Something tells me he isn't going to listen to anyone....
Yup. I'm just surprised he hasn't asked about your avatar
Surely if bigger wheels make a car handle better then that must handle like it's on rails 
Styling Biggest rims to fit the panda?
- Thread starter bebbe
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Styling Biggest rims to fit the panda?
Yup. I'm just surprised he hasn't asked about your avatar
Surely if bigger wheels make a car handle better then that must handle like it's on rails
You're talking out your arse if you don't mind me saying so.
The VX220 had all of it's handling work done by Lotus. You know Lotus, the guys who are EXPERTS in regards to handling, the company who had a successful Formula 1 team and who make some of the best handling cars on sale today.
The only thing you're right about is that a car can look a bit better sometimes with bigger rims to fill the wheelarches.
So Lotus with all the money and expertise they have "forgot" to put big wheels on the VX220 to make it handle properly. Pull the other one! You obviously have no idea how cars handle or what influences whether a car understeers or oversteers. Do you seriously think you know better than Lotus?
I should also point out that if you can get a modern car to understeer at legal speeds on good roads then you must be a pretty terrible driver. Sounds more like there's a nut loose somewhere behind your wheel.
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Although it's a little bit scarier, I can get through long sweeping corners almost as quick in our Eleganza as I can in the 100hp....Yes there is body roll and yes there is more understeer, but it certainly has 'feel'....The 100hp comes into its' own in twisty sections though....However it's not just the wheels that make that difference.
I used to have minis back in the day and the tyres really are a major factor in the handling....There aren't many cars that can live with a mini on 10" x 6" wheels with 70 (!) profile tyres....However stick 13" wheels on it and it kills the handling....
I used to have minis back in the day and the tyres really are a major factor in the handling....There aren't many cars that can live with a mini on 10" x 6" wheels with 70 (!) profile tyres....However stick 13" wheels on it and it kills the handling....
Although it's a little bit scarier, I can get through long sweeping corners almost as quick in our Eleganza as I can in the 100hp....Yes there is body roll and yes there is more understeer, but it certainly has 'feel'....The 100hp comes into its' own in twisty sections though....However it's not just the wheels that make that difference.
I used to have minis back in the day and the tyres really are a major factor in the handling....There aren't many cars that can live with a mini on 10" x 6" wheels with 70 (!) profile tyres....However stick 13" wheels on it and it kills the handling....
Very true about lower specced cars with high profile tyres. When I lived in Australia I had a Peugeot 504 with 70 profile tyres and the feel you got from the tyres was awesome. You know exactly when it was going to let go and exactly what was happening. The car didn't really handle well in the conventional sense (they had to speed up the film when it was in For your eyes only! ) but bigger wheels would have killed that progressive feel.
A standard panda on standard wheels and tyres driven at legal
(60) limit around a corner MAY suffer the symtoms of understeer,could be low tyre pressure, worn tyres, damp road,but so could one on wider low profile tyres, i agree you must be getting close to speeding or have the wrong approach speed for the corner, i think this is one of them topics where there is a technical reason why you should'nt change and a visual reason why you should, back in the 80s (here we go) i had a Escort MK2 Mexico 1.6 Pinto and rear wheel drive, we all stuck to 13" wheels(nothing any bigger available) but changed the rim style, when 185/60/13s came available it improved the handling a fair amount, up to then the cars had 175/75/13 ? understeer was not a real concern, the handbrake was used and more power applied to put the car into oversteer, a much nicer way to slide but not at legal limits i might add.
You do know if you'd kept that Mexico it'd be worth a packet now!
So true about the other things that could cause understeer. Hell in a light car like a Panda you'd probably see a difference in handling with a full tank compared to a near empty one! I can certainly feel when there is 70 litres of diesel in my car. I hadn't really thought about it but If you really want to kill the understeer then raise the pressure in the rear tyres by a couple of PSI and keep the front at the standard pressure. That will go some way to killing understeer but it's not really the smartest thing to do unless you're super-confident about your driving ability because understeer is inherently safer for the average n00b driver.
Tell me about it i have been looking on auction sites for a project n/a at right price, two friends have projects MK2 Escort rally car and RS2000 road car both in bits half way through,
my list of sporty cars since passing test in 82/3 ish
Escort MK1 1.3 sport/MK1 1.3 GT/MK1 1.3 L/MK2 1.6 sport with 40DCOEs/MK2 Mexico/ Talbot Sunbeam GPA tarmac rally car bought to do night navigational events/Mini with Austin 13 GT motor and the 6x10s/Opel Manta 1.9 with 44IDFs/ Landrover MK1 1957 for trials/Renault 21 Turbo/Brava HGT/Punto MK1 1.6 Sporting,Panda 100hp/ loads of crap in between fiat 126 also ? glad the post has calmed down alittle was getting a tad heated.
my list of sporty cars since passing test in 82/3 ish
Escort MK1 1.3 sport/MK1 1.3 GT/MK1 1.3 L/MK2 1.6 sport with 40DCOEs/MK2 Mexico/ Talbot Sunbeam GPA tarmac rally car bought to do night navigational events/Mini with Austin 13 GT motor and the 6x10s/Opel Manta 1.9 with 44IDFs/ Landrover MK1 1957 for trials/Renault 21 Turbo/Brava HGT/Punto MK1 1.6 Sporting,Panda 100hp/ loads of crap in between fiat 126 also ? glad the post has calmed down alittle was getting a tad heated.
My friend had a Sunbeam which had the engine from an ex-East African Safari Rally Car in it.... (Long story, my other friend's uncle was the mechanic for the rally-team in the 70s) It was such an awesome car (albeit a rusty old beast!)....Raspy Twin Dellorto's etc....Anyway I remember we got into a cross country duel with a Brand New (then) G60 Golf (the supercharged one)...We stuck with him for twenty-odd miles, both of us overtaking everything....When we turned off, the guy waved to us....I don't think he could believe this 'tatty old sunbeam' had stayed with his shiny new monster Golf!
Happy Days!
OP
OP
bebbe
New member
You're talking out your arse if you don't mind me saying so.
The VX220 had all of it's handling work done by Lotus. You know Lotus, the guys who are EXPERTS in regards to handling, the company who had a successful Formula 1 team and who make some of the best handling cars on sale today.
The only thing you're right about is that a car can look a bit better sometimes with bigger rims to fill the wheelarches.
So Lotus with all the money and expertise they have "forgot" to put big wheels on the VX220 to make it handle properly. Pull the other one! You obviously have no idea how cars handle or what influences whether a car understeers or oversteers. Do you seriously think you know better than Lotus?
Lotus is one thing. Vauxhal and Opel another. True the chassie is Lotus but the wheels are Vauxhal and Opel. Don't think Lotus wanted the car to be this way
To have a VX220 or Speedster to trackdays with standard rims are just a waste of time. The car is MUCH faster on bigger tires (wider). If you let the wheel alignmet be standard and just swopp to bigger tires you will cut alot on tracktime, I now I have done int myself. Opel and Vauxhal wanted the car to under steer more. That's why they have the tyres they have. But ok. You can drive the Speedster and VX220 on 16" or even 15" and get really nice laptimes. It's the width that is important. Althoue the smaller tiers can some times suffer frome overheating (touching the ground more times per lap) that is not a big problem on a Speedster tough because it's such a light car.
And if you read me more correctly you would se what I mean. The tire sizes I am talking about. The VX220 and Opel has 17" but not so wide. That is a way to balance the car to over or under steer.
ScoobyChris
Established member
I think there's a small amount of confusion on this thread
As I'm sure you know, understeer is where the rear of the car has more grip than the front (and you crash into the hedge forwards) and oversteer is where the front of the car has more grip than the rear (and you crash into the hedge backwards).You say the car is set up to understeer from the factory which will be done by suspension geometry, ARB thicknesses and the relative grip front-to-back of the tyres - most powerful RWD cars will have bigger tyres at the rear which may cause understeer.
So, if you increase the grip at each corner proportionally (and by a reasonably small amount), the car is still going to handle in the same way because all the factors are still the same. The only difference now is that it takes more speed to overcome the grip the tyres have to reach the point at which the car understeers.
So, with a wider tyre you're seeing better laptimes because there is more grip available, and you're not overcoming the amount of grip required to induce understeer. Push the car into a corner faster however, and it will eventually arrive.
There was an excellent example of this on Top Gear where the ham-fisted Clarkson was complaining that the new Lotus Elise understeered to high heaven when he was driving it. The Lotus test driver took him round the same circuit and showed that it didn't at all, but as a way of overcoming it for their customers who were not great drivers, they offered bigger tyres for the front only (to change the ratio of grip front to back) and make the handling more neutral.
Chris
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OP
bebbe
New member
I think there's a small amount of confusion on this thread
You say the car is set up to understeer from the factory which will be done by suspension geometry, ARB thicknesses and the relative grip front-to-back of the tyres - most powerful RWD cars will have bigger tyres at the rear which may cause understeer.
So, if you increase the grip at each corner proportionally (and by a reasonably small amount), the car is still going to handle in the same way because all the factors are still the same. The only difference now is that it takes more speed to overcome the grip the tyres have to reach the point at which the car understeers.
So, with a wider tyre you're seeing better laptimes because there is more grip available, and you're not overcoming the amount of grip required to induce understeer. Push the car into a corner faster however, and it will eventually arrive.
There was an excellent example of this on Top Gear where the ham-fisted Clarkson was complaining that the new Lotus Elise understeered to high heaven when he was driving it. The Lotus test driver took him round the same circuit and showed that it didn't at all, but as a way of overcoming it for their customers who were not great drivers, they offered bigger tyres for the front only (to change the ratio of grip front to back) and make the handling more neutral.
Chris
So what you are saying is. Bigger tyres more speed = better handling
ScoobyChris
Established member
So what you are saying is. Bigger tyres more speed = better handling
No. I'm saying bigger tyres = more grip. Nothing more, nothing less.
Chris
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bebbe
New member
Don't understand how a question about what size of rims a Panda could have can transform to a kind of handling question. In my mind a Panda and nice handling isn't in the same book. You have to spend almost as much as the car cost to get it to be really nice. And for what reason? It will still be a Panda
Then I preciate that it's named that to big rims is bad for the handling. Although what size is to big is more about what car you have and not a general meassurment!
And offcourse a Panda with 16" low profile tyres instead of 13" high profile tyres will handel better. No one could argue about that. May so be that the car handel better due to more grip but it does'nt mater it handels better anyway. Grip is also handling
By the way; The Speedster oversteer in corners with the new tyres when you reach the limit. Some times everything isn't as clear as it should be...........
Then I preciate that it's named that to big rims is bad for the handling. Although what size is to big is more about what car you have and not a general meassurment!
And offcourse a Panda with 16" low profile tyres instead of 13" high profile tyres will handel better. No one could argue about that. May so be that the car handel better due to more grip but it does'nt mater it handels better anyway. Grip is also handling
By the way; The Speedster oversteer in corners with the new tyres when you reach the limit. Some times everything isn't as clear as it should be...........
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ScoobyChris
Established member
No it's not! A classic Impreza turbo has tonnes (and I mean comedy amounts!) of grip, yet handles poorly. My diesel Mondeo did not have as much grip, but the handling was far superior.
Grip is to do with the tyre/tarmac interface. Handling is to do with the car's dynamics. Ergo you cannot improve handling by increasing the tyre width on every tyre.
Chris
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You are talking about roadholding, not handling. Handling depends on a lot more than just the size of your wheels and tyres, it depends on geometry setup, ie how much toe, camber, castor (to a lesser degree) type of suspension, weight distribution and of course the feel of the car.
If you want to improve the handling of a car you need to focus on the suspension and geo setup first IMO.
Just reading through some of the other comments, understeer can be balanced out most easily by stiffening the rear end. Come have a look at the rear ARB on my integra and you'll see what i mean, it lifts an inside rear wheel which helps mobilise the rear end on turn in. Of course this is somewhat harder to achieve on a panda with a torsion beam rear and no ARB. It'll be interesting to see if rear ARB kits appear once they launch the 500 Abarth and Ford KA, both of which have rear ARBs. The other option is to have a rock hard rear, but that can cause other issues and even if every corner is an oversteer opportunity, you'll soon tire of your teeth falling out after the first few miles!
Bebbe, grip is most certainly not handling. You need to understand the difference. I would not dream of increasing the rim size on my integra i'm even a bit upset that i couldn't get OEM tyres when the fronts wore out recently. If I do end up getting a 100hp, I will not be changing the wheels or tyres, no chance honey.
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This is one of the most informed and well-argued threads I've ever seen on the Forum. I upped the size of my tyres on factory alloys from 165s to 175s but kept to the 65 profile as I'm a tight git and didn't want to shell out the extra cash to buy 55 or 60 series rubber. I "asked around" and Trackday Queen came back and said she thought that upgrade would be ok, and thanks for the advice. There has been a slight improvement to roadholding but, predictably none in handling. Comparing my MJT with the Fiesta 1.4 diesel
I use at work, though, is like chalk and cheese. Notwithstanding the fact that
the Ford has 195/50R15s, it also has handling almost as good as the Focus, with pinsharp steering that enables you to position it exactly where you want
it or adjust your position at will when half way through a bend. I think a rear ARB if one comes available could make a lot of difference. One point about the Fiesta though is this handling and roadholding comes at a price. It's done just over 40K miles, 80% of which is in an urban environment with loads of roundabouts and has had one pair of rear tyres and just had its 4th, yes you read it right, 4 pairs of front tyres in 40 thousand miles.
I use at work, though, is like chalk and cheese. Notwithstanding the fact that
the Ford has 195/50R15s, it also has handling almost as good as the Focus, with pinsharp steering that enables you to position it exactly where you want
it or adjust your position at will when half way through a bend. I think a rear ARB if one comes available could make a lot of difference. One point about the Fiesta though is this handling and roadholding comes at a price. It's done just over 40K miles, 80% of which is in an urban environment with loads of roundabouts and has had one pair of rear tyres and just had its 4th, yes you read it right, 4 pairs of front tyres in 40 thousand miles.
No it's not! A classic Impreza turbo has tonnes (and I mean comedy amounts!) of grip, yet handles poorly. My diesel Mondeo did not have as much grip, but the handling was far superior.
Grip is to do with the tyre/tarmac interface. Handling is to do with the car's dynamics. Ergo you cannot improve handling by increasing the tyre width on every tyre.
Chris
Sooooo true. The wifes Legacy Turbo is the same. Lots of grip but no handling. If my 406 had a decent engine (it's a turbo diesel) it would absolutely massacre her car in a theoretical race on some nice twisty roads
Visorfett
Member
So lets get this right...
If I get 20" spinners wit rubber bands on, then I can get to work faster and cooler?
And The wider my tyres, the better handling i have?
And if I put a "cossie" wing on my panda I will be able to drive upside down in a tunnel at 80mph?
and If I get Go faster stripes, they will add about 10mph.
and if I............ :bang:
If I get 20" spinners wit rubber bands on, then I can get to work faster and cooler?
And The wider my tyres, the better handling i have?
And if I put a "cossie" wing on my panda I will be able to drive upside down in a tunnel at 80mph?
and If I get Go faster stripes, they will add about 10mph.
and if I............
:bang:
YesSo lets get this right...
If I get 20" spinners wit rubber bands on, then I can get to work faster and cooler?
And The wider my tyres, the better handling i have?
And if I put a "cossie" wing on my panda I will be able to drive upside down in a tunnel at 80mph?
and If I get Go faster stripes, they will add about 10mph.
and if I............
Yes
Yes
Yes
Hope that helps
