13 24 39 54 65

3500 16 28 45 63 76

4000 18 32 52 72 86

4500 20 36 58 81 97

5000 22 40 65 90 108

5500 25 44 71 99 119

6000 27 49 78 108 130
6100 27 49 79 109 132
6200 28 50 80 111 134
6300 28 51 82 113 136
6400 29 52 83 115 138
6500 29 53 84 116 140
6600 29 53 86 118 143
6700 30 54 87 120 145
6800 30 55 88 122 147
6900 31 56 90 124 149
7000 31 57 91 125 151

And just in case anyone wants to know what happens in the last 500rpm to 7K on the siz speed box as I didn't do it before

6600 29 48 69 85 111 134
6700 29 48 70 86 113 136
6800 30 49 71 87 115 138
6900 30 50 73 89 117 140
7000 31 50 74 90 118 142

 

[randomizered]

Having a leaking radiator, a few other problems, unemployed, no money, but lots of time while i try and get work, it seemed like the perfect time to make a start

I had a buyer for the engine, GoBe (who has some great plans for it :worship, and we spent the afternoon removing the box and engine.

Here's his blood all over the floor



Here's the empty engine bay.....hmm, I've seen this no more than 10 months ago, hope this doesn't turn into a habit



The new engine at the bottom of the car, to go in soon



The old box that i'll be buthering for parts for the 6 speed....no, those wheels aren't going on. A bit too wide sadly



The biggest issue is that I have MOT in Feburary :devil: So it'll have to be declared on the V5, running, tuned, and safe :slayer:

I'll be running the stock 100hp air intake with a rover throttle body, and it will needa fair bit of plumbing doing, hopefullly not too dificult though

Enjoy

Kristian


//edit.....oopppssss, looks like my lens was a bit greasy lol