Technical Engine rattle

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Mmm fun job that! As it happens I have a new gasket as I was looking at changing my sump but I chickened out….. I’m worried about shearing bolts… is there really any way to tell if it’s really the manifold leaking? Or is it a only once your in there you see!?

You were talking about "having your listener on the rocker cover" (lovely old term that. Wonder how many youngsters would know what a rocker cover is these days?) So I'm wondering what your "listener" consists of? Here's a snap of my favourites:

In the middle are my two longer screwdrivers. Then, "looped" round them, is my "sexy" automotive stethoscope - granddaughter loves that - and then on the outside is my favourite listening tube - one of several. The stethoscope and screwdrivers are used in the same way (and actually the stethoscope is only marginally more effective than the screwdriver method) - pointy metal end placed firmly on the suspect component and then either the handle end of a screwdriver or the ear pieces of the stethoscope applied to the ear. Very good at pinpointing stuff like bearings in alternators, water pumps, aircon pumps, and a whole host of other stuff. The tube is used by stuffing one end in an ear and moving the open end around the suspect area, You don't hold it hard against anything like you do with the stethoscope or screwdrivers. The noise will get louder when you're near it's source. Sometimes, depending on the noise, I will start off with the tube and then, when I think I know where the noise is located, maybe try the stethoscope/screwdriver for further confirmation. If you've never tried a listening tube they are surprisingly effective.

The stethoscope/screwdrivers are pretty useless at finding stuff like a wee blow in an exhaust manifold gasket but the tube picks it up very well.

Just be careful not to get anything tangled up in rotating parts or belt drives will you.

 

[Baglady1990]

You were talking about "having your listener on the rocker cover" (lovely old term that. Wonder how many youngsters would know what a rocker cover is these days?) So I'm wondering what your "listener" consists of? Here's a snap of my favourites:

View attachment 407735

In the middle are my two longer screwdrivers. Then, "looped" round them, is my "sexy" automotive stethoscope - granddaughter loves that - and then on the outside is my favourite listening tube - one of several. The stethoscope and screwdrivers are used in the same way (and actually the stethoscope is only marginally more effective than the screwdriver method) - pointy metal end placed firmly on the suspect component and then either the handle end of a screwdriver or the ear pieces of the stethoscope applied to the ear. Very good at pinpointing stuff like bearings in alternators, water pumps, aircon pumps, and a whole host of other stuff. The tube is used by stuffing one end in an ear and moving the open end around the suspect area, You don't hold it hard against anything like you do with the stethoscope or screwdrivers. The noise will get louder when you're near it's source. Sometimes, depending on the noise, I will start off with the tube and then, when I think I know where the noise is located, maybe try the stethoscope/screwdriver for further confirmation. If you've never tried a listening tube they are surprisingly effective.

The stethoscope/screwdrivers are pretty useless at finding stuff like a wee blow in an exhaust manifold gasket but the tube picks it up very well.

Just be careful not to get anything tangled up in rotating parts or belt drives will you.

Like my hair having very long hair & working on or under a car does not mix! Especially when you get waxoyl in it!!!
No I do try and keep as safe as possible!
Yes that stethoscope is what I have except I’ve managed to loose the screw on extender! I have a few other bits I can use too though

Yes I’m going to investigate the manifold tomorrow & see if I can hear or see anything along with anything else I can reach I’m not 100% but I swear I can smell a faint whiff of fuel coming through my air vents and I definitely smell the same under the bonnet! It’s not terrible but I have keen senses when it comes to my car and I know when somethings off!

Obviously I’m still learning …and my car seems dead set on teaching me how to overcome new issues I’ve had a good run without any issues so I was due one!

My grandad used to tell me what all the car parts were and some of them stuck! Though I’m so glad I don’t have to deal with a choke or a carburettor

 

[vexorg]

Big screw driver to the ear is such a simple old trick that works so well - as long as you know what you are listening too.

The videos are a bit unclear, there's a sound like the exhaust badly leaking (like a small harley ticking over), and various other ticking and tapping, which is the problem for you?

 

[Baglady1990]

Big screw driver to the ear is such a simple old trick that works so well - as long as you know what you are listening too.

The videos are a bit unclear, there's a sound like the exhaust badly leaking (like a small harley ticking over), and various other ticking and tapping, which is the problem for you?

Yes that Harley noise is the one! You reckon it’s the exhaust?

 

[vexorg]

It's always hard to tell with phone recordings. Or any noises in general with cars. Usually nneeds crawling over and under the engine to find it.

Does it come and go, or is that just the phone position in the recording?
How does it change with engine load (aircon/lights) at idle? and revving the car?

Take off the airbox and try it for more space around to listen.
Exhaust leaks usually have telltale black marks at the leak. The exhaust is right at the front so room to get you hands in to feel for a leak (ignore me but I do feel the need to warn it will be hot)

 

[Baglady1990]

It's always hard to tell with phone recordings. Or any noises in general with cars. Usually nneeds crawling over and under the engine to find it.

Does it come and go, or is that just the phone position in the recording?
How does it change with engine load (aircon/lights) at idle? and revving the car?

Take off the airbox and try it for more space around to listen.
Exhaust leaks usually have telltale black marks at the leak. The exhaust is right at the front so room to get you hands in to feel for a leak (ignore me but I do feel the need to warn it will be hot)

As soon as I start the car it starts…. It’s not as bad if I switch off the aircon and almost disappears
Once I start to move it gets louder with revs even with aircon off
Once I’m moving say 50 secs or a minute the noise is completely gone & even with aircon on

So it seems the heat must be expanding metal somewhere and blocking the leak if it is something to do with the exhaust

I’m going to get under the car today and get looking
The sound is definitely front end engine area but like you said sound travels so could be coming from lower down than I thought

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

It's always hard to tell with phone recordings. Or any noises in general with cars. Usually nneeds crawling over and under the engine to find it.

Does it come and go, or is that just the phone position in the recording?
How does it change with engine load (aircon/lights) at idle? and revving the car?

Take off the airbox and try it for more space around to listen.
Exhaust leaks usually have telltale black marks at the leak. The exhaust is right at the front so room to get you hands in to feel for a leak (ignore me but I do feel the need to warn it will be hot)

It's a bit of a weird one isn't it. It has a slightly "rattly" quality to it. In some ways it reminds me of a slack timing chain? but we don't have a chain here. Doesn't sound particularly like a manifold or pipe joint blow to me though. I notice Chris is particularly concentrating on holding her 'phone around the back end/ bell housing area of the engine and, if that is where the noise is loudest I can only think of stuff like clutch release bearing/release arm and maybe gearbox input shaft bearing? However I'm a long way from being sure. As you say, this sort of thing is difficult to diagnose anyway but especially so when trying to do it from a distance with the likelihood of the noise being distorted by the phone and then reproduction of my laptop.

I can't wait to find out what it actually is!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Like my hair having very long hair & working on or under a car does not mix! Especially when you get waxoyl in it!!!
No I do try and keep as safe as possible!
Yes that stethoscope is what I have except I’ve managed to loose the screw on extender! I have a few other bits I can use too though

Yes I’m going to investigate the manifold tomorrow & see if I can hear or see anything along with anything else I can reach I’m not 100% but I swear I can smell a faint whiff of fuel coming through my air vents and I definitely smell the same under the bonnet! It’s not terrible but I have keen senses when it comes to my car and I know when somethings off!

Obviously I’m still learning …and my car seems dead set on teaching me how to overcome new issues I’ve had a good run without any issues so I was due one!

My grandad used to tell me what all the car parts were and some of them stuck! Though I’m so glad I don’t have to deal with a choke or a carburettor

Meant to comment on this but got distracted by your noise video.

Stethoscope extension - yes I lost this for a while as well. Screwed on "nice and tight" but it fell off on it's own again - probably should use something like loctite on it? I've never had the need to use it with the extension removed - usually I need it to be long so I can listen to something well buried in the depths of the engine bay.

Regarding your learning curve Chris, compared with your early posts, I'd say you're getting well up that curve now and you've done it in a remarkably short time. You're bound to run into stuff you find difficult, only time and exposure to it can help there, but I'd have killed to have a class full of students like you back in the years I instructed in this!

As far as Carburetors go, I feel much happier with sorting them out compared to fuel injection systems. A nice old SU, Solex or Zenith? luverly jubbly! Also had the advantage that if you flooded it, Choke back in, throttle to the floor and spin the engine over usually cleared it (Ok, auto chokes complicated this.) Seldom took much cash for parts either.

 

[vexorg]

if that is where the noise is loudest I can only think of stuff like clutch release bearing/release arm and maybe gearbox input shaft bearing?

It has a weirdness to the sound that I cant imagine anything in the bellhouse making, or wouldn't self desctruct very rapidly if making that noise. Does the 1.2 have a DMF?

I presume it has EGR or SAI, if it is exhaust releated then it could be something there broken or loose.

If it is a proper knock then and coming from inside the engine, there are quite a few disaster options.

Needs the air filter off and a good poke around to narrow it down..

 

[Baglady1990]

It has a weirdness to the sound that I cant imagine anything in the bellhouse making, or wouldn't self desctruct very rapidly if making that noise. Does the 1.2 have a DMF?

I presume it has EGR or SAI, if it is exhaust releated then it could be something there broken or loose.

If it is a proper knock then and coming from inside the engine, there are quite a few disaster options.

Needs the air filter off and a good poke around to narrow it down..

Well had a good poke under car with it running can’t see any sort of obvious soot or dark around manifold gasket though without taking it all off it’s hard to see
The exhaust itself is fine no leaks whatsoever

It’s very difficult to try find the source even under the car!! I’m still stumped
Yes had air box off and still no sense of where it’s coming from!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Dmf is a good call but I've never seen a 1.2 FIRE with one. Don't think the petrol has an EGR (ours doesn't) - come to that I don't think the FIRE in general uses EGR? The diesels have them though.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Well had a good poke under car with it running can’t see any sort of obvious soot or dark around manifold gasket though without taking it all off it’s hard to see
The exhaust itself is fine no leaks whatsoever

It’s very difficult to try find the source even under the car!! I’m still stumped
Yes had air box off and still no sense of where it’s coming from!

Very frustrating isn't it. Have you tried a listening pipe yet? it really does let you closely track down noises. Just move the open end around the engine bay and zero in on where the noise is loudest.

 

[Baglady1990]

Very frustrating isn't it. Have you tried a listening pipe yet? it really does let you closely track down noises. Just move the open end around the engine bay and zero in on where the noise is loudest.

I really have tried jock I’ve been all over the engine today and under it too and I still can’t track it down

Manifold? No signs if a leak I would expect soot but without getting right in there it’s difficult to tell my heat shield won’t come off unless I move the front frame slightly forward

Exhaust all in good order
Gearbox is making some noise as I’m sure it should but again nothing over the Top that would make me think ahhhh

Rocker cover again no noise
There is a high pitch sound coming from the throttle body … not the ticking but like a high pitch squeal but it’s very quiet?

I’ve spent most of the day on the car so I’m a bit tired annoyingly the sound goes away quickly so imagine trying to move the stethoscope very quickly around the engine

 

[Baglady1990]

I really have tried jock I’ve been all over the engine today and under it too and I still can’t track it down

Manifold? No signs if a leak I would expect soot but without getting right in there it’s difficult to tell my heat shield won’t come off unless I move the front frame slightly forward

Exhaust all in good order
Gearbox is making some noise as I’m sure it should but again nothing over the Top that would make me think ahhhh

Rocker cover again no noise
There is a high pitch sound coming from the throttle body … not the ticking but like a high pitch squeal but it’s very quiet?

I’ve spent most of the day on the car so I’m a bit tired annoyingly the sound goes away quickly so imagine trying to move the stethoscope very quickly around the engine

I think I’m going to have to get into manifold next week I can definitely smell fumes under bonnet fuel rail looks ok so I guess I’ll have to tackle those bolts ..get em plug gassed up a day before

 

[Baglady1990]

I’m going to remove fuel rail too and check seals just to be sure also while I was poking about there’s oil residue under the throttle body!? Is this an issue?

 

[Baglady1990]

This Is how my car sounds especially when accelerating

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

This Is how my car sounds especially when accelerating

Oooh! now that sounds much more like the classic manifold to head gasket leaking problem! If so you're not going to isolate that with the type of listening stick you have, you need a listening tube. Really Chris, please do try it, one end in your ear and move the open end around where the manifold meets the head as someone repeatedly blips the engine revs. As you can see it only makes the noise when the cylinder is firing under load so it'll be quiet on a trailing throttle, intermittent on a neutral throttle and noisy when the throttle is opened putting load on the engine. Don't burn your fingers though will you! What tube you use doesn't really matter, just needs to be long enough and not so massive in diameter that you can't manipulate it.

Of course it might be something to do with a downpipe or flange joint but I'm betting it's definitely exhaust - put myself on the line now haven't I!

 

[Baglady1990]

Oooh! now that sounds much more like the classic manifold to head gasket leaking problem! If so you're not going to isolate that with the type of listening stick you have, you need a listening tube. Really Chris, please do try it, one end in your ear and move the open end around where the manifold meets the head as someone repeatedly blips the engine revs. As you can see it only makes the noise when the cylinder is firing under load so it'll be quiet on a trailing throttle, intermittent on a neutral throttle and noisy when the throttle is opened putting load on the engine. Don't burn your fingers though will you! What tube you use doesn't really matter, just needs to be long enough and not so massive in diameter that you can't manipulate it.

Of course it might be something to do with a downpipe or flange joint but I'm betting it's definitely exhaust - put myself on the line now haven't I!

Will do jock though now I’ve found that exact clip it’s a pretty clear indication my gasket has failed .. my engine doesn’t sound as bad as that one though but the sound under revs is the same … rattly horrible noise plus I can smell fumes under the bonnet

I could kind of smell something in the car too a few days in a row with my a/c on … I wonder if that’s why I’ve had a sore throat!

I shall investigate further tomorrow I guess as I’m pretty tired … I’ve gone the long way around today … has given me a chance to check a lot though so it’s never a waste of time! And I am always quite careful jock I promise but thank you for the concern & the tips

 

[Baglady1990]

Will do jock though now I’ve found that exact clip it’s a pretty clear indication my gasket has failed .. my engine doesn’t sound as bad as that one though but the sound under revs is the same … rattly horrible noise plus I can smell fumes under the bonnet

I could kind of smell something in the car too a few days in a row with my a/c on … I wonder if that’s why I’ve had a sore throat!

I shall investigate further tomorrow I guess as I’m pretty tired … I’ve gone the long way around today … has given me a chance to check a lot though so it’s never a waste of time! And I am always quite careful jock I promise but thank you for the concern & the tips

Is it just the one gasket? I already have a replacement but just wanted to know if there was one on the cat?

 

[vexorg]

The one in that clip does appear to be missing some nuts and studs.

Pre-cat fumes can kill you, post-cat just give you more of a headache.
If you can get the heat shield off then it should be clear. Though not sure if the 500 has a cast manifold or not, you can get some pretty subtle cracks in the cast manifolds that leak and change with temperature.