Tuning Fiat Punto (2000 Mk2) 1.2 8v - Tuning - I know...

[Scottyf]

Afternoon All,
Looking for some general help. I am competent with a spanner to start with. I understand that the 1.2L 8v is massivly limited in power and tuning possibilities.

However I have read alot on this forum, sporting punto forums and google the life out of the question.

My car / Engine is the 8valve with MPI.
I've already had the usual head gasket go and gearbox and clutch which i have replaced myself. (Usuaully using guides from this website).

Anyway I have come up with the followings - I would like the car to reach 75bhp - 80hp. Something acheivable to reach the limits of say the 16valve punto.

Now please don't give me the usual just chage to a 16valve car. Or get a hgt, I'm 25 and can have a higher powered car. But i like the one I have. I have done alot of work on it and it will do me for a while yet.

Anyway I have come up with buying an 866 cam, easy enough to fit and maybe adding the Mkcritch chip. However - does the MkCritch chip work with an MPI head?

I know about the GSR Induction or Focus Induction kit. But i'm not to fussed about whacking one of those on.

Or ifanyone can give me the differences between the 1.2L 8Value MPI (60hp) and the Punto 75hp 8value MPI in the punto mk1 that would be great.

I know the 75 punto has a 4-2-1 exhaust and different cam but is that the only differences.

Any help appriciated.

 

[ycming]

The Mckitch chip won't be compatible with the MPI. Why not fit the 16v engine ? You could use your existing loom and still runs with the ECU.

With the P75, is the combinations of the:

Better ports design
ECU
Exhaust mani
cam

Ming

 

[clock34]

the 16v wouldnt be that hard to do tbh and youd have 80bhp from the off set.

if you are sticking with yours, lighten the flywheel get the 866 cam induction kit and get some porting done on your head.

you can have your ecu remapped

 

[rallycinq]

While its quite easy to whap bits onto your existing engine, are you confident of the condition of the base unit?

Is the cam timing currently spot on?

Cheers

SPD

 

[Todger182]

My personal opinion is go for the 1.2 16v block, you have 50% of the work already done with the wiring and ECU already.

I'm just finishing up doing my 1.2 16v swap taken out of a 2003 fiat stilo, if you find that engine then you don't even need to modify the engine mount to clear for the alternator belt (it's setup exactly the same way as the sei so no rub or even possible snagging on the belt).

I had a 1.2 8v engine with some mods pushing 80bhp at the wheels, although it was very quick, it wasn't that reliable as it was and old engine.

Thanks

 

[simondhopkins]

My personal opinion is go for the 1.2 16v block, you have 50% of the work already done with the wiring and ECU already.

I'm just finishing up doing my 1.2 16v swap taken out of a 2003 fiat stilo, if you find that engine then you don't even need to modify the engine mount to clear for the alternator belt (it's setup exactly the same way as the sei so no rub or even possible snagging on the belt).

I had a 1.2 8v engine with some mods pushing 80bhp at the wheels, although it was very quick, it wasn't that reliable as it was and old engine.

Thanks

On about 60/75bhp etc, I'd love to know how they get 60bhp from a 1.2 8v spi when my old ka (yes i know its block is basicly from a ford anglia) that was 1.3 mpi and just about had 60bhp and crapper fuel economy. Gota love the fire engines.

 

[Scottyf]

thanks for the info however i didn't really want to change the heads over to the 16v. I've recently had the 8v head skimmed and piston's out and cleaned the lot plus had a new gear box and clutch put in. So the block its self is in as good condition as a 60k engine can be. I've brought the 866 cam to fit and re shim. If i was after the 16v i'd have just brought the sporting car. I'd like to stay with 8v head if possible. I thought the ecu on the 8v was not possible to be mapped? Thanks for your help!

 

[Scottyf]

I had a 1.2 8v engine with some mods pushing 80bhp at the wheels, although it was very quick, it wasn't that reliable as it was and old engine.

Thanks

Can you please enlighten me on what modification you had to enable you to hit that 80hp threshold. Its just the 8v for every day running is pretty good in the fact the power is built up lower down the rev range.

I have thoguht about just buying the 1.9 jtd but having drove one the petrol is far smoother. I would like to try the 1.3 multijet to see how that compares.

 

[clock34]

mine is 85bhp and i run 1.2 8v 866cam supersprint moanifold and a uno inlet with induction kit.... but with a mpi which yours will be alot of that wont work.

its a different inlet needs a different induction. you can lighten your flywheel and port the head abit, and the mpi can be chipped

 

[Scottyf]

Indeed mine is the MPI. I thought I was able to increase fueling as such with MPI due to the fuel pressure having a higher capacity than the SPI versions. I have brought the 866 cam to fit. hopefully with my with me mid week. even if it only gives me an extra 5 bhp (which i might be lucky) its a start.

Can you point my in the right direction of chip tuning at some reptutable companies. Would the chip just be a piggyback system as such?

Thanks for your help clock34 helping me understand the pitfalls and limitations of the engine. (Seems to be mostly the ancilieries than the engine itself).

 

[Scottyf]

Sorry and the reason why I don't really want to covert it to 16v means I have to source a cylinder head, Loom, Ecu, Intakes possibly fuel pump? and a hole host of other bits...

Hope you understand!

 

[MikeyB1987]

Can you please enlighten me on what modification you had to enable you to hit that 80hp threshold. Its just the 8v for every day running is pretty good in the fact the power is built up lower down the rev range.

I have thoguht about just buying the 1.9 jtd but having drove one the petrol is far smoother. I would like to try the 1.3 multijet to see how that compares.

I have to agree with you on the 1.2 8v engine, I have a MK2 Punto Active, and I find it is really quick in low revs, I've been driving it for 2 or 3 months now and once I got used to the car and everyday driving rather than 2 hours a week of lessons, it surprised me just how quick it is. Mine will do 40 in 3rd gear easily.

 

[Scottyf]

2nd should do 50mph before it hits the limiter... Hence why I think the 866 cam could give it a bit more umph at peak rev's while still retaining the bottom end torque. (If you can call it that... I've had motorbikes with more torque).

I'm not asking for miricles its just I do like to tinker and make small improvments to the engine. Little off topic anyway...

This is why I put this thread in the Cinq/Sei as they seem to be able to squeeze every drop of power out of the 1242cc unit. Unfortuantly it was moved :-(

 

[Scottyf]

Evening All,
As requested and as i said I would be fitting the 866 Cam to my stinky green punto (As well as giving it an oil and filter change (Sorry no real pics of this as I just done it and forgot about the piccys).

This could also be useful for those who need to change a cam belt...

Anyway here goes.

So heres a nice picture of said 1.2, 8v run of the mill punto engine.

Pic 02 is me finishing the oil filter change. Sorry I didnt take any pictures. I drove car up ramps. Undone sump plug / Drained oil, used a special £1 tool from Aldi to undo the oil filter. Ran the car for a few second to pump the crap pil out. then attached new oil filer and screwed back in the sump. At this point I haven't put any new oil in.

Dropped it off the ramps and jacked up the driver side front wheel. Then as I am poor and don't have axel stands- I used the pikey version... Bricks.

Anyway here is a picture of the punto 75 camshaft and the shims and carriers I brought for a total of £20 inc postage. Its not as in good nick as my car camshaft but theres nothing horrendous about it as all. Just a bit more worn.

and a close up of the 866 mark on the cam shaft.

So begin by taking of the air filter. Nothing to advanced here. Find th bolts and un do them and lift off.

Next move. Undo the top cam belt cover. There are a few bolts securing it to the head of the car and also you will have to un do a couple of clips that keep the wires that run down to the alternator drive (For the timing). and you end up with something like the below.

If not already done so, remove the front right wheel (Driver side) and you should have something like the below.
You will need to remove the inner linings (about 3000 phillips head self tapping screws). Becareful pulling it out. It should be to much of a problem but you need to really get in there to find att the screws else it won't come out.

You now need to remove the inner cover that houses the cam belt and the alternator. Again some more self tapping screws to remove. Should be much easier this one. You should now see the bottom of the crank and the alternator wheel (Gold coloured). This also sets your timing and ignition so when removing the two wires attached to it make your they are well out the way and safe.

Now while we are sitting out our bums grab a jack and support the sump. I've bodged a pices of wood across the sump do the pressure is more even. This is needed for when we take the top engine mount (Brace) off. Else your poor engine will fall to the floor and bend your chassis with it.

Ok now your ready to start undoing the engine mounts. There are three bolts attached to the chassis. Then 4 bolts holding the upper most brace to the cylinder head. and then a further 4 bolts hold the middle brace to the cylinder head. Fun times un do the little buggers. You might need a bit of leverage as they might be tight. WD40 never does a miss but make sure you don't get any on the belt (If your keeping it).

Ok brilliant at this point i took the rocker cover off (4 small 10mm bolts). and now you can see the pretty cam and shims.

Ok back to the timing and alternator belts. I have removed all braces from the block (if you doing camshaft alone you can keep the mounts all there and undo the camshaft in situ IF you have two people there making sure the timing stays the same. But as I am on my own I took it all out.)

Ok now here comes some bodgery as I don't have a camshaft locking too. I used a large screw driver and big spanner. Screw driver locks cam in place and big spanner unwinds the camshaft from the camshaft wheel.

After that undo all the 8 bolts that hold the cam shaft in place and the oil carrier. all 10mm and all nice and easy to remove. You may at this point remove the HT coils and distributor out the way for easier access (Not to hard right hand side of the engine and a couple of 10mm nuts... don't loose them.) You could have done this at the start but as I am making this up as I go along with no manual I'm just doing things as I need to.

Now. Here are a few pictures of the cam differences between the standard 60hp cam and the 75hp punto 866 cam. I have used cam folloer number 1 (Nearest the cam belt) and a bolt to show the difference in lift.

Standard Cam

866 cam

So as you can see the the lift is slightly higher on the 866 cam. Thus more valve opening time = more fuel + more air = more power.

Ok now all the you have to do is add the new camshaft to the cam wheel (remember one bolt and has a handy metal cut out so you don't put the wheel on the wrong way). put it back in your engine and start tighening the 8 bolts you recently removed back onto the car and tighten the camshaft wheel to the cam using my bodging technique, only clockwise this time else your'll be undoing it again. This keeps the camshaft all tightly down so you can measure the valve clearences.
Don't worry about timing its not important at the moment. besides your belts fell off and it now looks like this...

Ok, Start measuring those valves. There is a trcik to not rotating the camshaft as many times as I did but who cares. Sprocket on the camshaft wheel and start turning and measuring. Remember to heasure the gap as the lobe faces directly vertical with the engine (Like the top of an egg facing you). And note down how far each of the shims are off the mark of
0.4 for INLET and 0.45 for EXHAUST.

Using the good old feeler guages

Note down your results like me...

I knew you'd like my little drawings too. So as you can see not out majorly but every little helps.
Now to make life easier as I have to change a few shims you need to take the camshaft back out again. Same 8 bolts... Yawn...
PS... If you dont have a load of shims knocking about... Please measure these gaps by ... Removing air filter. removing rocker cover and measuring while everything is in situ. You might need two small screw drivers to remover the shims (very fiddley) and note there size (Numbers are usually on them or use a verneer or micrometer if the numbers have faded) and ordering the correct increase or decrease in shim size. They come in 0.05 increments.
Sorry I probably should have told you that at the start... But we are changing the whole camshaft so it would need need shims anyway.

So take out the shims and carriers and start removing the shims and looking at their silly little numbers. Now you might beable to make up each of the differences by swapping around the shims. Its very possible. I managed to get 7 out of the 8 spot on by just mvoing them around. One was out by 0.10 and I had a spare 9 shims so I managed to make them all up. Spot on.

Brilliant. Now put all the shims and carriers back in their corresponding valves. and add the camshaft again - same 8 bolts, only this time on the three bolts you are doing up make sure you add the oil carrier to the fixed points. else your car won't oil / lubricate the cams properly or valves.

Ok now to do the timing. you'll jave to remove the bottom alternator wheel (That gold thing ;-)) that is placed on the crank by 3 small 13mm bolts. becareful it rotates while you undo it. so you'll have to use a screw driver to stop it rotating.
Un do the camshaft tensioner (again one 13mm nut).
Line up the top smashaft wheel so the markings are lined up as so...

Ok the pic there not quite right I later fixed this but you get my point.

Line up the bottom crank markings (This is where you have just took that gold alternator wheel off) like so...

Now once the belt is fitted (I know I've made it sound eay it takes a bit of fiddling.) you can tighten the cambelt tensioner. You need a pair of circlip pliers. or a bodge fix would be to wedge a screw driver behind the tensioner and push away from you. The tennsions is on a concentric fixing and ass you move it the belt gets tighter. Now you've need to juggle with this as you need to tighten and tighten the nut that holds the tensioner.
Now test that you can't turn the belt more than a 1/4 turn on its longest drop by the water pump.

Ok great. Now you need to test the timing is ok and true and not out. I sat by my front wheel for this and turned the crank with a socket set. Please bear in mind this is alot easier to do when you have no spark plugs still in the head as there will be no compression. But as I'm lazy I just used brute strength. Turn the crank 720 degrees , two full turns. and then go back to the camshaft wheel to make sure the marksing still line up. If it does great your timing is all done. If not undo the tensioner and start again. Please note while the distriubutor housing its always a good check to see that the opposite end of the camshaft is horizontol when the markingsa are lined up. The cam has a 5mm line cut out of it that should sit horizontal with the engine. The largest part of this horizontal gap should be nearest the floor.

Now at this point the timing is right I started adding oil while the rocker covers is off. Its always doo practise to oile the new shiims cams and valves. And as I drained all the oil there was none in the engine. So splish splash.

Now start adding all the bits back in reverse. Add the alternator wheel and belt making sure its at the correct tension. add all the timing wires back by the alternator belt. Add the engine mounts and the rocker cover back.

and while the car is still up and yo've not put everything back.. try start it. Make sure its not in gear mind. as your missing a wheel and your on jacks.
If it starts great. If it doesn't fire up. Start the fault finding.

The engine is non-interferance so even if you've ballsed up the timings you wont have killed your car.

I'm sorry the thread is a bit breif and you can do things in slightly different orders and I've probably missed out large chunks of infor and pictures. But I'm tired now. and if anyone needs help please let me know. I will explain in more depth as I can. Its just I'm doing this from memory.


------
Ok the result.

Took a test drive once everything was back on board and its not a miricle cam that will make your punto uber quick (nothing will do that you have a 1242cc 8v punto you fool buy the HGT!) but the cam has given the car more of a mid range pull and instead of fadig off by the redline it keeps pulling untill it hits the limiter. (I'm wondering if the punto 75 ECU had a higher limiter than the Punto 60hp versions) as it pulls untill it redlines out.

Next the GSR...
Someone sell me one!

 

[salderney]

IMine will do 40 in 3rd gear easily.

Don't get you here.. I am struggling to think of any cars that can't easily do 40 in 3rd.. my 1.2 mia goes over 60 in 2nd gear although it pains me to do so as the engine is screaming. I prefer to lose a second on the 0-60 and change up to 3rd at 50. I assume the tall second gear is to keep the 0-60 time looking respectable on paper on the spec lists. Maybe a typo.. anyway:

I actually thought my Mia had more than 60bhp until looking on here, thought it was around 75 BHP as it's nippy but have checked it's figures and it is only 60BHP but I was looking for anything I could do to make it a little better and more responsive, but nothing past bolt ons. Chips, air filter etc so which are the best ways to achieve 10-15% improvement? I am after efficiency and response and that's it so no major engine mods

 

[s and b]

Don't get you here.. I am struggling to think of any cars that can't easily do 40 in 3rd.. my 1.2 mia goes over 60 in 2nd gear although it pains me to do so as the engine is screaming. I prefer to lose a second on the 0-60 and change up to 3rd at 50. I assume the tall second gear is to keep the 0-60 time looking respectable on paper on the spec lists. Maybe a typo.. anyway:

I actually thought my Mia had more than 60bhp until looking on here, thought it was around 75 BHP as it's nippy but have checked it's figures and it is only 60BHP but I was looking for anything I could do to make it a little better and more responsive, but nothing past bolt ons. Chips, air filter etc so which are the best ways to achieve 10-15% improvement? I am after efficiency and response and that's it so no major engine mods

wow
are you deaf now then?
are say are you deaf

its a mia so must be at least 12 years old are you trying to get the big ends out?
poor mia
get a bigger engined car

 

[fingers99]

:yeahthat:

You're not going to get a 10 - 15% power increase from the stock engine without internal modifications and a bespoke chip, and it will make the engine peakier.

Lots of 16v engines out there ready to pop in.