Technical Fiat 500 new cambelt and spark plugs

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Technical Fiat 500 new cambelt and spark plugs

greypanda

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Hi guys just had my low mileage service at the dealership for my 2016 Fiat 500 (19k miles)

All is great with the car but they have told me I need a new cambelt (and water pump) due to the age and mileage of my car, spark plugs and air filter…

Ok so spark plugs and air filter I can understand and they’re an easy fix for me to do myself. But the cambelt really?!! It’s 5 years old nearly and only 19k miles… can I get your opinions please?

Not having anything replaced on it yet !

Thanks guys
 
But the cambelt really?

Yes, really - that is what the service schedule calls for. Belts deteriorate based on both age and mileage. But the air filter is good for 24,000 miles in normal use; no need to change that based on time. The plugs, if not changed before, will definitely need doing now.

On the old 1.2 FIRE (Euro 4 and earlier), the engine was cambelt safe; if it broke, all you had to do was replace it, and all would be well. But the Euro5/6 1.2 used in the 500 is an interference engine and the pistons will smash into the valves if the belt breaks.

To be fair, cambelt failure is almost never reported here, whereas posts about faults following cambelt replacement appear quite often. That's because the procedure isn't exactly standard; the camshaft sprocket isn't keyed and there are no fixed timing marks, so the correct locking tools must be used, which many private owners and independent garages won't have. So if you do opt for replacement, make sure it's done by a garage with knowledge of the correct procedure and the proper tools; this is one of the rare examples of a job I'd want done by a franchised dealer, if not doing it myself.

Will it fail in the next 2-3 years if you just leave it? Probably not. But if it does, the consequences of failure are serious and your engine will be ruined. On the earlier 1.2 engines, I'd probably leave well alone in your situation, but on a 500, personally I wouldn't take the risk.
 
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Hi guys just had my low mileage service at the dealership for my 2016 Fiat 500 (19k miles)

All is great with the car but they have told me I need a new cambelt (and water pump) due to the age and mileage of my car, spark plugs and air filter…

Ok so spark plugs and air filter I can understand and they’re an easy fix for me to do myself. But the cambelt really?!! It’s 5 years old nearly and only 19k miles… can I get your opinions please?

Not having anything replaced on it yet !

Thanks guys
As you're talking about a cam belt I am presuming it's got the 1.2 four cylinder engine? If so then here's the "official" recommendation: http://fiat.mopar.eu/contents/brand...elt_replacement/timing-belt-leaflets-fiat.pdf So 5 years OR 72,000 miles, whichever comes first, for our wee FIRE Engines. As you can see it's a mileage and/or time dependent task. It's very tempting to think that because the mileage is well below the recommended change interval that you can extend the time before renewing it. This is not valid thinking as a belt that does a lot of low speed running with short journeys and lots of stopping and starting is actually being subjected to much greater stresses than one which covers a much higher annual mileage cruising the motorway or open road.

As to the need for a water pump? Well, the timing belt is driven by the crankshaft. It runs from the crank sprocket, at the bottom of the front of the engine, up around the tensioning bearing, around the camshaft sprocket and down around the water pump back to the crankshaft sprocket. It's vanishingly seldom that problems come about with the cam or crank sprocket - although newer engines like your's have a hydraulically actuated VVT pulley which might develop an oil leak if you're very unlucky - However the tensioning bearing and water pump both have "sealed for life" bearings which can, and do, occasionally fail. The water pump is by far the most common, often due to the seal failing and then allowing coolant to wash the lubricant out followed shortly by the bearing failing. My advice would be to always do a water pump when renewing the timing belt (Many of the manufacturers now produce all in one kits which include the water pump and they wouldn't do that unless there was a big demand). The 1.2 from around 2011 onwards was an "interference" engine, (basically, if you've got a VVT cam sprocket then the engine is interference) so if the belt breaks or comes off the sprockets the valves and pistons will get catastrophically familiar with each other and you're looking at a substantial bill to sort it all out. By the way, unless the auxiliary (fan in old language) belt has been recently changed, get them to put a new one on when they are reassembling - the old one has got to be removed for access anyway so they should only charge you the price of the belt itself.

We have this FIRE based engine in both my Panda and our older boy's Punto. Our Panda only does a few thousand miles a year now we're retired and is non interference anyway being pre 2011. Our boy does more miles in his Punto, which does have the VVT pulley, around 8,000 yearly. So neither vehicle is doing high mileage. I keep a watch on them and once the vehicle in question has passed the 4 year mark since last renewal I mark it up for doing at some convenient time, and when weather permits, during the next year. Typically then I'm doing a belt change around every 4.5 to 5 years on either vehicle. Here's a good guide as to what the procedure entails https://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/belt-replacement-guide-fiat-500/ As cam belts go it's actually one of the simpler ones to do and most competent garages should find no problem doing it.

Just in case it's of interest. Not only Fiat incorporate the water pump into the cam belt drive train and I've done many of this type in my life. It's really very unusual to find a cam belt directly, and of itself, failing (unless it's been grossly wrongly tensioned when it was fitted) It's not at all unusual to find a bearing, either tensioner or water pump, considerably "under the weather" and, of the two, the water pump is much the more likely suspect.
 
Hi jrk, You're obviously much faster on the keyboard than me! Absolutely, on a low annual mileage like this, take a look at the air filter and just leave it if it looks Ok - but keep an eye on fuel consumption as micronic filter paper can have it's porosity reduced my moisture so it can look good but have reduced ability to flow air if the car has stood for long periods in a damp environment. 5 year old plugs? yes I think I'd definitely be changing them even if they are of the "long life" variety.

On reflection I think you are giving good advice here, I mean about getting someone who really "knows their onions" to do the cam belt if it's not something you're competent to do yourself. As you say there have recently been a number of posts from people who have found themselves in difficulty and I think this is because they didn't have a very deep understanding of what they were trying to do before they started and then not a deep enough understanding of these engines once they got into trouble. However, thinking back on some of the more difficult engines I've done, I would still defend my statement that this is a pretty "easy" one to do? and I doubt if a competent (important word that) general garage workshop would have any difficulty?
 
That's only true for the Panda.

The 500 used the 69HP VVT interference engine from launch in 2008; there are no cambelt safe 500's.
Thanks for that. I'm deeply steeped in Pandas and I didn't know the 500 had always been interference. However you'll notice I did say - in the same breath - that if it's got a VVT pulley then it's going to be interference however thanks for bringing that up, I stand corrected and it occurs to me also that, of course, some people may not know how to tell a VVT engine? so knowing year of manufacture would be very relevant.
 
Yes, really - that is what the service schedule calls for. Belts deteriorate based on both age and mileage. But the air filter is good for 24,000 miles in normal use; no need to change that based on time. The plugs, if not changed before, will definitely need doing now.

On the old 1.2 FIRE (Euro 4 and earlier), the engine was cambelt safe; if it broke, all you had to do was replace it, and all would be well. But the Euro5/6 1.2 used in the 500 is an interference engine and the pistons will smash into the valves if the belt breaks.

To be fair, cambelt failure is almost never reported here, whereas posts about faults following cambelt replacement appear quite often. That's because the procedure isn't exactly standard; the camshaft sprocket isn't keyed and there are no fixed timing marks, so the correct locking tools must be used, which many private owners and independent garages won't have. So if you do opt for replacement, make sure it's done by a garage with knowledge of the correct procedure and the proper tools; this is one of the rare examples of a job I'd want done by a franchised dealer, if not doing it myself.

Will it fail in the next 2-3 years if you just leave it? Probably not. But if it does, the consequences of failure are serious and your engine will be ruined. On the earlier 1.2 engines, I'd probably leave well alone in your situation, but on a 500, personally I wouldn't take the risk.

Excellent thank you. I stand corrected in that case !

Dealership has quoted £399 for the cambelt and water pump change. They’ll obviously know what they’re doing but no harm in finding an independent Fiat specialist I guess. Plugs at £140. Air filter and pollen filter at £107.
 
As you're talking about a cam belt I am presuming it's got the 1.2 four cylinder engine? If so then here's the "official" recommendation: http://fiat.mopar.eu/contents/brand...elt_replacement/timing-belt-leaflets-fiat.pdf So 5 years OR 72,000 miles, whichever comes first, for our wee FIRE Engines. As you can see it's a mileage and/or time dependent task. It's very tempting to think that because the mileage is well below the recommended change interval that you can extend the time before renewing it. This is not valid thinking as a belt that does a lot of low speed running with short journeys and lots of stopping and starting is actually being subjected to much greater stresses than one which covers a much higher annual mileage cruising the motorway or open road. Hi

As to the need for a water pump? Well, the timing belt is driven by the crankshaft. It runs from the crank sprocket, at the bottom of the front of the engine, up around the tensioning bearing, around the camshaft sprocket and down around the water pump back to the crankshaft sprocket. It's vanishingly seldom that problems come about with the cam or crank sprocket - although newer engines like your's have a hydraulically actuated VVT pulley which might develop an oil leak if you're very unlucky - However the tensioning bearing and water pump both have "sealed for life" bearings which can, and do, occasionally fail. The water pump is by far the most common, often due to the seal failing and then allowing coolant to wash the lubricant out followed shortly by the bearing failing. My advice would be to always do a water pump when renewing the timing belt (Many of the manufacturers now produce all in one kits which include the water pump and they wouldn't do that unless there was a big demand). The 1.2 from around 2011 onwards was an "interference" engine, (basically, if you've got a VVT cam sprocket then the engine is interference) so if the belt breaks or comes off the sprockets the valves and pistons will get catastrophically familiar with each other and you're looking at a substantial bill to sort it all out. By the way, unless the auxiliary (fan in old language) belt has been recently changed, get them to put a new one on when they are reassembling - the old one has got to be removed for access anyway so they should only charge you the price of the belt itself.

We have this FIRE based engine in both my Panda and our older boy's Punto. Our Panda only does a few thousand miles a year now we're retired and is non interference anyway being pre 2011. Our boy does more miles in his Punto, which does have the VVT pulley, around 8,000 yearly. So neither vehicle is doing high mileage. I keep a watch on them and once the vehicle in question has passed the 4 year mark since last renewal I mark it up for doing at some convenient time, and when weather permits, during the next year. Typically then I'm doing a belt change around every 4.5 to 5 years on either vehicle. Here's a good guide as to what the procedure entails https://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/belt-replacement-guide-fiat-500/ As cam belts go it's actually one of the simpler ones to do and most competent garages should find no problem doing it.

Just in case it's of interest. Not only Fiat incorporate the water pump into the cam belt drive train and I've done many of this type in my life. It's really very unusual to find a cam belt directly, and of itself, failing (unless it's been grossly wrongly tensioned when it was fitted) It's not at all unusual to find a bearing, either tensioner or water pump, considerably "under the weather" and, of the two, the water pump is much the more likely suspect.

You are speedy on the keyboard !

Thanks for your clear and long message back to me! Well aware the water pump needs changing with the cambelt, so happy with that. Just surprised as it’s low mileage, but as you say it’s easy to think that …

I’ll get onto changing it :)
 
Excellent thank you. I stand corrected in that case !

Dealership has quoted £399 for the cambelt and water pump change. They’ll obviously know what they’re doing but no harm in finding an independent Fiat specialist I guess. Plugs at £140. Air filter and pollen filter at £107.

"Dealership" being a main Fiat dealer? If so it might be worth looking into that price as my local dealer used menu pricing to give me a quote when I inquired - although I'd intended to do it myself from the outstart, I was just interested in what they'd charge. I forget what they quoted but it wasn't cheap - over £400 I think - and when I got them to break it down they'd just added together the menu price for the cam belt renewal and the menu price for doing a water pump, seemingly disregarding the fact that much of the work needed to do both jobs was identical. The combined waterpump/cam belt kits come in at around the £70 mark from my local factor or on the internet for a good quality make (Gates/SKF/DAYCO/etc) and I've seen them for less. I bought a Gates kit from these folk https://www.mister-auto.co.uk/search/?q=timing belt/water pump kit for my Panda and then another for the Punto thinking I'd saved a lot of money but later found my local trade factor was selling the exact same kit for less than a fiver more. My wee local indy Fiat people charges out two hours labour @ around £50 per hour (and I suspect he does them in less than that). Then you've got some sealant and coolant (you might as well renew the coolant) whole job for under £250 comfortably.

I buy service items from the factor and I run mine on standard "copper core" plugs which cost peanuts and I change them every second year in both cars with no issues. Same with filters, new oil filter every year when I change their oil @ around £5,50p for something like a Mahle, Bosch or NAPA and air every 2 years. Pollen filter every 2 years but I hate doing the Punto which is a real sod to fit. Last time round genuine NGK plugs @£2.41p each. NAPA air filter £4.81p and NAPA pollen filter £3.67 - all plus VAT. The NAPA brand is still quite new to the UK but they are very big in the US and I find them to be of good quality for everyday use. The only car in our family fleet of 6 cars which I run expensive plugs in is my Ibiza because it's got one of these wee highly stressed direct injection petrol engines and nothing else is recommended and I definitely don't want to give it any excuse to start messing me about with LSPI. Anyway the top of the plug where the HT connects from the individual coils is a unique design so it would be difficult to use anything else.
 
:rolleyes:399 for the belt + pump may seem a lot but not unreasonable given that it requires specialist knowledge and tools. + you get a warranty for the work done.
The prices for plugs and filters are silly though and those are not that difficult to change and little can go wrong.
Change the plugs yourself (get iridium ones), leave the air filter alone for another 5-10k miles and have the dealer do the belt and pump.
Just as a positive example (my Suzuki Vitara). I changed the cam belt after 20years and 120k km and it still looked good. Didnˋt touch the water pump. Now 10 years and 60k km later both are still doing fine.
Ok, it is a freewheeling engine and a Japanese car where nothing break anyway so the risk is low. But it shows that there is some safety margin built in. And I wonˋt try that on the 500 otherwise the missus will kill me ;)
 
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"Dealership" being a main Fiat dealer?

Correct.

But I don’t need to take it to a Fiat dealership or Fiat independent for changing the spark plugs, pollen filter or air filter surely? I could either do that myself or have my local garage action those.

Cambelt and water pump obviously more of a technical job for either the dealership or Fiat independent garage… I know one, so will ask them for a quote.
 
Correct.

But I don’t need to take it to a Fiat dealership or Fiat independent for changing the spark plugs, pollen filter or air filter surely? I could either do that myself or have my local garage action those.

Cambelt and water pump obviously more of a technical job for either the dealership or Fiat independent garage… I know one, so will ask them for a quote.
Absolutely. Unless you have a "reasonable" level of mechanical competence then the cam belt is going to be a workshop job, and with that comes the guarantee as well of course. However the filters and spark plugs are very "doable" for anyone with a bit of a tool kit and DIY level of competence.

The plugs can be a little tricky because they are to the rear of the engine and the HT leads can be slightly difficult to pull off the top of the plugs. Don't pull on the lead itself but pull on the end which fits over the plug otherwise you might just pull the lead itself out of it's molded rubber end. Also a magnetic spark plug socket, selection of extension bars and a ratchet handle (3/8 drive works well) make this job much easier. I wouldn't like to have to tackle it with one of those generic all in one spark plug tools.

Air filter is a doddle and pollen filter just requires a small amount of gymnastics and dextrous fingers.

Above all though I'd say only do it if, like me, you get enjoyment from doing this sort of thing. Otherwise why not just let the garage do it as it's going to be in with them for the belt anyway?
 
:rolleyes:399 for the belt + pump may seem a lot but not unreasonable given that it requires specialist knowledge and tools. + you get a warranty for the work done.
The prices for plugs and filters are silly though and those are not that difficult to change and little can go wrong.
Change the plugs yourself (get iridium ones), leave the air filter alone for another 5-10k miles and have the dealer do the belt and pump.
Just as a positive example (my Suzuki Vitara). I changed the cam belt after 20years and 120k km and it still looked good. Didnˋt touch the water pump. Now 10 years and 60k km later both are still doing fine.
Ok, it is a freewheeling engine and a Japanese car where nothing break anyway so the risk is low. But it shows that there is some safety margin built in. And I wonˋt try that on the 500 otherwise the missus will kill me ;)

£400 for s belt however is stupid Money for around 2-3 hours work and less then £100 in parts but then again it's about average for a main dealer
 
One good reason for getting a main dealer or Fiat specialist to do the cam belt is that sometimes, but by no means always, the angular relationship between the camshaft and crankshaft is very slightly different with the new belt fitted compared to the old one. In that case the engine ECU needs to be appraised of this new relationship otherwise it thinks something is wrong and will light up the MIL (engine check light) on the instrument cluster and log a fault code in the ECU. This is simple to rectify with suitable electronic equipment which a specialist, or main, dealer will have but a non specialist general workshop is unlikely to have. This operation is called a "Phonic Wheel Relearn". Just to further complicate the situation for the non specialist workshop - who may well not know about phonic wheel relearns - when they try to fault find this illuminated check engine light is that the fault code stored is often for a missfire and doesn't give any hint as to the actual reason. There have been posts on the forum about people spending considerable amounts of money trying to eliminate this "missfire", replacing spark plugs, coils, HT leads and investigating possible wiring faults in looms when all that was needed was a couple of minutes with Multiecuscan or the dealer electronic tool plugged in to sort it.
 
If it's only 5 years for the cambelt, will need to look at this too.

How is it to do on the 500?
 
Our cam belt was 7 years old when it got changed, the water pump is the original! eek 2009 95k
I put Iridium plugs in not quite sure how long they've been in(bought the car 6 years ago) cam belt will need doing next year again, plus the water pump.
I think the reliability if you don't change the water pump with the belt is a bit like Russian Roulette - It might last for absolutely ages, but it might not. In the words of Dirty Harry "do you (I) feel lucky? well do you punk?" (google it for a clip) I'm just too much of a feartie to risk it!
 
I think the reliability if you don't change the water pump with the belt is a bit like Russian Roulette - It might last for absolutely ages, but it might not. In the words of Dirty Harry "do you (I) feel lucky? well do you punk?" (google it for a clip) I'm just too much of a feartie to risk it!

It was an error of assumption on my part when I had the cam belt replaced by the Fiat dealer, I assumed they would replace the pump, the dealer didn't ask when I took it in upon collection I realized it had not been replaced, that said it only cost £215 for the belt.

Clint Eastwood I remember
 
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It was an error of assumption on my part when I had the cam belt replaced by the Fiat dealer, I assumed they would replace the pump, the dealer didn't ask when I took it in upon collection I realized it had not been replaced, that said it only cost £215 for the belt.

Clint Eastwood I remember

Although I'd always intended to do my own belt (inc water pump) I inquired of our main dealer as to what they would charge. It was only when I asked specifically if that price - similar to what you paid, maybe a little more actually - included the water pump that they told me no. They said they would only do the pump if it needed one and quoted almost as much again if the pump was needed.

It beats me how they can tell if the existing pump is going to last another 5 years though - definitely crystal ball stuff? and the price for the combined belt and water pump was just outrageous.
 
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