Technical Fiat Punto mk2b 1.2 16v Terrible starting issues

[HonestEnthusiast]

Hey guys

Once again I am trying to fix my grandfather's old punto as it makes him sad when it doesn't run...

My issue is that the engine will crank indefinitely on its own.
When I add Easy Start to try and coax it to at least run, the ignition lights cut out and the starter struggles, the engine will sputter to life briefly (I think it will run on the petrol whilst doing this as it doesn't die after a second) then die out.

Attached are videos attempting to start it on its own (just cranking) and engine started with easy start (struggling) !

My gut instinct is telling me it could be battery but me and my grandfather think surely it couldn't be that simple? 12.4 volts with ignition according to scanner and no code either (ISO/SAE reserved) sensors seem ok.

I have;

• Added fresh petrol 5l
• Inspected fuel pump (couldn't figure to find the fuel filter on it)
• Changed every relevant fuse and all of the relays
• Cleaned M.A.P sensor and tried to run without the sensor connected
• Changed spark plugs with new (cheap) ones

One thing to add is I tried to put ignition leads connected correctly to the distributor cap by copying the numbers on someone elses post as it doesn't have its own surely its the same?

Any input from anyone is much appreciated and thanks for reading guys!

 

[HonestEnthusiast]

Forgot to add we (fast) charge the battery before trying to start!

 

[Greasytrucker]

Could it be a coil/coilpack problem whichever yours has?

 

[HonestEnthusiast]

Could it be a coil/coilpack problem whichever yours has?

I don't have the means to check sadly but it does send the spark to all the plugs

 

[Zardo]

Maybe cranking it without any of the spark plugs fitted will prove that there is either a fuel mixture or no fuel. Because if the injectors are working, the engine should spit out its fuel mixture by every empty spark plug hole. Don‘t smoke whilst doing this and keep the ignition lines away from the mist. Have your grandpa crank the engine so you can examine what‘s coming out.

Next steps: looking at injectors, looking at fuel pump pressure, looking at the fuel type (did somebody fill her up with inadequate fuel?)

 

[HonestEnthusiast]

Maybe cranking it without any of the spark plugs fitted will prove that there is either a fuel mixture or no fuel. Because if the injectors are working, the engine should spit out its fuel mixture by every empty spark plug hole. Don‘t smoke whilst doing this and keep the ignition lines away from the mist. Have your grandpa crank the engine so you can examine what‘s coming out.

Next steps: looking at injectors, looking at fuel pump pressure, looking at the fuel type (did somebody fill her up with inadequate fuel?)

I think there is fuel at the rail and when we take the plugs out they are always wet so must be ok

 

[judderbar]

From your videos the battery is for sure sufficiently good to get it started and running well.

So it hardly runs on easy start? Is the first video a start using easy start?

Maybe the coil leads are messed up, but your car is not going to have a different firing order.

Check the timing. Your belt might have slipped or it was just timed wrong. Dont operate the starter motor when you do this! Leave the ignition off. Better to disconnect the battery. With a bit of effort and rocking you can move the engine when it is in 4th gear. Remove the plugs to make it easier to turn the engine. Put equal length rods/sticks in 1 and 2 plug holes touching the pistons. Take off the round cover just below the plugs on the exhaust side and turn the engine until you find the rectangular slot in the camshaft. 1 and 2 pistons should now be level as shown by the sticks. The timing is correct when number one piston is half way going down (on the intake stroke) and the car is moving forwards and the slot is exactly level with the hole. The slot will take a ten mm mm allen key to help you check the position relative to the hole. But if it will not start because of timing it is going to be a very long way out rather than millimeters. The pistons have two positions for one turn of the camshafts.

 

[HonestEnthusiast]

From your videos the battery is for sure sufficiently good to get it started and running well.

So it hardly runs on easy start? Is the first video a start using easy start?

Maybe the coil leads are messed up, but your car is not going to have a different firing order.

Check the timing. Your belt might have slipped or it was just timed wrong. Dont operate the starter motor when you do this! Leave the ignition off. Better to disconnect the battery. With a bit of effort and rocking you can move the engine when it is in 4th gear. Remove the plugs to make it easier to turn the engine. Put equal length rods/sticks in 1 and 2 plug holes touching the pistons. Take off the round cover just below the plugs on the exhaust side and turn the engine until you find the rectangular slot in the camshaft. 1 and 2 pistons should now be level as shown by the sticks. The timing is correct when number one piston is half way going down (on the intake stroke) and the car is moving forwards and the slot is exactly level with the hole. The slot will take a ten mm mm allen key to help you check the position relative to the hole. But if it will not start because of timing it is going to be a very long way out rather than millimeters. The pistons have two positions for one turn of the camshafts.

Yeah video 1 is when I used some Easy start and I thought it had to be battery due to the way the electrics were cutting out and motor cutting out when trying to start... so you think its the timing that could cause this?

Thanks for your reply ill try this and keep everyone updated

 

[judderbar]

Yeah video 1 is when I used some Easy start and I thought it had to be battery due to the way the electrics were cutting out and motor cutting out when trying to start... so you think its the timing that could cause this?

Thanks for your reply ill try this and keep everyone updated

the only way to find the problem is to test what might be the problem.

Can you confirm your spark leads are connected like my ones in the picture?

 

[HonestEnthusiast]

the only way to find the problem is to test what might be the problem.

Can you confirm your spark leads are connected like my ones in the picture?

Indeed they are not

If I get the chance I'll go today to correct them and try your fix as well regardless i'll keep everybody posted!

 

[Zardo]

I have;

• Added fresh petrol 5l
• Inspected fuel pump (couldn't figure to find the fuel filter on it)
• Changed every relevant fuse and all of the relays
• Cleaned M.A.P sensor and tried to run without the sensor connected
• Changed spark plugs with new (cheap) ones

One thing to add is I tried to put ignition leads connected correctly to the distributor cap by copying the numbers on someone elses post as it doesn't have its own surely its the same?

Hm the idea to check those leads is a good one.

Also there might be numbers printed on the plastic part of the coil, like here.

In case they were correct, then it would likely be 1 starting from top right and going counterclockwise 2, 3, 4?

However, firing order should be 1-3-2-4

But it seems there are only two coils and two spark plugs get ignition at the same time.

The ignition system is static advance type with two twin-outlet coils. The power modules are located inside the control unit.

1, H.T. socket for spark plug for cylinder 1

2, H.T. socket for spark plug for cylinder 2

3, H.T. socket for spark plug for cylinder 3

4, H.T. socket for spark plug for cylinder 4

The spark plugs for cylinder 1-4 and 2-3 are connected directly (two at a time) by means of high tension leads to the terminals of the coil secondary winding and their connection is in series because the engine head joins them.

Coils:

Primary winding resistance: 0.52÷0.62 ohm at 23˚C
Secondary circuit resistance: 6830÷7830 ohm at 23˚C.

I wonder if you actually fry the coils if you connect the ignition leads incorrectly.

Hope this helps.

that's for Punto classic 188 1.2 l 16 V since 09/2003

 

[HonestEnthusiast]

Hi guys!

So many thanks to @judderbar for his picture and advise I rearranged the leads in his order and pushed the car in 4th a couple cm (stupid i know) and the car roared to life!

I guess I can be added to the time wasters hall of fame…

Thank you all very much for your time and help

One thing to add is the car struggles to start by itself when “cold”. Add the easy start run the car and until it cools down it will start as many times as needed the second it’s cold it just cranks. I cleaned m.a.p sensor and it must work as when unplugged car struggles hesitates etc. not sure if it’s for a separate thread…. Once again guys thanks!

 

[Greasytrucker]

Hi guys!

So many thanks to @judderbar for his picture and advise I rearranged the leads in his order and pushed the car in 4th a couple cm (stupid i know) and the car roared to life!

I guess I can be added to the time wasters hall of fame…

Thank you all very much for your time and help

One thing to add is the car struggles to start by itself when “cold”. Add the easy start run the car and until it cools down it will start as many times as needed the second it’s cold it just cranks. I cleaned m.a.p sensor and it must work as when unplugged car struggles hesitates etc. not sure if it’s for a separate thread…. Once again guys thanks!

No time wasting about it, we all miss obvious things that are staring us in the face sometimes. A fresh set of eyes is all it takes at times

 

[judderbar]

I am wondering what the car sounds like now when you try to do a cold start? Can you do another video?

 

[Zardo]

Problably too lean, especially when cold. You could start by cleaning the injectors, lazy way: by adding injection cleaner to the fuel. Or remove them for cleaning.

Just refit them in the correct order

 

[HonestEnthusiast]

I am wondering what the car sounds like now when you try to do a cold start? Can you do another video?

It may be a while until I’m back there again

Cold start my grandfather called the day after and said it fired up maybe after two or three turns of the key. When I was there it seemed to fire up just like it did before, idled and reved without issue.

Once again thank you for your advise

 

[HonestEnthusiast]

Problably too lean, especially when cold. You could start by cleaning the injectors, lazy way: by adding injection cleaner to the fuel. Or remove them for cleaning.

Just refit them in the correct order

I may try this next time I’m there