From this are you are saying it's ok to use the base part of the 'V' of a scissor jack (metal on metal) but not ok to use a (much softer and thus more protective) rubber pad which is wider and spreading the load more than the scissor jack.
General Campaign to stop dealers damaging our 500's
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General Campaign to stop dealers damaging our 500's
From this are you are saying it's ok to use the base part of the 'V' of a scissor jack (metal on metal) but not ok to use a (much softer and thus more protective) rubber pad which is wider and spreading the load more than the scissor jack.
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That's exactly what I'm saying.
The thin metal strip that runs along the inner sill is designed to sit in the slot of a scissor jack, where it is just located, and does not bear weight.
If you put the rubber pad of a jack on this part, all the load is going through this thin strip of metal and it becomes bent / deformed.
The rubber pad of the jack should be used on the 'outrigger' protrusions / box sections of the chassis also indicated as 'safe' jack points by Fiat.
The problem is that this sort of thing is down to people being morons. T isn't a moron and therefore he doesn't do this to peoples cars, unfortunately no amount of service bulletins, memos and statements will stop people from being morons.
Find somewhere who is going to take care of the car and don't go anywhere else.
Find somewhere who is going to take care of the car and don't go anywhere else.
I hate jacking my 500 and I hate watching other people do it too. I've had filthy looks off techs when I've told them to be careful. See a thread I started earlier.
https://www.fiatforum.com/showthread.php?t=323402
https://www.fiatforum.com/showthread.php?t=323402
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From T's comment above it does read like he thinks its ok to jack the car up on scissor jack point with rubber iAd head if a jack though. This is exactly the practice that deforms the rail.
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Yes, I remember that one.
You live near me. Doesn't take much guessing who did this to mine.
I stressed that I was very particular about how the car is jacked up etc and they still cocked it up and gave gone in to add insult to injury by damaging the outrigger jack points when they made the repair to the first damage.
The repair is terrible.. See previous post : (
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That's making an assumption, I never said that. Referring to the original pictures in your opening post all ramps have rubber pads. What work was being carried prior to the photographs?
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18k mike service. The chassis (scissor jack) rails were perfect prior to the service (I have car OCD so I know lol) and the damage to the outrigger jack points was done during the repair to the 'rails'.
Commenting on the 'assumption', the rubber head of a jack should not be place in the same location as the 'scissor jack' point..., which is what your post was suggesting if I've read it correctly.
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Have you photo of rail damage?
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Yes, it's in my first post.
The rail has a return lip at 90 degrees. This lip gets folded backwards by the pressure as it digs into the rubber pad and then the rail then becomes deformed too. In time this rail could collapse totally as the strength is in the horizontal 'flat' part of the sill, not the rail.
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Lifting the car on the rail, anywhere, with anything, whether padded or not, is an absolute no-no :nono:.
Apart from the obvious risk of bending/crushing it, the rail is also a seam and if it opens up, it may let in water & become a focus for corrosion.
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Unless those pads have a slot similar to the scissor jack - they WILL damage the sill rail. I had an oil & filter change on my current Mito a couple of weeks ago.( yes I know it's not a 500, but same principle applies ). They did manage to bend the rails very slightly, but it was still enough to crack the textured stone chip protection. Why not put the car on a ramp rather than jack it . It was only a poxy oil change. I have jacked the car up numerous times without any damage.
The other thing to say a big big no to is the "courtesy wash". The paint on my last car was completely ruined by one such wash despite my instructions - " on no account are you to wash the car". With that and a few other unresolved problems I actually got them to replace the car. Don't forget the obligatory scratches and scuff marks on the door sill. It wouldn't be like a proper visit to the dealers without those.
The other thing to say a big big no to is the "courtesy wash". The paint on my last car was completely ruined by one such wash despite my instructions - " on no account are you to wash the car". With that and a few other unresolved problems I actually got them to replace the car. Don't forget the obligatory scratches and scuff marks on the door sill. It wouldn't be like a proper visit to the dealers without those.
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Yep spot on with your observations.
There is no slot in the rubber pad - that's for sure.
What the hell is wrong with these dealers, why are they so blind to this when us 'un-trained' can spot the issue a mile off?
I suspect even T who said he 'never scratched a jack point' and 'rubber pad is better than scissor jack' has been mislead into thinking that the rail is ok to jack on. The diagram the dealers quote from Fiat shows jack points as 'the rail' and 'chassis outriggers' so dealers think its ok!!!
At least Fiat UK now have a case file open on this point and I have been contacted to explain the issue. May help future owners.
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11am, don't you work?
If your referring to a 500 I wouldn't know as never seen this 'diagram', I use common sense and that is based first and foremost on my safety.
the twins, I think you owe t an apology, he's not one of the guys who phones it in and he always comes across as a conscientious person who takes care of other peoples cars as he'd take care of his own.
I understand why you are annoyed at the wider Fiat dealer network, but making out that T would do this to peoples cars is like me saying that if he did the strut top mounts on a 500 that he'd give the car 5 or 6 degrees of toe out like the technician did to my car last year. It's not right, it's not fair and I really think you owe him an apology.
There are lazy feckless people everywhere in all walks of life and in all jobs, T doesn't come across as one of them though......
I understand why you are annoyed at the wider Fiat dealer network, but making out that T would do this to peoples cars is like me saying that if he did the strut top mounts on a 500 that he'd give the car 5 or 6 degrees of toe out like the technician did to my car last year. It's not right, it's not fair and I really think you owe him an apology.
There are lazy feckless people everywhere in all walks of life and in all jobs, T doesn't come across as one of them though......
Probably just as well as it's not particularly helpful or useful.
Like yourself, when I first got my car I used common sense to work out which hardpoints on the chassis I could use to lift the car safely. The handbook was of no use whatsoever & eLearn wasn't much better. I posted my findings here & AFAIK noone who has lifted the car in this way has ever damaged either themselves of the car.
The problem comes when folks just lift the car using a trolley on the rail in the approximate position of the arrows. The rails bend & deform & the damage is cumulative. If you use two trolleys & lift it on both sides at once this way (foolish but it gets done every day at fast fit centres up & down the country), the risks (both to the operator and the car) just multiply.
Someone working with the care & diligence that T obviously shows doesn't need a diagram - they will use their knowledge, experience & sense of respect for customer's property to look for a safe place on the chassis to lift the car.
For the rest, I'd agree the markings on the car are confusing. The arrows on the sills are only there to show end users where to place the factory-supplied abomination of a scissor jack to lift the car for emergency wheel changing only - they don't indicate safe points to lift the car on the rail. It's been posted here that some tyre fitters have used the arrows as an excuse after they've collapsed the sills using a trolley jack.
If folks are inclined to get down & photograph their rails, we could collect some evidence as to the scale of the problem.
This issue isn't just confined to 500's (the Panda has exactly the same problem) or even FIATs - I've seen shedloads of cars of all marques damaged in this way. IMO manufacturers should place clear markings on the car showing where it can be safely lifted with a trolley jack. The alternative is that a succession of fast fit fitters will place clear markings on the car showing where it can't.
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:yeahthat:
The twins, you are raising an excellent point, a lot of cars are being damaged by careless lifting, but don't make the mistake of tarring T with the same brush.
It seems to me that T is doing a good job out there. He's posted a mine of priceless information & we all owe him a debt of gratitude. FIAT's documentation isn't always all it should be and it seems to me that he's used his experience to think constructively out of the box.
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Sorry T. I may have misjudged you.
What worried me was when you suggested that its better to lift a car with the rubber pad than the metal head of the scissor jack, by this I assumed you were talking about using the rubber pad in the location that the scissor jack would go.
Once again sorry for my assumption.
What worried me was when you suggested that its better to lift a car with the rubber pad than the metal head of the scissor jack, by this I assumed you were talking about using the rubber pad in the location that the scissor jack would go.
Once again sorry for my assumption.
