Technical Complete power steering loss

[cnikonpete]

My power steering fault light came on and I lost all steering assistance just as I was negotiating a sweeping left hand bend.
I tried switching off for a few minutes but the light comes back on almost straight away, I have cleared the earth lead, checked battery voltage and alternator is charging at 14.2 volts. (The alternator was brand new before buying car)
I have tried turning the wheel to full lock,and cannot hear the motor.
I haven’t got any workshop or owners manual, I am assuming the light wouldn’t come on if the fuse had blown??
I haven’t charged the battery yet, but am doubtful that will help as the cranking speed is excellent .
Unfortunately I also don’t have access to a scanner.

 

[the green vanper]

Hello,

Can you please add to the year and engine / model of your car? That should make things easier

 

[cnikonpete]

Hello,

Can you please add to the year and engine / model of your car? That should make things easier

2009 Fiat Panda 1.1 active

 

[koalar]

Do you know why the alternator was changed

How old is the battery

Is the car used daily, weekly, does it ever sit not started for more than a week

At this time of year as the weather gets colder, we see an increase in electric power steering faults, Especially after the car stood over night

The vast majority are battery related, it's hard to test unless they are completely dead,

I see you have a multimeter

You can do a quick and dirty test but it's not 100%

Switch the engine off, or don't start the car

Remove any surface charge by switching the ignition on and put the headlights on for 2 minutes

Switch the ignition off, measure across the battery terminals

It does depend on make of battery, temperature at 10C I'd expect 12.6V on an new battery and 12.7V in summer,

The only reliable test for most people though is as in post 1 by substitution of a different battery, unfortunately not everybody has a second vehicle to swap

 

[cnikonpete]

Do you know why the alternator was changed

How old is the battery

Is the car used daily, weekly, does it ever sit not started for more than a week

At this time of year as the weather gets colder, we see an increase in electric power steering faults, Especially after the car stood over night

The vast majority are battery related, it's hard to test unless they are completely dead,

I see you have a multimeter

You can do a quick and dirty test but it's not 100%

Switch the engine off, or don't start the car

Remove any surface charge by switching the ignition on and put the headlights on for 2 minutes

Switch the ignition off, measure across the battery terminals

It does depend on make of battery, temperature at 10C I'd expect 12.6V on an new battery and 12.7V in summer,

The only reliable test for most people though is as in post 1 by substitution of a different battery, unfortunately not everybody has a second vehicle to swap

The alternator was replace prior to me buying it,no idea why. I could try the battery voltage, I did measure it,but have forgotten already,it was about 12.5 volts. I didn’t drain the battery prior to checking though.

 

[the green vanper]

Do you know why the alternator was changed

How old is the battery

Is the car used daily, weekly, does it ever sit not started for more than a week

At this time of year as the weather gets colder, we see an increase in electric power steering faults, Especially after the car stood over night

The vast majority are battery related, it's hard to test unless they are completely dead,

I see you have a multimeter

You can do a quick and dirty test but it's not 100%

Switch the engine off, or don't start the car

Remove any surface charge by switching the ignition on and put the headlights on for 2 minutes

Switch the ignition off, measure across the battery terminals

It does depend on make of battery, temperature at 10C I'd expect 12.6V on an new battery and 12.7V in summer,

The only reliable test for most people though is as in post 1 by substitution of a different battery, unfortunately not everybody has a second vehicle to swap

The starter motor will definitely draw more from the battery than the power steering motor. If the cranking speed is OK I think we can say the battery is not that weak. However testing a battery with a load tester is a good option to be sure it's in good shape not only for this problem.

Looking at the Power steering system in MultiEcuScan I can see at least two sensors (steering column position sensor / torque sensor), which should also be checked. Strange that they are not mentionned in the description below.

Taken from the online eLearn:

Operational description

The electric steering control unit M086 receives a power supply directly from the battery, at connector A pin A, through the line protected by fuse F05. It is connected directly to the battery earth A001 connector C from pin B of the same connector.

It receives an ignition-operated supply from the line protected by fuse F24 at pin 1 connector B.

The electric steering control unit M086 is connected, from pins 5, 10 connector B, via the CAN, to the body computer node M001.

Operational description

The following signals are acquired by the electric steering control unit M086:

vehicle speed: the signal is taken via the CAN and is used by the control unit to strengthen or provide power assistance for the steering depending on the vehicle speed;

Operational description

The following signals are acquired by the electric steering control unit M086:

engine ignition: the signal is supplied by the alternator (D+ signal) to confirm that the engine has been started;

engagement of City function: the signal is sent by the special switch housed in the control unit H090 ;

The electric steering control unit M086 controls the lighting up of the "system failure" warning light inside the instrument panel E050, sending the command via the B-CAN to the body computer node M001.

The electric steering control unit is connected, from pin 4 connector B, to the diagnostic socket R010.


Earth C020 is secured to the passenger compartment floor and is positioned near the right front wheel arch (footwell area).

Elements location:

Wiring diagram:

And the description of the components codes:

 

[Zardo]

The alternator was replace prior to me buying it,no idea why. I could try the battery voltage, I did measure it,but have forgotten already,it was about 12.5 volts. I didn’t drain the battery prior to checking though.

Hi, without a code, it's difficult to identify the problem.

I had an alternator fault and the battery wasn't charging anymore. This did not immediately result in a loss of power steering. The battery was rather old already, but charging it at home would allow for a 5 min drive, after which the battery voltage descended below 12.0 Volts which triggerd the shut-down of the power steering (on a Punto Evo). So I bought a 10 W solar panel and connected it to the battery in order to extend the driving time with power steering. After waiting for a sunny day, this allowed me to drive to the garage which was 1/2 hours drive away, without the loss of the power steering, and whilst I monitored the battery voltage continously.

So yes, too low a battery voltage will result in the loss of power steering. But if I remember correctly, the fault clears itself after several "Key on" events once the battery voltage is sufficiently high.

In your case, it seems the voltage is sufficiently high. Therefore, finding the fault could be more complicated. Read the fault with an OBD tester. Check connectors and wires for animal bites and dirt. Check battery voltage with all consumers (lights, window heating etc.) on.

Hope this helps

EDIT: I don't know about the Panda, but I wouldn't want to drive without power steering, even for 10 min as it really is hard to make turns and therefore dangerous.

 

[the green vanper]

10 W solar panel

It's nothing. Placebo.

 

[koalar]

It's getting over complicated

Start with the basics

without a code, it's difficult to identify the problem.

Can point you in the right direction, but if the power supplying a sensor is wrong you'll also get the wrong answer

 

[Zardo]

It's nothing. Placebo.

It did do its job by preventing a voltage drop on that old battery. Was much cheaper than having the car towed 30 km on curvy country roads. So curvy, they were impossible to drive without power steering.

By the way, if the battery is too old and the car has start-stop, a good indicator for an old battery which drops its voltage quickly is the fact that the start-stop function either is completely gone or if it is still active, then after it has switched the engine off, it will switch it on again after a few seconds, long before there's a green light on the crossing. Because in those few seconds, with your radio on or the headlights on, the voltage of that old battery has already dropped below the limit for the start-stop, hence it reactivates the engine so quickly. The only way to change this is to get a new battery.

Also, this scenario will occur even before there's a loss of power steering due to low battery voltage.

Finally, a 2009 Fiat Panda won't have the original battery anymore. If it's a start-stop car, there is a limited choice of battery types, like AGM batteries (more expensive than wet ones). Wet ones are not compatible with the voltage regulator (battery sensor monitoring) system and might cause problems.

 

[the green vanper]

It did do its job by preventing a voltage drop on that old battery. Was much cheaper than having the car towed 30 km on curvy country roads. So curvy, they were impossible to drive without power steering.

Assuming perfect lighting conditions a good quality solar panel has an efficiency of 22%. And makes up to around 19V. I don't belive a 10W solar was a good quality one, but nevermind.

So, having 2,2 W and 19V I assume you can do the math

 

[Zardo]

Assuming perfect lighting conditions a good quality solar panel has an efficiency of 22%. And makes up to around 19V. I don't belive a 10W solar was a good quality one, but nevermind.

So, having 2,2 W and 19V I assume you can do the math

I'm sorry, but that's just plain wrong. It was a summer day in August. I drove there at noon in order to make the most of the panel which was fittet right across the dashboard, I even planned the trip so that the Sun would almost always hit the pannel. It didn't provide 2,2 Watts, but operated in best conditions and therefore should provide around 10 Watts peak. This is electrical power, not the total radiation power provided by the Sun. I don't have it near me, otherwise I could measure the surface of the panels. 22% efficiency doesn't mean to calculate 0.22 x indicated peak power. It means Solar radiation x 0.22 = electrical power. It's rated 10 W peak, so it will provide 10 W under optimal conditions. Besides, I used a specialized solar voltage regulator (microprocessor controlled) which was rated to 10 A so any excess voltage would be converted to appropriate battery levels.

 

[koalar]

You can do a quick and dirty test but it's not 100%

Switch the engine off, or don't start the car

Remove any surface charge by switching the ignition on and put the headlights on for 2 minutes

Switch the ignition off, measure across the battery terminals

It does depend on make of battery, temperature at 10C I'd expect 12.6V on an new battery and 12.7V in summer,

Any update on the voltage

Do you own a battery charger

 

[cnikonpete]

Thank gents, I will try the suggestions, and report back, the car came from a Facebook Marketplace scam artist, I bought it,so will have to live with my mistake.

Any update on the voltage

Do you own a battery charger

Still haven’t checked that,sorry. Been checking earths etc, will do it tomorrow,thanks for your advice

 

[koalar]

Thank gents, I will try the suggestions, and report back, the car came from a Facebook Marketplace scam artist, I bought it,so will have to live with my mistake.
Still haven’t checked that,sorry. Been checking earths etc, will do it tomorrow,thanks for your advice

Helpful if you have a battery charger

If you leave it on charge over night and it improves it would strongly point in a power problem direction

I take it you only just bought it, often they sit before being sold, not good for a car battery.

Seen loads of these, the vast majority are power related, of those the vast majority are the battery

Out of literally hundreds occasionally it's something else,1x ABS sensor, 1x torque sensor, 1x alternator, 1x corroded fuse terminal they are random, they are rare

 

[cnikonpete]

An update, AA diagnostic machine says C1001,Power Steering motor faulty,who would have guessed!!

 

[Zardo]

ok if this is a 169 Panda 1.2 l 8V from 7/2006 or later, then

Internal control unit or electric motor error detected (C1001).

Operation:

Replace the "Electric Steering" unit.

There is no additional step between 1. Do the OBD check and if errors present, do the algorithm of the error code, which in case of C1001, it means what is cited above. However, better check with a mechanic in case it might be some other more easily and less costly fix.

I would still check the battery voltage under load conditions. The fault can also be cleared in order to see if it comes back. Some tests on the unit might be run, however you need a FIAT compatible tester which connects to every Node, not a general OBD reader (I don't know the AA diagnostic machine).

 

[koalar]

It's not 100%

Low power also triggers C1001 in the EPS

Here someone has triggered the same code with prolonged cranking

'06 Panda crank sensor issue..... | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

Have a nice weekend

www.fiatforum.com

They have a faulty ECU and nothing to do with the power steering

 

[cnikonpete]

The AA tested using Fiat’s program, it came up with some old faults that could be cleared but the power steering one won’t .
I am disillusioned with it,probably going to cut my losses, but thanks everyone.

 

[koalar]

What were the old codes that cleared they might be important

AA man has a fiat Examiner they were 10K back in 2006 got to be double that by now, honda don't let their out of the dealership for that reason

With the wheels pointing straight ahead

If you switch on the ignition without starting the car does the light come on then go out after a second or so