Technical Glow plug control box 1994 Hymer Ducato 2.5

[tdrpete]

Hi I think my glow plug box is faulty it has the bitron video 2044029 does anybody have any info on an updated part number as I am having difficulty finding the correct replacement part any info greatly appreciated. The van starts but is Smokey on start up and for the first kilometre

 

[bugsymike]

Hi I think my glow plug box is faulty it has the bitron video 2044029 does anybody have any info on an updated part number as I am having difficulty finding the correct replacement part any info greatly appreciated. The van starts but is Smokey on start up and for the first kilometre

I don't have specific data on the glow plug relay, but depending on the colour of smoke it may give more of a guide.
The early 2.5 indirect injection engine and to a certain degree the later 2.8s etc. are a fairly heavily built commercial engine that takes a while to warm up so that the pistons expand and the engine runs more efficiently.
I have owned several in the past and one thing I always did was make sure the thermostat was working correctly so that the temperature reaches the middle of the gauge promptly where the engine will work both efficiently and less noisy also.
This side of smoke issue would be "blue" as in oil burning to a degree.
If "white" smoke smelling of diesel from incomplete combustion from cold, whether from a heater plug or relay issue or a worn engine with lower compression I would expect to clear much quicker after pulling away than any "blue" smoke as in oil burning, certainly less than a kilometre.
Have the individual heater plugs been tested if applicable, depending on the type of cold start system yours has?

 

[tdrpete]

I don't have specific data on the glow plug relay, but depending on the colour of smoke it may give more of a guide.
The early 2.5 indirect injection engine and to a certain degree the later 2.8s etc. are a fairly heavily built commercial engine that takes a while to warm up so that the pistons expand and the engine runs more efficiently.
I have owned several in the past and one thing I always did was make sure the thermostat was working correctly so that the temperature reaches the middle of the gauge promptly where the engine will work both efficiently and less noisy also.
This side of smoke issue would be "blue" as in oil burning to a degree.
If "white" smoke smelling of diesel from incomplete combustion from cold, whether from a heater plug or relay issue or a worn engine with lower compression I would expect to clear much quicker after pulling away than any "blue" smoke as in oil burning, certainly less than a kilometre.
Have the individual heater plugs been tested if applicable, depending on the type of cold start system yours has?

Many thanks for your reply the engine is on the button in fairness and I have just changed all the filters and the engine oil. It runs good if a little underpowered but again it is 31 years old. You hit the nail on the head in regards the thermostat as my temp gauge barely registers so I will be fitting a new thermostat today when it arrives in the autofactors and hopefully that cures the temp gauge issue. The previous owner also removed one of the radiator fans as he was of the opinion that the engine ran cool always and didn’t need two fans. I wouldn’t be happy with this once I replace the thermostat today I will be in a better place to judge myself and will work on repairing the gauge issue. The reason I thought the relay may be defective is the glow plug light barely stays on and is a little Smokey only on start up.

 

[tdrpete]

Also I am fairly new to diesels having been a motorbike mechanic in previous years so I am just trying to work through the small issues methodically.

 

[bugsymike]

I used to run them with 15/40 grade commercial diesel engine oil.
I agree with you about having both fans working correctly.
Obviously with your mechanical experience you will ensure no air locks and top up antifreeze etc. Also if possible to check the rad cap is holding pressure, as when engine thermostat working it will be more relevant as well as any extra pressure on hoses.
I am assuming it is the older indirect injection 2.5 (non turbo?) probably around 80hp , so not a race horse, but with four separate heater plugs controlled by that relay.
I would test the individual heater plugs with terminals disconnected, you can use an Ohm meter as a guide, but personally I prefer testing with a Amp meter in circuit (roughly 8amps drain).
The later 2.8 Direct injection engine even in turbo form had higher compression which helps with starting also.
I put one of those in a boat and even in mid Winter with ice around the gunnels it always started as soon as you clicked the key without the later type cold start on that engine even needing to be connected.

 

[tdrpete]

I used to run them with 15/40 grade commercial diesel engine oil.
I agree with you about having both fans working correctly.
Obviously with your mechanical experience you will ensure no air locks and top up antifreeze etc. Also if possible to check the rad cap is holding pressure, as when engine thermostat working it will be more relevant as well as any extra pressure on hoses.
I am assuming it is the older indirect injection 2.5 (non turbo?) probably around 80hp , so not a race horse, but with four separate heater plugs controlled by that relay.
I would test the individual heater plugs with terminals disconnected, you can use an Ohm meter as a guide, but personally I prefer testing with a Amp meter in circuit (roughly 8amps drain).
The later 2.8 Direct injection engine even in turbo form had higher compression which helps with starting also.
I put one of those in a boat and even in mid Winter with ice around the gunnels it always started as soon as you clicked the key without the later type cold start on that engine even needing to be connected.

 

[tdrpete]

Hiya Mike cheers for the reply im unsure if the auld girl is turbo or no turbo the previous owner stated it was a 2.8 turbo and it stated 2.8 on registration certificate but I have been informed it’s a 2.5 I have yet to climb underneath and check the manifold for a turbo it is an 8140.27 according to the vin plate I just purchased the bus and am trying to find exactly which model it is as looking for info can be tricky if you don’t have the correct model I will check and bleed the system today when it arrives get the new thermostat thanks for your help and knowledge

 

[Communicator]

Hiya Mike cheers for the reply im unsure if the auld girl is turbo or no turbo the previous owner stated it was a 2.8 turbo and it stated 2.8 on registration certificate but I have been informed it’s a 2.5 I have yet to climb underneath and check the manifold for a turbo it is an 8140.27 according to the vin plate I just purchased the bus and am trying to find exactly which model it is as looking for info can be tricky if you don’t have the correct model I will check and bleed the system today when it arrives get the new thermostat thanks for your help and knowledge

An 8140.27 is a 2.5 litre turbo, but without intercooler.

 

[tdrpete]

An 8140.27 is a 2.5 litre turbo, but without intercooler.

Hi Mike that’s exactly it it also had the flame start as opposed to glow plugs as I just discovered also just removed the thermostat seems to be working ok but I will replace regardless for peace of mind then it’s onto the temp gauge issue next

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Mike that’s exactly it it also had the flame start as opposed to glow plugs as I just discovered also just removed the thermostat seems to be working ok but I will replace regardless for peace of mind then it’s onto the temp gauge issue next

As @Communicator mentions, it sounds like the original fitting according to the Vin plate is the 2.5 turbo but not intercooled, however from what you say from previous owner and the fact you say it has the flame start device then more than likely previous owner fitted the later 2.8 engine.
Strange it is under powered though, even without the intercooler which will improve it slightly, I found the 2.8 had plenty of grunt in my Iveco Daily vans and pick ups rated at 3.5 tonnes and more than capable of that, whilst towing a 3.5 tonne trailer loaded also.
Re the thermostat, what I tend to do is check both the new and the old one in a saucepan with a thermometer to see if actually opening and closing correctly. If the old one is opening slightly early or is partially open all the time then as you will know the engine cannot work efficiently.
Another point, if engine is not giving full power that may be another reason it is not reaching correct operating temperature.
I note the oil return hose from the turbo doesn't look shall we say quite "factory" installed. I trust it is suitable rubber for oil at high temp and not just old heater water hose?
It may also be an idea to see if the turbo actually spools up and delivers correct boost, assuming the turbo is in fair order and the actuator is not seized or diaphragm faulty (both common faults) although if no black smoke under load up hills with full throttle , then I I assume the turbo is working.
If engine is in sound order, then fitting a suitable intercooler is a good idea.
The engine I fitted in my boat came from a 1997 2.8 idt Ducato Maxi van rated at 122Hp in standard form which I chose as one of the last pre ECU engines (I didn't want electrical issues 6 or 7 miles out at sea) I had rebuilt that engine and marinised it with water cooled heat exchanger and intercooler etc. so I was quite happy to adjust the Bosch injector pump and the turbo to increase performance to approaching the 150Hp V6 Volvo Penta petrol engine I replaced in the boat. I will say I always allowed engine to reach correct operating temperature before giving it full power and ran it reliable for 4 years Summer and Winter before selling on.

 

[Communicator]

As @Communicator mentions, it sounds like the original fitting according to the Vin plate is the 2.5 turbo but not intercooled, however from what you say from previous owner and the fact you say it has the flame start device then more than likely previous owner fitted the later 2.8 engine.
Strange it is under powered though, even without the intercooler which will improve it slightly, I found the 2.8 had plenty of grunt in my Iveco Daily vans and pick ups rated at 3.5 tonnes and more than capable of that, whilst towing a 3.5 tonne trailer loaded also.
Re the thermostat, what I tend to do is check both the new and the old one in a saucepan with a thermometer to see if actually opening and closing correctly. If the old one is opening slightly early or is partially open all the time then as you will know the engine cannot work efficiently.
Another point, if engine is not giving full power that may be another reason it is not reaching correct operating temperature.
I note the oil return hose from the turbo doesn't look shall we say quite "factory" installed. I trust it is suitable rubber for oil at high temp and not just old heater water hose?
It may also be an idea to see if the turbo actually spools up and delivers correct boost, assuming the turbo is in fair order and the actuator is not seized or diaphragm faulty (both common faults) although if no black smoke under load up hills with full throttle , then I I assume the turbo is working.
If engine is in sound order, then fitting a suitable intercooler is a good idea.
The engine I fitted in my boat came from a 1997 2.8 idt Ducato Maxi van rated at 122Hp in standard form which I chose as one of the last pre ECU engines (I didn't want electrical issues 6 or 7 miles out at sea) I had rebuilt that engine and marinised it with water cooled heat exchanger and intercooler etc. so I was quite happy to adjust the Bosch injector pump and the turbo to increase performance to approaching the 150Hp V6 Volvo Penta petrol engine I replaced in the boat. I will say I always allowed engine to reach correct operating temperature before giving it full power and ran it reliable for 4 years Summer and Winter before selling on.

If the engine has been changed by a previous owner to a 2.8, then an 8140.23 is the most probable candodate. This has the same maximum power, and slightly higher torque than the original 8140.27. The 8140.23 is also a non intercooled turbo diesel.

Broken wastgate linkages are not unknown on these engines. In my experience, fitting an intercooler can noticeably improve the driving experience.. However with the turbo at the rear of the engine, some innovative pipework would be required.

 

[tdrpete]

Hiya Mike cheers for the reply im unsure if the auld girl is turbo or no turbo the previous owner stated it was a 2.8 turbo and it stated 2.8 on registration certificate but I have been informed it’s a 2.5 I have yet to climb underneath and check the manifold for a turbo it is an 8140.27 according to the vin plate I just purchased the bus and am trying to find exactly which model it is as looking for info can be tricky if you don’t have the correct model

As @Communicator mentions, it sounds like the original fitting according to the Vin plate is the 2.5 turbo but not intercooled, however from what you say from previous owner and the fact you say it has the flame start device then more than likely previous owner fitted the later 2.8 engine.
Strange it is under powered though, even without the intercooler which will improve it slightly, I found the 2.8 had plenty of grunt in my Iveco Daily vans and pick ups rated at 3.5 tonnes and more than capable of that, whilst towing a 3.5 tonne trailer loaded also.
Re the thermostat, what I tend to do is check both the new and the old one in a saucepan with a thermometer to see if actually opening and closing correctly. If the old one is opening slightly early or is partially open all the time then as you will know the engine cannot work efficiently.
Another point, if engine is not giving full power that may be another reason it is not reaching correct operating temperature.
I note the oil return hose from the turbo doesn't look shall we say quite "factory" installed. I trust it is suitable rubber for oil at high temp and not just old heater water hose?
It may also be an idea to see if the turbo actually spools up and delivers correct boost, assuming the turbo is in fair order and the actuator is not seized or diaphragm faulty (both common faults) although if no black smoke under load up hills with full throttle , then I I assume the turbo is working.
If engine is in sound order, then fitting a suitable intercooler is a good idea.
The engine I fitted in my boat came from a 1997 2.8 idt Ducato Maxi van rated at 122Hp in standard form which I chose as one of the last pre ECU engines (I didn't want electrical issues 6 or 7 miles out at sea) I had rebuilt that engine and marinised it with water cooled heat exchanger and intercooler etc. so I was quite happy to adjust the Bosch injector pump and the turbo to increase performance to approaching the 150Hp V6 Volvo Penta petrol engine I replaced in the boat. I will say I always allowed engine to reach correct operating temperature before giving it full power and ran it reliable for 4 years Summer and Winter before selling on.

wow guys many thanks for all the help knowledge and support if I took a picture and posted it here would you be able to identify the engine from looks alone I was told if it has the plastic cover on the rocker cover that it is the 2.5 engine. I am going to get the timing belt replaced this year and have the turbo checked I am not equipped to do this myself as i don’t have the space or tools at my place. I replaced the thermostat yesterday and bled the cooling system heater matrix etc the previous stat was opening but only very slightly. I also earthed temp gauge and the hot warning lamp and these are both working and the temp gauge did seem to rise more idling than previously. I am going for a good run the weekend. I am truly delighted with the van even at 31 years old it runs sweet and is in good condition so I will take all your advice on board I would even consider buying a new turbo and maybe even an inter cooler thanks guys

 

[tdrpete]

I also had a 1997 iveco daily 2.8 rear wheel drive and it had plenty of grunt even with three race bikes and all the gear in the back. The Hymer tips along at 65mph so I am happy with that

 

[bugsymike]

This is the earlier 2.5 type plastic top over cam cover in the left hand photo and the later 2.8 in the right hand one.
The second photo is of a turbo version so may be a guide on the top inlet manifold pipe work. Having said that, is it possible the previous owner simply put the non turbo manifold on? It was some time ago I had several varieties of those engines apart, so I am not sure if that was possible, although I did fit a 2.5 Direct injection head on a 2.8 Direct injection engine where after cam belt failure the valves had badly mangled the head.
Note, when cam belt fails I have found in the DI engines it bends the con rods, so try to avoid that.
Yes I much preferred the Iveco Daily with rear wheel drive, a lot easier to work on.
Although given it had a heavy steel chassis as opposed to the Ducato monocoque fuel economy was not so good, roughly 24mpg on average, but it did include heavy towing.
Unlikely to need it but a small point is the engine in rear wheel drive format will not fit the FWD Ducato as lower part including cast sump carrier area is different. Daily runs vertical, Ducato runs inclined, apart from the transverse bit.

 

[tdrpete]

The picture on the lhs is definitely the same as my engine so it is a 2.5. The previous owner had a big garage and a pit to work on the van he replaced the timing belt himself late 2021 and there was virtually no mileage on the van since he replaced it but for peace of mind I am going to get it replaced. I remember the big cross member on my iveco as I couldn’t get my leaky sump pan off so had to seal the pin home with chemical metal. Good all van was hard on diesel and prone to rust too. Cheers for the pictures

 

[bugsymike]

The picture on the lhs is definitely the same as my engine so it is a 2.5. The previous owner had a big garage and a pit to work on the van he replaced the timing belt himself late 2021 and there was virtually no mileage on the van since he replaced it but for peace of mind I am going to get it replaced. I remember the big cross member on my iveco as I couldn’t get my leaky sump pan off so had to seal the pin home with chemical metal. Good all van was hard on diesel and prone to rust too. Cheers for the pictures

Cam belt job is fairly simple (although easier on the Daily) though obviously more of a problem of access with some motor homes versions, but there have been several cases on Forum of members having the belt replaced and a poor job has been done causing a subsequent failure which that first has been a case of head off to replace valves and then they have later found what I mentioned regarding bent con rods , so destroying the engine with massive bills.
Reading between the lines it seems to have been related to the spacers on the cam belt tensioner which also secure the cam belt cover, either being replaced in wrong position or in securing the plastic cover they slacken some how the tensioner.
If you do decide to do it yourself I do have the cam belt timing books if you are sure which engine series you have.
Looking at the books it seems the earlier engines they suggest 60k miles between belts and no mention of time, but the later ones seem to say 70k miles and 5-6 year intervals.
So if easy to access it may be an idea to just inspect the condition without removal, assuming no noisy water pumps or guide bearings in that area. Just bear in mind about the spacers on the plastic cover/tensioner area.

 

[tdrpete]

Thats excellent advice I think this time for quick turnaround I will get it done locally there a quite a few reputable repair shops who have been in my local town for donkiez years but in the future it is a job I would like to tackle myself. I am going to replace the timing belt on my Fiat panda myself so I think that will be a good starting point. I might take you up on the timing manuals in the future thanks again @bugsymike