Technical Gearbox leak

[polyfrog99]

Hi guys,

My 2006 1.2 panda has got a bit of an issue

Unfortunately my MOT recently pointed out to me that my gearbox has a bit of a leak. Which gave me a bit of a fright because of course I didn't know how long it's had that, or how much oil was in it.... It did have a seal replaced in the gearbox about 3 years ago for a leak too, but here we are again. I've taken it to a garage, and the mechanic warned that he can replace the seal, but it may not work as if the bearings are worn, it will continue to leak. I got him to replace it anyway to see if it would at least fix the leak temporarily, but no luck - it's still got a fairly rapid oil leak He also told me there was very little oil in it, but he's topped it up of course.

Mechanic advised that the only solution would be a new gearbox which could well be too costly for me to justify sadly. Are there any other options? Does what the mechanic said make sense? I'd be sad to part with the car, and it's only done 65,000 miles.

(On a side note - after the new seal & oil top-up the gear change is actually noticeably worse. Car is very reluctant to come out of 1st gear and equally rough going into second, I'm double declutching to keep it happy. Bit odd since I'm assuming it had new oil when it had the last new seal & when clutch was changed in past? And the gear change was just fine when it had hardly any oil in it any ideas why that might be?)

Hope you're all having a good xmas.

 

[bugsymike]

Hi guys,

My 2006 1.2 panda has got a bit of an issue

Unfortunately my MOT recently pointed out to me that my gearbox has a bit of a leak. Which gave me a bit of a fright because of course I didn't know how long it's had that, or how much oil was in it.... It did have a seal replaced in the gearbox about 3 years ago for a leak too, but here we are again. I've taken it to a garage, and the mechanic warned that he can replace the seal, but it may not work as if the bearings are worn, it will continue to leak. I got him to replace it anyway to see if it would at least fix the leak temporarily, but no luck - it's still got a fairly rapid oil leak He also told me there was very little oil in it, but he's topped it up of course.

Mechanic advised that the only solution would be a new gearbox which could well be too costly for me to justify sadly. Are there any other options? Does what the mechanic said make sense? I'd be sad to part with the car, and it's only done 65,000 miles.

(On a side note - after the new seal & oil top-up the gear change is actually noticeably worse. Car is very reluctant to come out of 1st gear and equally rough going into second, I'm double declutching to keep it happy. Bit odd since I'm assuming it had new oil when it had the last new seal & when clutch was changed in past? And the gear change was just fine when it had hardly any oil in it any ideas why that might be?)

Hope you're all having a good xmas.

Seems low mileage to have that issue.
However a Doblo1.9 I had some years ago had the front bearing (first motion shaft ) wear out and the previous owner carried on driving, eventually he sold it to me with a (clutch Issue) ??? I bought online and unseen but at the price of £300 I had factored in most scenarios and as soon as I drove it onto the trailer I knew the issue which at 225 K miles was not surprising .
I did take the gearbox apart , but the extra movement from the worn bearing had destroyed reverse gear and laygear etc. so not viable to replace parts.
Fortunately I was able to source a recently reconditioned gearbox for £80, so I fitted that along with a new clutch and a s/h Dual Mass Flywheel and ran it for another four years.
So long story short, if you can source a good s/h box that may be the answer.

 

[koalar]

Looks like it's leaking from the offside differential oil seal in the photo or possibly the selection shaft higher up

They are sealed bearings with steel cages that side, never known one to fail

As long as the input seal isn't leaking also I don't see any problems in replacing just the diff seal

How's it looking further along this way

Is it still hard to come out of first with the engine off

Do you know what seal was replaced 3 years ago

 

[bugsymike]

Good points from @koalar , I was jumping in at the deep end

 

[koalar]

Is it a true fail

MOT is fairly relaxing oil leaks and only fail if a fluid leak creates a pool on the floor within 5 minutes that's more than 75mm in diameter or if there are many leaks which collectively leak fluid at the same rate. Maybe it's changed

5 minutes isn't very long

Maybe the rules have changed, but this is the third or so that's I have heard about this week

 

[polyfrog99]

Looks like it's leaking from the offside differential oil seal in the photo or possibly the selection shaft higher up

They are sealed bearings with steel cages that side, never known one to fail

As long as the input seal isn't leaking also I don't see any problems in replacing just the diff seal

How's it looking further along this way

View attachment 457213

Is it still hard to come out of first with the engine off

Do you know what seal was replaced 3 years ago

Nothing looks wet/dripping to the left. I've found the invoice from the seal a few years ago, was described as nearside gearbox outlet seal.

I've just tried the gears now with the engine off and its perfectly smooth - BUT I topped up the gearbox as I was taking the photos with best part of a litre of oil (which didn't top it up all the way)... so now I'm thinking that the rough gear change could have just been because it managed to more or less empty itself of oil pretty swiftly after I picked it up from the garage?

Is it a true fail

MOT is fairly relaxing oil leaks and only fail if a fluid leak creates a pool on the floor within 5 minutes that's more than 75mm in diameter or if there are many leaks which collectively leak fluid at the same rate. Maybe it's changed

5 minutes isn't very long

Maybe the rules have changed, but this is the third or so that's I have heard about this week

It was only an advisory, but I took it into a different garage to get it looked at after the MOT.

Sorry for the rubbish photos but it's not the best weather outside. It's mainly dripping from the point circled in red, but also from the point circled in blue. As you can see from the photos attached there's already quite a bit more oil in the pan since I took the last photo

 

[bugsymike]

Nothing looks wet/dripping to the left. I've found the invoice from the seal a few years ago, was described as nearside gearbox outlet seal.

I've just tried the gears now with the engine off and its perfectly smooth - BUT I topped up the gearbox as I was taking the photos with best part of a litre of oil (which didn't top it up all the way)... so now I'm thinking that the rough gear change could have just been because it managed to more or less empty itself of oil pretty swiftly after I picked it up from the garage?


It was only an advisory, but I took it into a different garage to get it looked at after the MOT.

Sorry for the rubbish photos but it's not the best weather outside. It's mainly dripping from the point circled in red, but also from the point circled in blue. As you can see from the photos attached there's already quite a bit more oil in the pan since I took the last photo

So sounds like O/S drive shaft output seal at differential part of gearbox.
I would grab hold of inner Drive shaft joint and see if excessive play in the bearing, if so pointless fitting oil seal without overhauls and new diff bearings.
Ford Escort Mk3s in the old days used to have an issue with speedos not working and it was caused by the drive for the speedo wearing out due to excessive movement in the diff bearings.

 

[koalar]

Original invoice

nearside gearbox outlet seal

It's now leaking from the other side

Where the driveshaft enters the gearbox looks dry in the photo but photos can be misleading

It's going to require a bit more investigation, where's the highest the oil is coming from

Maybe here

Is the bottom of the gearbox selector lever covered in oil

It's quite common to leak , I would also expect it to stop soon after the engine is switched off

I know it's a Punto but it's basically the same

Click hear

Guide: Renewing a gear shifter seal

My Grande Punto 2008 1,2 gear box looked like this: I thought that drive shaft seal was leaking but I was advised it probably was a gear shift seal leak. It actually was the case: I ordered a new seal from eBay (30 €). Replacing an old seal...

www.fiatforum.com

Both are very simple fixes with the right tools, little more time required if using DIY equipment but doable by most people

 

[rmjbn1]

mechanic warned that he can replace the seal, but it may not work as if the bearings are worn, it will continue to leak.

I got him to replace it anyway to see if it would at least fix the leak temporarily, but no luck

I'm a bit confused.
It does look very much like the driveshaft seal is leaking.

Is it the bearing here that the mechanic thinks is shot?

And they replaced that seal but it's still leaking?

Is it that hard of a job to replace those bearings?

Hard to imagine there's anything higher up on the box that could leak that much.

 

[koalar]

Is it that hard of a job to replace those bearings

Big job

Differential casing off

There tapper bearing the inner parts are on the shafts and need a bearing puller to get off

Never known one go on a panda or 500, a few did go on the Punto, unsure if the were the tjet

Diff seals easy job but it will be very tight

Need to asses the problem, if it the diff seal and a groove is worn in the drive shaft you can get away with not pushing the seal all the way back so it runs on a different part of the shaft

If it's just the seal, it's very straight forward

The seal is in a plate on that side that's only sealed with RTV

If the input bearings has fallen apart there will be some bouncing around that can crack the case, unlikely as there would be other symptoms, noise and judder

 

[polyfrog99]

Hi guys, thanks for all the advice. I found a gearbox for cheap on a Panda group on facebook, and my local garage has kindly fit it for me. So it's no longer leaking

Shifting into first and second is noticeably worse - feels like 1st is quite far away, and you have to really push it into a tight notch at the end to get it to go in. Easy to think it's in without pushing it far enough. Second is similar but not quite as bad. Third is pretty okay. Fourth Fifth and reverse absolutely fine. Symptoms the same with the engine off. Mechanic said he'd noticed this on a test drive but wasn't sure what the cause was.

Truth be told though I've now bought a 100hp so I'm hoping to sell this one soon!

 

[koalar]

Engine off

Reach behind the battery

Select 1st manually from on top of the gearbox

Bit of a tight fit, but I can just about jam my arm in without undoing anything

If it's fine from here it's the selector cables

Seeing as you are selling the car, dribble some light oil down the wires, it will probably help temporarily

It's not unusual for them to fail soon after a clutch change, probably due to being moved