Technical Egr delete ... The easy way.

[Sweetsixteen]

The Panda 169 has a two part front grille.

The top part lets in air that feeds the inlet manifold, via the air cleaner. This shouldn't be covered.

The lower part, under the bumper, feeds air to the radiator and engine bay. I have blanked off this lower part by fitting a piece of rigid plastic (bit cut from old estate agents sale board!). It isn't noticeable, because I have painted it matt black with blackboard paint.

This does not stop all air getting to the radiator. It stops a good amount, and it also stops cold air rushing straight through and around the engine and ancilliaries. The car warms up quicker, but never overheats.

UK cars are always overcooled, because Manufacturers build cars for the hottest climates and tough conditions. I used to export UK cars and sell them to places where temperatures reached over 40 degrees, and some had the grilles blanked as above. The engine cooling systems never gave trouble.

As far as the egr always staying partly open, this does not apply to every vehicle. Most egr systems now will default to the closed position, unless they are gummed up with gunk.

 

[g8rpi]

The EGR will always partly stay open, unless it's blanked with special blanking plates. (Ebay).
Best way is to have the EGR deleted by a chiptuner, and have it blanked as well.

That's bit of a blanket statement, can you justify it?
All the EGR's I've seen (that includes vacuum and electrically operated, petrol and diesel and going back to the early 80's) completely close when the electrical supply or vacuum is disconnected.


I do agree that if you must delete the EGR (usual disclaimer, it's illegal to do this on a road car) on a car that gives a failure if you just blank it, then an ECU change is required. The "easy way" of interconnecting the EGR control and MAF signal just messes up the mixture and who knows what else.


Robert G8RPI.

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

It will stay open to about 1-5%, designed to do so by the manufacturer, in case of any malfunctioning of the EGR...
( ...and to keep Greenpeace happy... )

 

[g8rpi]

It will stay open to about 1-5%, designed to do so by the manufacturer, in case of any malfunctioning of the EGR...
( ...and to keep Greenpeace happy... )

And your evidence for this is?


This link gives a good description of EGR operation and the various valve types and in all cases says it's closed when off e.g. with a cold engine.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/egr.htm


Robert G8RPI.

 

[MountainRunner]

The EGR will always partly stay open, unless it's blanked with special blanking plates. (Ebay).
Best way is to have the EGR deleted by a chiptuner, and have it blanked as well.

Even with the EGR staying partially open (whether or not it's deleted) then if I delete without blanking plates should I get my normal MPG back?

I'm currently only getting about 34mpg when I should get 48-50 urban and over 65 extra urban.

 

[MountainRunner]

That's bit of a blanket statement, can you justify it?
All the EGR's I've seen (that includes vacuum and electrically operated, petrol and diesel and going back to the early 80's) completely close when the electrical supply or vacuum is disconnected.


I do agree that if you must delete the EGR (usual disclaimer, it's illegal to do this on a road car) on a car that gives a failure if you just blank it, then an ECU change is required. The "easy way" of interconnecting the EGR control and MAF signal just messes up the mixture and who knows what else.


Robert G8RPI.

But if you simply disconnect the control cable to the EGR solenoid and do nothing with the MAF sensor then would that affect the mixture?

Also is there the remote possibility that it could be a faulty MAF sensor that's giving me an EGR fault code (P0401) when my EGR could be perfectly ok?
I suppose if after disconnecting my EGR there is no improvement in performance and MPG then it could indicate a MAF sensor fault.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

First, unplug the Maf, as a test. Easiest to do - right at the front of the engine.
If the engine then runs more sweetly, then you have a faulty Maf. If it's no different, then the Maf is fine. You'll get a eml when you do it, but that is easily cleared with the most basic scanner.

I wouldn't think either a faulty Maf or a dodgy egr is the cause of your poor fuel consumption. Look elsewhere first.

My Multijet consumption went to 57mpg from mid 60's. It turned out that my front pads were not completely returning when I released the footbrake. I removed the pads and found that they were fractionally oversize, so I ground them to size and fuel usage is now much better.
Not saying that's your problem, but it illustrates what else could cause poor fuel usage.

When did you last change your air filter? A clogged air filter would badly affect fuel consumption. Any kind of exhaust restriction would also do the same thing.

 

[MountainRunner]

First, unplug the Maf, as a test. Easiest to do - right at the front of the engine.
If the engine then runs more sweetly, then you have a faulty Maf. If it's no different, then the Maf is fine. You'll get a eml when you do it, but that is easily cleared with the most basic scanner.

I wouldn't think either a faulty Maf or a dodgy egr is the cause of your poor fuel consumption. Look elsewhere first.

My Multijet consumption went to 57mpg from mid 60's. It turned out that my front pads were not completely returning when I released the footbrake. I removed the pads and found that they were fractionally oversize, so I ground them to size and fuel usage is now much better.
Not saying that's your problem, but it illustrates what else could cause poor fuel usage.

When did you last change your air filter? A clogged air filter would badly affect fuel consumption. Any kind of exhaust restriction would also do the same thing.

The rear exhaust silencer is a bit corroded perhaps its leaking? I'm getting a new silencer soon. But I will also check the air filter and fuel filter. I know neither filters have been changed since I bought the car in mid 2014 and don't know if they were changed before this.
What is the life expectancy of an air filter and does it look discoloured if its clogged and needs replacing? Hopefully this is the culprit.


It makes sense that the EGR might not be causing my bad MPG, the code is P0401 or insufficient recirculation flow suggesting that the valve is not opening enough as opposed to EGR stuck open.

 

[Peter Pick-Up]

Air and fuel filters on a Multijet/ JTD: change every 12.5000mls.
As the JTD/ MultiJetsystem is developed by FPT (Fiat Power Train) and Bosch, I only use Bosch filters.

www.mister-auto.co.uk

 

[Moimo]

I own a 1.6 mjet GP and these threads always concern me, i have MES and a sound engineering knowledge, I've had no issues and do everything myself, cambelt, oil changes and the only major event being the inlet manifold gaskets. The more I read, the more I learn what a complex beast lurks under there, I also mainly do short journeys but stretch its legs as required, my car has proved bullet proof, good oil, right specs, annual changes, 5 year belt and it responds brilliantly. 120bhp family car, cheap tax, amazing economy. Keep up the informative threads.

 

[Blue58]

the cause of p0401 fault code is egr valve sticking in housing, found this out with my own panda mjet.since freeing it off no more p0401 code. Seems if valve sticks and actuator cannot move it it trips the eml light. Hope this helps.

 

[irc]

the cause of p0401 fault code is egr valve sticking in housing, found this out with my own panda mjet.since freeing it off no more p0401 code. Seems if valve sticks and actuator cannot move it it trips the eml light. Hope this helps.

Same here, was full of crud. Fixed after cleanout, although it failed again after a few months, so went through the pain of replacing it with a new one. Wasn't too crudded up the second time but valve didn't operate any more.
Guess the actuator may have got weakened when it was full of crud and gave up completely at first sign of it happening again.
Too much of a pain for me to do that job more than once, so I went for a new one straight away on the next multijet.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

I've had no issues and do everything myself, cambelt, oil changes and the only major event being the inlet manifold gaskets. The more I read, the more I learn what a complex beast lurks under there.

Sounds like you're doing everything right.

Although the Multijet may seem complex compared to engines of, say, twenty years ago, it is in fact a very simple modern turbo diesel.

I have another diesel, and the electronics on that one are an absolute nightmare. At the moment I have an ESP (Electronic Stability Program) malfunction. Surefire Mot failure. This could be caused by wheel speed sensors (four), tyre pressure monitors (also four), steering angle sensor, brake sensor, acceleration sensor, yaw rate sensor, abs sensor, auto gearbox sensor - and more. Any one of these, or the Can bus interconnection between them, can trigger this malfunction. It has taken me two months so far to begin to narrow it down - even using the correct dedicated scanner!

And latest model cars are even more complex. There's a lot to be said for a complete rethink on car electronics. Back to basics might be a sensible first step.

 

[mankam]

Hi all, the CIRCUIT in first page have change the Diode opposite direction?

 

[mankam]

Ok a make this CIRCUIT in Grande punto sporting 1.3 multijet 66kw.
I start the engine with multiecuscan connected and i take ERROR: MAF SIGNAL.
The only different I make in this Circuit is the Diode, i fitted in opposite direction ( Based in bogo78 post in second page.)

The MAF sensor have 4pin and the egr plug 2 pin in use.

Start the engine in idle and a make measurement whith plug on MAF (unsnap the top of the plug).
the first pin from the left shown 14,20 volt
the second pin 0v
the third pin 3.14v
the four pin 2.60v

I decided to connect the MAF four pin (2.60v) with Wire No 4 in CIRCUIT

In EGR plug the first BL/R wire shows 12 volt Connected with No 1 Wire CIRCUIT
the second G/R 3v Connected with No 2 Wire CIRCUIT

Any idea what was wrong?

 

[g8rpi]

Ok a make this CIRCUIT in Grande punto sporting 1.3 multijet 66kw.
I start the engine with multiecuscan connected and i take ERROR: MAF SIGNAL.
The only different I make in this Circuit is the Diode, i fitted in opposite direction ( Based in bogo78 post in second page.)

The MAF sensor have 4pin and the egr plug 2 pin in use.

Start the engine in idle and a make measurement whith plug on MAF (unsnap the top of the plug).
the first pin from the left shown 14,20 volt
the second pin 0v
the third pin 3.14v
the four pin 2.60v

I decided to connect the MAF four pin (2.60v) with Wire No 4 in CIRCUIT

In EGR plug the first BL/R wire shows 12 volt Connected with No 1 Wire CIRCUIT
the second G/R 3v Connected with No 2 Wire CIRCUIT

Any idea what was wrong?

Hi,
This whole circuit is a bodge and will affect the mixture and emissions. Just because someone has found component values that work in their car does not mean the same values will work in another car, even the same model. Depending on engine and sensor variation from car to car you may need different values even if the basic theory was valid. If you must delete the EGR (and thus make the car illegal for road use) at least get the ECU re-mapped for non EGR. Try the restrictor / swirl plate first.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[mankam]

Thank's for the reply

 

[puntofato]

For anyone who is interested in deleting the useless valve you can check out my video.



A cheap product for this job.

 

[chris3234]

Another important consideration is if you have a dpf equipped diesels disabling the egr valve will likely cause issues with the dpf clogging faster then normal

 

[DaveMcT]

The DPF need the whole upstream system to be working correctly because any faults will increase smoke and clog the DPF more quickly.

If you suspect the DPF is faulty, first get a good look inside the inlet manifold. Car diesels driven gently and never given a clean-out run will collect carbon in the inlet manifold. The air flow restriction leads to smoke and DPF problems.