Technical EGR valves, has yours failed?

[Pud237]

Last I heard the EGR valves were on back order from Italy (regarding Alfa Romeo). The fella involved just nipped across the road to Vauxhall and bought one from there as well, and it was cheaper!

 

[darrude]

It seems the valve normally sticks in the open position, so the turbo doesn't get quite as much exhaust flow as it should get, meaning that turbo lag feels worse. It usually feels more like an old-school turbo diesel - nothing, nothing, nothing, whoosh, rather than coming on boost more gently.

Fuel economy suffers too, as due to excess exhaust gas displacing oxygen in the cylinders, part of the fuel injected isn't burnt. This reduces the cars economy.

There is a lot of in-depth discussion of this over on AlfaOwner.com, this engine is also in the 147, 156, GT & new 159. A permanent fix is to clean out the EGR valve, so it is working freely, and then to cap it off at both ends. The ECU needs the EGR valve itself to be operating correctly or it throws up a code, but it cannot tell if no exhaust gasses are flowing past the valve. Car will still pass MOT emissions test although will be approx 10% more harmful emissions.

There are also "secondary swirl valves" in the inlet manifold, these close partially at low rpms and low load, to narrow the aperture for air entering into the cylinders - this increases its velocity, aiding volumetric efficiency. The same thing can happen with these valves, they can gunk up and jam up and cause the management to throw a hissy fit. This is happening in quite a few high mileage Vectras, which also have the same 1.9 16v diesel engine fitted, plus one or two Alfas.

Basically, what causes it is the soot from unburnt fuel mixing with oil mist that weeps through the turbo seals, back into the inlet tract. The oil weepage is normal, but long term it causes a sticky black tar-like substance that gunks up the inlet manifold. The amount that I scraped out of the inlet manifold of my old Alfa 2.4 JTD after 110k miles was shocking, you could have half-filled a Coke can with it :yuck:

Regular cleaning of the inlet manifold would hopefully prevent this from happening, but capping off the EGR pipe has to be the ideal solution IMO.

A good treatment of EcoTek Powerboost used to work wonders for my JTD, its like a fuel system cleaner but for the air intake, you spray it into the inlet manifold while the engine is running and it dissolves gunk and burns it. You can tell on the first run afterwards how much cack its cleared as the amount of smoke the car makes is shocking!

Hope my waffling on has helped some of you

I did exactly the same on my 2.4 alfa, just logged on to see if this would be a similar issue for my wife's bravo.

The tar on mine was about half an inch thick!

think I will block it completley by trapping a cut out from a coke can in it's way.

 

[scuba0576]

Wow, what a great post PUD... I take it that you are a mechanic of some description...??
I don't think I've ever seen a more descriptive post...:worship::worship:

One question ...is this Powerboost gear readily available, and if so where from ?? or is it only available to Trade ??

Cheers
Rob
:slayer:

 

[Pud237]

Google is your friend:

http://www.ecotek.eu/PowerBoost.htm

Hope this helps.


We have a few good tuners on AlfaOwner, they can apparently turn off the EGR valve's operation in the software. Should be possible with Fiats as well. :thumbsup:

 

[T14086]

but the EGR's there for a reason, emissions

 

[Kelvin W]

Hi guys

Bloody hell guys sounds like iv got another fault on my 150 multijet, the lag and lack of throttle response you speak of has slowly crept up on me. I have to think good and hard before pulling away into traffic ….. unless I give it plenty of revs also fuel economy isn’t the best in the world, but I do a great deal of short runs only covered 16000 in 21 months ……..I know I know should have chosen the petrol version!

Time to do battle with the dealers again what response did the members get when reporting the fault (much persuasion required to change the valve cause no fault codes will show up since it’s a mechanical device and to be fair its still working in a fashion)

Regards Kelvin

 

[T14086]

Each case should be taken individually, just because a few cars have a sticking EGR it doesn't mean they all have. A customer can scream to change the EGR all they want but until its checked & proven faulty I wont change it, unless the customer puts the cash up front (they never do) incase its not the EGR as garage will in this case be stuck with the expense.

 

[Pud237]

but the EGR's there for a reason, emissions

Basically the idea behind it is to reduce the average CO2 emissions per car of the Fiat Group, to comply with EU regs. It doesn't really serve a purpose in the car. It will open fully on the over-run though, acting a bit like a wastegate on a turbo. But from all the people I know that have blocked them off, none are suffering from boost creep on light throttle openings as the turbos are of the variable vane type, the ECU can just back off the vane angle slightly to allow the exhaust gasses to go more 'past' the turbo, rather than through it.

Sometimes its not the valve itself that sticks, but the solenoid that controls the valve. Cleaning the valve is not always enough to cure the problem, but you can clean the solenoid out also. Personally, when I get another JTD I will be cleaning the valve and solenoid to ensure it is working correctly, and then sealing off the EGR circuit at both ends. If I get round to it, I will also get it deactivated in the software. Causes more problems than its worth IMO.

 

[C62]

Possibly thee most retarded question ever posted on the FF so far buuut does the Turboless 1.4 Bravo (90) have an 'EGR Valve'!? Common sense says definetly not buuuut all the symptoms described in this thread of failed ERG valves are basically whats happened to my Bravo, although it might just be because its slow as...
Thanks in advance.
K.K.

 

[msdsx]

Hi Kelvin

I had the same problem as you, mine started with a couple of 'failed to pull away' blips followed by increasingly frequent power loss at other times as well.

Dealer was helpful but reluctant to change the EGR valve, no fault codes etc. They needed to 'prove' there was a problem before fixing it, great attitude, not.

In the end I got fed up and contacted FIAT customer care, told them about my problem, that I suspected from reading forums that it was the EGR valve and that it needed fixing before I had an accident.

Response was immediate. Dealer was on the phone straight away, couldn't be more helpful and the car was booked in for a few days for them to give it a thorough check over (with courtesy car supplied). Before it went in I had a power loss incident which also set the engine management light off. I took it straight to the dealer, they took it in immediately and changed the EGR valve.

My car is back to being the car I bought originally, completely cured.

FIAT were also on the phone a couple of times to make sure I was happy with what was being done. Can't fault the service from that point of view, exactly as you would want. In fact they were so helpful I almost felt guilty at making a fuss!

However, why don't FIAT just acknowledge the problem and recall it? Money I guess.

Issue is that someone is going to have a serious accident because of the EGR. It's OK when you get used to it but I had a very close shave with a bus when it first started, pulled out and... nothing. Lucky the bus driver was quick with the brake.

Good luck

 

[Hellcat]

I'd have to agree that these EGR valves are proving to be more troublesome on the newer cars than previous ones. Never had a problem with the EGR on the old JTDs, but come the multijets both me and my wife's multijet engined cars have had the EGR stick.

 

[gurjits]

Where can u pick one of this EGR valves? Any internet sites that sell this stuff?

 

[T14086]

Basically the idea behind it is to reduce the average CO2 emissions per car of the Fiat Group, to comply with EU regs. It doesn't really serve a purpose in the car.

Thanks but i'm aware of the operations of a EGR and its primary use is to reduce NOX gasses, blanking of a EGR will just result in a increase of unburnt NOX gasses which as you are no doubt aware is extremely harmful.

Personally I think the police (as they do in the states) should check the EOBD systems on a regular basis after all we all breathe the same air.....dont we?

 

[Pud237]

Thanks but i'm aware of the operations of a EGR and its primary use is to reduce NOX gasses, blanking of a EGR will just result in a increase of unburnt NOX gasses which as you are no doubt aware is extremely harmful.

Personally I think the police (as they do in the states) should check the EOBD systems on a regular basis after all we all breathe the same air.....dont we?

Fair point mate, it will increase NOX emissions and yes they are harmful. Unfortunately the police don't have the time or resources to emissions-check vehicles on the road, as I think you'd find a lot would probably fail, especially older cars. Plus the amount of taxis I see puffing out obscene amounts of soot is a joke. But in my mind, blanking off an EGR valve is no worse than buying a hot petrol version anyway, we all know how much emissions they give off, or having your diesel remapped to be a tyre-squealing smoke monster. A blanked off EGR valve on a healthy car doing 50mpg is better than a stuck open one on a gutless and frankly dangerous one, which'll only do 30mpg to boot. Anyway its a bit of a moot point as I don't even own a diesel, well other than a V-reg Mondeo (EGR system working fine after 152k miles)..

Anyway, here's a nice little guide from the Vauxhall boys on fixing the 1.9 JTD EGR valve problem, hope it comes in handy for some of you:

http://www.vectra-c.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45867

 

[wideboydave]

Hi there, just thought I'd have a check on your forum to see if you lot have been having the same problem... I've just taken my Astra 1.9 (150) to the dealers to get them to take a look... it's done 42k and is 2months out of the three year warranty.

The car has been great for the year or so we've owned it, but in the last week, it felt like really bad turbo lag and one day, I started her up and she was struggling to find an idle rev and belching out plumes of smoke... eventually got away (once I put my foot down and above 3000rpm, she was off like a trooper again)...

I first took it to my local mechanic who came up with the P2279 fault code (no idea if it is the same for Fiats/Alfas) and as he had no idea what this meant he contacted Vauxhall who told him it would be 5hrs of labour and over £400 of parts (egr, inlet manifold, etc, etc)... he just handed back the keys and said that he wouldn't charge as I was gonna get a huge bill from VX!

Took it to VX yesterday and after an hour, they rang me up and said that it just needed a new egr and that VX would pay 70% of parts and fitting labour... still paying full whack for the hour of diagnosis (which included telling me I need new tyres and brake pads... it's just had a service and I know! stop looking at the rest of the car and concentrate on the job at hand! hmph!:bang Anyway, it's coming to around £200 with the VX warranty on new parts.

If they were going to charge me the ridiculous amount (ie nearly £1000), I'd have done it myself as the Astra owners network forum say it is a 25min job for even an idiot with cars D) and a new egr on ebay can be got pretty cheaply... I saw one for £65. I'm tempted to do the blanking thing though... I noticed somewhere on one of the VX forums that Fiat do a special gasket for these valves which are around 90% blanked (ie have a smal hole drilled in the centre, rather than just the surround)... anyone got any experience with these?

In case anyone is interested in the Astra forums take on this problem: http://www.astraownersnetwork.co.uk/showthread.php?t=65838

 

[Caravadossi]

... I noticed somewhere on one of the VX forums that Fiat do a special gasket for these valves which are around 90% blanked (ie have a smal hole drilled in the centre, rather than just the surround)... anyone got any experience with these?

Take a look in Croma section. I had a Vauxhall unit fitted to mine.

Take care as the EGRs & gaskets are different for 8v & 16v engines.

 

[JFL]

mine went at about 23k/just over 2 years old.... id been driving like a granny for a few thousand miles before that to eek every bit of economy out... averaging 55+mpg each tank...

now i just drive it normall and dont see any less then 51mpg

 

[STILO NEWBIE]

Mine went at 60k, didn't noticed any drop of performance, just a check engine light on the dash, went to the dealer and they said the EGR valve need to be replace, all FOC, well fair enough apart from I have to drive the 1.2 GP for a week (some other job need to be done and waitiing for parts.) got the car back after a week and WTH!!! car feels like a rocket!!! I thought Fiat remapped my car for me!!! anyway, i'm sure it was a combination of new EGR valve and I have been driving the under-power 1.2 GP for so long!!!

 

[scuba0576]

Almost three years old - 65k miles - Fault light on Dash - Dealer says 'New EGR Valve needed', OK says I, FOC-Warranty ?? - NO says dealer too many miles - £200 Please... !!!
Looks like the three year warranty advertised by Fiat has a Caveat !!!
Not Happy ......... in fact WELL pi55ed off !!!

 

[SpencerUk]

My 08 plate 1.9 120 active sport has just done 18k (I got it Jan with 13k on) and EGR hasn't gone yet.