Technical battery light

[confuszd]

Hi you fellow fiat fanatics. Many thanks in advance to anyone who can offer any advice. Along with my Fiat 500, which be my fun work runaround, last year, I treated myself to a 2007 fiat ducato Adria mobil, which was also lots of fun until it wasn't. First there was the windscreen wiper motor and the bottle wash motor, but hey they were easyish to get to and replace. Not to much brain damage.
On our next trip away, we broke down (twice)owing to what now seems to have been an alternator issue - replacing it was a horrid job, but the battery be once again charging, which be a huge relief, however that pesky red battery might be still there taunting me on the dashboard as it has been for months (kind of ignored it until the alternator died), but am bit concerned if I continue to ignore it, it might cause more problems.
So any ideas???
I have checked all those earths and fuses, all seems fine. Think there also an issue with that split charging relay as mains fridge doesn't work and leisure battery only charges from solar panal. Could this be causing my battery light issues and if so where is it hidden

 

[HughJampton]

Check that you've got a D+ connection at the new alternator.

(and if you have, check the associated wiring).

Lack of a D+ output could/would account for all three issues.

 

[confuszd]

Check that you've got a D+ connection at the new alternator.

(and if you have, check the associated wiring).

Lack of a D+ output could/would account for all three issues.

Hi thanks for your reply, am thinking as the new alternator be working, there must be a working D connection, unless I be even more confused than I imagined (which is possible)

 

[HughJampton]

AFAIK the alternator will work if it has the ground and main battery (+) connection (and charge the main battery).

The D+ is an additional separate signalling connection which is used to control the dash battery light, and conventionally to drive split charge and fridge relays.

Lack of this connection, or broken wiring, could account for all the issues.

 

[confuszd]

AFAIK the alternator will work if it has the ground and main battery (+) connection (and charge the main battery).

The D+ is an additional separate signalling connection which is used to control the dash battery light, and conventionally to drive split charge and fridge relays.

Lack of this connection, or broken wiring, could account for all the issues.

gosh, I am super confused now, I thought the D plus was the input to the alternator, but it seems from your reply that this not be the case. Maybe a stupid question but here goes, how do I locate this D plus wire to test a lack of connection or broken wire (sorry to ask maybe the obvious, but I'm just a DIY mechanic when not doing my home care work) Many thanks in advance for your patience and kindness

 

[rayc]

The power / charging circuit for the basic vehicle i.e. the display battery lamp. The alternator D+ is negative when the alternator is not running with ignition on so the lamp is on. When the alternator starts the voltage rises to 12v and the lamp goes out as it has 12v on each side. The alternator inputs directly into the Body Control Modul BCM [M001 on the drawing]. The battery lamp also connects directly to the BCM thus the BCM is the interface.
Fiat provide a D+ connection for the convertor to use to operate fridge, split charging, satellite dish retraction etc. This is a battery negative 0v.
The first step has to be to be to sort the battery lamp problem out. When that is done the other things should

 

[confuszd]

The power / charging circuit for the basic vehicle i.e. the display battery lamp. The alternator D+ is negative when the alternator is not running with ignition on so the lamp is on. When the alternator starts the voltage rises to 12v and the lamp goes out as it has 12v on each side.
Fiat provide a D+ connection for the convertor to use to operate fridge, split charging, satellite dish retraction etc.
The first step has to be to be to sort the battery lamp problem out. When that is done the other things should

thank you so much, that is fantastically useful. Not sure I have the 12v on each side, will update you when light resumes and I have another day off.

 

[HughJampton]

Back to basics, I think.

If you replaced the alternator and aren't aware of the D+ connection, did you only connect ground and vehicle battery +ve?

There should also be a much thinner connection to the alternator providing the 12v D+ signal. If you didn't make this connection on the replacement alternator then this is the most likely cause.

(Just restating that this signal controls the warning lamp, and also conventionally the fridge and leisure battery relays)

 

[Communicator]

Gentlemen,
I am afraid that there seems to be some confusion in previous posts in this thread. The basic warning lamp, which provided initial excitation for the alternator field, applied until the x250 Ducato model was introduced in 2006. Subsequently the alternator was monitored by the BCM, which controlled the warning light, and provided an active low, D+ signal via the converters panel.
I recommend that attention is given to this relevant thread.

 

[HughJampton]

I'm not sure that changes much, other than potentially negating Ray's detail of how the dash indicator works.

The vehicle needs to monitor D+. The signal will control (ultimately via whatever method) all three items the op says aren't functioning.

If he is unaware of connecting a D+ wire, then that's where to start.

(Unless you're saying the BCM monitors the function in a different way, e.g. voltage sensing).

 

[confuszd]

I'm not sure that changes much, other than potentially negating Ray's detail of how the dash indicator works.

The vehicle needs to monitor D+. The signal will control (ultimately via whatever method) all three items the op says aren't functioning.

If he is unaware of connecting a D+ wire, then that's where to start.

(Unless you're saying the BCM monitors the function in a different way, e.g. voltage sensing).

I reconnected everything that I had unconnected. Will double check on saturday when there be some more daylight. Many thanks again for all your help and advice. Will let you know how it all goes. Kind Regards Janet

 

[rayc]

"The connection between connector B (D+) of the A010 alternator and pin 25 of connector A of the M001 Body Computer allows the performance of the alternator itself to be diagnosed (in the event of an insufficient recharging level). Once a fault has been discovered, the M001 Body Computer, through the CAN network, will light the "insufficient battery charge" warning light on the E050 instrument panel"

 

[jackwhoo]

Is this vehicle based on an x244 or x250 Ducato?
I would guess it's going to be an x250 but it could be one of the last x244 that spent a while at the converter before registration.

In the vin number there will be x244
Or x250

 

[Communicator]

Is this vehicle based on an x244 or x250 Ducato?
I would guess it's going to be an x250 but it could be one of the last x244 that spent a while at the converter before registration.

In the vin number there will be x244
Or x250

Good thinking. I had missed that point. The x244 was manufactured until mid 2006. I know that because I have a 2006 x244.

In explanation for the OP the VIN number will most probably begin either ZFA244........, or ZFA250......... Which it is very important when advising on this, or most other problems.

The VIN will be on the vehicle plate, under the bonnet, at the top of the radiator, and in the vehicle registration document.

 

[confuszd]

Good thinking. I had missed that point. The x244 was manufactured until mid 2006. I know that because I have a 2006 x244.

In explanation for the OP the VIN number will most probably begin either ZFA244........, or ZFA250......... Which it is very important when advising on this, or most other problems.

The VIN will be on the vehicle plate, under the bonnet, at the top of the radiator, and in the vehicle registration document.

Is this vehicle based on an x244 or x250 Ducato?
I would guess it's going to be an x250 but it could be one of the last x244 that spent a while at the converter before registration.

In the vin number there will be x244
Or x250

first registered in october 2007 and the part sites tell me it's a 250, it's a bit dark for me to pop and look at vim numbers and there isn't one on my carte grise. Have a 12 shift today starting in half hour, so will let you know for sure on saturday. Many thanks

 

[confuszd]

Gentlemen,
I am afraid that there seems to be some confusion in previous posts in this thread. The basic warning lamp, which provided initial excitation for the alternator field, applied until the x250 Ducato model was introduced in 2006. Subsequently the alternator was monitored by the BCM, which controlled the warning light, and provided an active low, D+ signal via the converters panel.
I recommend that attention is given to this relevant thread.

many thanks for link, just wondering could I not just ignore the battery light, (pretend its an early festive decoration). The fridge works on gaz and the leissure battery has it solar panal. Or would ignoring the light cause eventual problems for my lovely new alternator or something even worse.

 

[Communicator]

first registered in october 2007 and the part sites tell me it's a 250, it's a bit dark for me to pop and look at vim numbers and there isn't one on my carte grise. Have a 12 shift today starting in half hour, so will let you know for sure on saturday. Many thanks

Another check as to the model is the starter battery location. On the earlier x244 it is at the RHS of the vehicle under the bonnet (hood). On the x250 the starter battery is under the LHS cab floor, also the headlamps slope upwards at the rear outer corners.

 

[confuszd]

Saturday morning update. So my lovely camper is a 250. The D+ runs to the alternator via the BCM (or is monitered by). if it is a BCM issue, then I'm going to have to send my lovely to the garage but before that evil and expensive step, I would really like to find the relay for the fridge and solar panel, so I can test it. Have done internet and forum searches, but haven't got definate answer as to where this pesky relay (or maybe relays) be hiding. Any ideas gratefully received

 

[Communicator]

Saturday morning update. So my lovely camper is a 250. The D+ runs to the alternator via the BCM (or is monitered by). if it is a BCM issue, then I'm going to have to send my lovely to the garage but before that evil and expensive step, I would really like to find the relay for the fridge and solar panel, so I can test it. Have done internet and forum searches, but haven't got definate answer as to where this pesky relay (or maybe relays) be hiding. Any ideas gratefully received

A converters panel was introduced with the x250. It is situated at the base of the RHS "B" pillar. (That's behind the drivers seat on a RHD version.)

Does your vehicle have this option? The D+ signal is active low, which means that it connects to 0V (earth) when alternator is working. Typically a relay box is fitted by the converter to convert to active high (+12V), and allow the connection of more devices.

I have attached details of the converters panel.

May I suggest that at this stage it would be worth checking that the alternator is charging by checking the voltage across the starter battery terminals, when the enginr is running, by usung a multimeter. This battery is located under the LHS cab floor. You should be able to read over 14.0V, but not more than 14.6V.

 

[HughJampton]

Apologies for mis-gendering you earlier, Janet

The relays could be mounted just about anywhere in the electrical system, but converters tend to be reasonably consistent, and certain brands of motorhome electrical equipment will have a defined location.

If you can post the make of your motorhome and the brand of (habitation) electrical equipment (Schaudt, CBE, Nordelletronica....etc.) it might help to focus any answer.

As above, if the vehicle has the converters socket in the pillar, it is conventional for the initial D+ supply for habitation functions to be taken from there (or more correctly, the "drop to ground" used to control a relay which will provide a +12V signal). It is worth testing, but the strong suspicion is that it will not be functioning if the alternator light is on, as this is logically driven in circuit before the pillar signal.

My suspicion would still be a lack of D+ connection at/to the alternator, or if all the issues were long term, before the alternator change, possibly a defective BCM (or poor connection).

If the fridge and split charge were both working previously, I'd still be looking at whether the new alternator has been properly installed.

Shamelessly copying a picture from another post on here, there should be a robust connection at the point indicated, or its similar equivalent (AFAIK, a plug with two connections).