Technical Ducato 2.3 JTD starts but won't run

[peugeot504]

Hello all,

I currently have the campervan of my parents-in-law over for a quick check. It's a Ducato 2.3 JTD from 2003 (which has the Iveco F1AE0481C engine). My parents-in-law had the issue that most of the days the engine would start and run fine, and some days it just wouldn't run. The starter motor would go, but the engine would not run. Their regular mechanic has looked at it and it always started without an issue when the van was in the workshop.

My father-in-law brought the van in my workshop (he drove it here, so it was running), but since then the van has refused to run (or, only one time, see below). Starter motor indeed spins fine, but the engine just cranks without picking up and running.

What has been checked:
- Battery is one year old and still fine, battery terminal connections are good
- Alternator is one year old
- There is diesel coming from the return pipe of the injectors when cranking
- Glow plugs do not come on (but that might very well be temperature related)
- Glow plugs have been tested and work fine.
- Glow plug relay has been replaced, did not help.
- Glow plug relay receives a solid 12V
- My cheap OBD could not find any issues
- There are no weird indicator lights on the dashboard. The 'lock' light goes out directly after inserting the key, the glow light goes off after 1 second.

In a desperate move, I called roadside assistance. They managed to read out the van a bit more, with a better OBD reader. Turns out there is an issue with the immobiliser, but he couldn't exactly pinpoint the issue, since his system wouldn't show more details. The mechanic managed to erase all errors, after which the van started without hesitation. He also read out the performance of the high pressure diesel pump, which was perfectly fine.

When I came back the other day, hoping to be able to start the van to visit a Fiat dealer for a proper readout, I was back to square one: the van wouldn't run. I have pulled out the transponder ring around the lock to see if it was dirty. It was a bit dusty, and when the ring was removed from around the lock, it would directly show the lock indicator on the dashboard, telling me that this system is still working as it should.

Right now I am a bit on the edge of my capabilities and tools, since it appears to be in the realm of the electronic gubbins for which I don't have the proper tools.

I have a couple of questions:
- Is there a way to reset the ECU, the way the roadside mechanic did, without an expensive OBD reader?
- Would it help if I test starting with the spare key? (If so, I need to look that up)
- I read something about a Fiat Code, which allows you to start the van without a functioning key. Could that bypass the issue I have with the immobiliser (since the transponder ring seems to be working fine, so it does not appear to be an issue with the recognition of the key)
- Do you have any other suggestions for tests?

Thanks in advance!!

 

[AnthonyH]

- Is there a way to reset the ECU, the way the roadside mechanic did, without an expensive OBD reader?

No. You need to buy a copy of Multiecuscan and buy the obd connection cables, probably £80 minimum.

- Would it help if I test starting with the spare key? (If so, I need to look that up)

Yes. If the vehicle starts 100% of the time with the spare key, its the main key thats the problem.

- I read something about a Fiat Code, which allows you to start the van without a functioning key. Could that bypass the issue I have with the immobiliser (since the transponder ring seems to be working fine, so it does not appear to be an issue with the recognition of the key)

There is no bypass for the immobiliser. The Fiat Code allows you to make new keys.

 

[Communicator]

There is no bypass for the immobiliser. The Fiat Code allows you to make new keys.

I am sorry but that is entirely inncorrect. The physical key code, and immobiliser emergency code where issued by Fiat with new vehicles. It is my understanding that this code card was not issued in the UK, at the request of the UK insurers Thatcham centre. (I wish that I had known about the code card when I bought my Ducato in 2006.) I doubt that Fiat will have retained code details for older vehicles. and no doubt there would be a charge for issuiing it. Also more reasonably proof of ownership would be required.
If the key code can be obtained, there is a protracted procedure for using it in the Owners Handbook. The book only mentions petrol engines, but the code also works on diesel engines.

 

[Communicator]

Hello all,

I currently have the campervan of my parents-in-law over for a quick check. It's a Ducato 2.3 JTD from 2003 (which has the Iveco F1AE0481C engine). My parents-in-law had the issue that most of the days the engine would start and run fine, and some days it just wouldn't run. The starter motor would go, but the engine would not run. Their regular mechanic has looked at it and it always started without an issue when the van was in the workshop.

My father-in-law brought the van in my workshop (he drove it here, so it was running), but since then the van has refused to run (or, only one time, see below). Starter motor indeed spins fine, but the engine just cranks without picking up and running.

What has been checked:
- Battery is one year old and still fine, battery terminal connections are good
- Alternator is one year old
- There is diesel coming from the return pipe of the injectors when cranking
- Glow plugs do not come on (but that might very well be temperature related)
- Glow plugs have been tested and work fine.
- Glow plug relay has been replaced, did not help.
- Glow plug relay receives a solid 12V
- My cheap OBD could not find any issues
- There are no weird indicator lights on the dashboard. The 'lock' light goes out directly after inserting the key, the glow light goes off after 1 second.

In a desperate move, I called roadside assistance. They managed to read out the van a bit more, with a better OBD reader. Turns out there is an issue with the immobiliser, but he couldn't exactly pinpoint the issue, since his system wouldn't show more details. The mechanic managed to erase all errors, after which the van started without hesitation. He also read out the performance of the high pressure diesel pump, which was perfectly fine.

When I came back the other day, hoping to be able to start the van to visit a Fiat dealer for a proper readout, I was back to square one: the van wouldn't run. I have pulled out the transponder ring around the lock to see if it was dirty. It was a bit dusty, and when the ring was removed from around the lock, it would directly show the lock indicator on the dashboard, telling me that this system is still working as it should.

Right now I am a bit on the edge of my capabilities and tools, since it appears to be in the realm of the electronic gubbins for which I don't have the proper tools.

I have a couple of questions:
- Is there a way to reset the ECU, the way the roadside mechanic did, without an expensive OBD reader?
- Would it help if I test starting with the spare key? (If so, I need to look that up)
- I read something about a Fiat Code, which allows you to start the van without a functioning key. Could that bypass the issue I have with the immobiliser (since the transponder ring seems to be working fine, so it does not appear to be an issue with the recognition of the key)
- Do you have any other suggestions for tests?

Thanks in advance!!

I accept that your electrical capabilities are limited.
It is my understanding that it is the code receiver under the steering column, that contols the code (padlock) warning light. The ECU and code receiver communicate with each other.

I am wondering if the connection between the ECU, and the code receiver is failing. I have cured key recognition failures on my 2006 2.8jtd by reseating the connectors at the code receiver and using contact cleaner. You may wish to try this before proceeding further.

I have also read of the wires connecting the code receiver becoming faulty. This would require a resistance check between the ECU, and the code receiver, which you may decide not to attempt.

See earlier post for emergency code.

 

[AnthonyH]

If the key code can be obtained, there is a protracted procedure for using it in the Owners Handbook. The book only mentions petrol engines, but the code also works on diesel engines.

The fiat code for many Fiats is printed on the barrel of the ignition. I've only ever read this on the internet so can't confirm with certainty.

 

[peugeot504]

Thanks for all your replies. I already came across the part in the owner's manual (which is in French....) that mentions that starting the engine with the emergency code is only for petrol engines, but it's good to know that it also works with diesels.

I just learned that the engine always starts when it's towed, which already helps a bit.

About the electrical stuff, it's not so much that I don't understand it but more that I only have a voltmeter and a rubbish OBD reader that barely manages to spit out error codes. Since this is probably the most modern car I ever worked on I did not yet feel the need to invest in a proper OBD reader.

As I mentioned, I already disassembled the steering column covers and pulled off the transponder ring from around the ignition barrel and let it hang aside. When I then put in the key and put it on contact, the 'padlock' indicator on the dashboard came on directly. After putting the transponder ring back it went out immediately. This makes me assume that the connection between ECU and transponder ring is working, and that the transponder ring itself is in good nick as well. Or do you mean that the code receiver is connected to the dashboard indicator light, the transponder ring and the ECU? And that the absence of the padlock indicator misleads me in thinking everything is ok, while it's the connection between code receiver and ECU that's failing?

I have asked the owners if they have the spare key, and perhaps also the emergency code. Let's see what it brings. I'm afraid I won't get much further without a proper diagnostics tool...

 

[jackwhoo]

If it always starts when towed with the code light off then the code light is telling the truth.

The ecu will not inject fuel unless the fuel rail pressure is over a threshold value.
Tow starting may be turning the engine over quickly enough to get the fuel rail pressure high enough(over the threashold)for the ecu to trigger injection and start engine.

Find out if there is an electric pump in the fuel tank-check it works. Fuel filter ok?

Injectors leak back test?

After that you will need to find a way to connect to ecu and read live data. Start by checking rail pressure when turning over on starter motor.

Ask on here or search forum about multi ecu scan software , interface and connector leads.

 

[Communicator]

The fiat code for many Fiats is printed on the barrel of the ignition. I've only ever read this on the internet so can't confirm with certainty.

Yes there are matching codes on the barrel and key, but it is my understanding that they relate to the type of key blank.

 

[Communicator]

Thanks for all your replies. I already came across the part in the owner's manual (which is in French....) that mentions that starting the engine with the emergency code is only for petrol engines, but it's good to know that it also works with diesels.

I just learned that the engine always starts when it's towed, which already helps a bit.

About the electrical stuff, it's not so much that I don't understand it but more that I only have a voltmeter and a rubbish OBD reader that barely manages to spit out error codes. Since this is probably the most modern car I ever worked on I did not yet feel the need to invest in a proper OBD reader.

As I mentioned, I already disassembled the steering column covers and pulled off the transponder ring from around the ignition barrel and let it hang aside. When I then put in the key and put it on contact, the 'padlock' indicator on the dashboard came on directly. After putting the transponder ring back it went out immediately. This makes me assume that the connection between ECU and transponder ring is working, and that the transponder ring itself is in good nick as well. Or do you mean that the code receiver is connected to the dashboard indicator light, the transponder ring and the ECU? And that the absence of the padlock indicator misleads me in thinking everything is ok, while it's the connection between code receiver and ECU that's failing?

I have asked the owners if they have the spare key, and perhaps also the emergency code. Let's see what it brings. I'm afraid I won't get much further without a proper diagnostics tool...

That was my thinking, but @jackwhoo 's suggestion of low fuel pressure also fits with the known data, except the initial suggestion by your roadside assistance that it was a code problem.

 

[peugeot504]

A quick update from my side: we've ultimately tow-started the van and driven it to a garage which had the original FIAT computer for reading out and resetting the computer. Turned out to be a malfunctioning TDC-sensor, which none of the other readers was able to pick up. With a new sensor, the vans starts without any issue.

Thanks again for all your help!