Technical battery light

[confuszd]

Hi you fellow fiat fanatics. Many thanks in advance to anyone who can offer any advice. Along with my Fiat 500, which be my fun work runaround, last year, I treated myself to a 2007 fiat ducato Adria mobil, which was also lots of fun until it wasn't. First there was the windscreen wiper motor and the bottle wash motor, but hey they were easyish to get to and replace. Not to much brain damage.
On our next trip away, we broke down (twice)owing to what now seems to have been an alternator issue - replacing it was a horrid job, but the battery be once again charging, which be a huge relief, however that pesky red battery might be still there taunting me on the dashboard as it has been for months (kind of ignored it until the alternator died), but am bit concerned if I continue to ignore it, it might cause more problems.
So any ideas???
I have checked all those earths and fuses, all seems fine. Think there also an issue with that split charging relay as mains fridge doesn't work and leisure battery only charges from solar panal. Could this be causing my battery light issues and if so where is it hidden

 

[confuszd]

A converters panel was introduced with the x250. It is situated at the base of the RHS "B" pillar. (That's behind the drivers seat on a RHD version.)

Does your vehicle have this option? The D+ signal is active low, which means that it connects to 0V (earth) when alternator is working. Typically a relay box is fitted by the converter to convert to active high (+12V), and allow the connection of more devices.

I have attached details of the converters panel.

May I suggest that at this stage it would be worth checking that the alternator is charging by checking the voltage across the starter battery terminals, when the enginr is running, by usung a multimeter. This battery is located under the LHS cab floor. You should be able to read over 14.0V, but not more than 14.

 

[confuszd]

pleased to report that everything is lovely with the alternator and d+ side of things. Have double checked thus morning and meter readings are they should be. Have also rechecked fuses, somebody naughty (previous owner no doubt) had put in wrong fuses here and there (too high, very naughty) so have replaced them with the right ones. Hoping it won't bring about more problems. Now off to hunt around the seating area

 

[confuszd]

Apologies for mis-gendering you earlier, Janet

The relays could be mounted just about anywhere in the electrical system, but converters tend to be reasonably consistent, and certain brands of motorhome electrical equipment will have a defined location.

If you can post the make of your motorhome and the brand of (habitation) electrical equipment (Schaudt, CBE, Nordelletronica....etc.) it might help to focus any answer.

As above, if the vehicle has the converters socket in the pillar, it is conventional for the initial D+ supply for habitation functions to be taken from there (or more correctly, the "drop to ground" used to control a relay which will provide a +12V signal). It is worth testing, but the strong suspicion is that it will not be functioning if the alternator light is on, as this is logically driven in circuit before the pillar signal.

My suspicion would still be a lack of D+ connection at/to the alternator, or if all the issues were long term, before the alternator change, possibly a defective BCM (or poor connection).

If the fridge and split charge were both working previously, I'd still be looking at whether the new alternator has been properly installed.

Shamelessly copying a picture from another post on here, there should be a robust connection at the point indicated, or its similar equivalent (AFAIK, a plug with two connections).

View attachment 454982

 

[confuszd]

I only bought the camper a year ago and to be fair initially I only ran the fridge on gaz (didn't really check that bit of things when I bought it - oops) Fridge (and possibly leisure battery) hasn't been working on 12v for ages and there is possibility that when I did try it and found it didn't work, this might have been around the time the battery light came on. But that was way back in January, so can't be certain. Anyway off to find this near seats connectors, will let you model and all if have no luck. Many thanks for your wonderful help and patience

 

[confuszd]

Have made progress. Found the split charge relay and discovered that Mr green wire (D+ to habitation charge controller) was doing nothing, but had lovely charge coming in on the D+ from the alternator (mr yellow wire) Bypassed the relay and hey there was a relay click at the EBL charge controller and the fridge light came on. Sadly the evil battery warning light did not go off.
A new relay is obvs needed, but the battery light problems persists and I'm really stumped, had high hopes that the broken relay would be the answer

 

[Communicator]

Have made progress. Found the split charge relay and discovered that Mr green wire (D+ to habitation charge controller) was doing nothing, but had lovely charge coming in on the D+ from the alternator (mr yellow wire) Bypassed the relay and hey there was a relay click at the EBL charge controller and the fridge light came on. Sadly the evil battery warning light did not go off.
A new relay is obvs needed, but the battery light problems persists and I'm really stumped, had high hopes that the broken relay would be the answer

I am sorry but I am now confused. I note that you have an Electroblok. I thought that the Electroblok contaned the split charge relay. There are many versions (models) of the Schaudt Electroblok, so can you please supply model number?

I realise that you have yet to check for converters panel at base of RHS B pillar, but this, as mentioned previously is where the D+ signal should be obtained from. My understanding is that from 2006 onwards the alternator is monitored by the BCM (Body Control Module). If the conveter has chose to tap into the connection between the alternator and the BCM, then it is possible that this could upset the BCM. It colld be showing its annoyance, by displaying a red battery light.

I have a well above average experience of working with relays, perhaps extending over more than 75 years. From that experience it is only rarely that a relay is the cause of a fault. More often poor connections to the relay, are reason for failure.

Sorry if I am preaching to the converted, but many are confused by the split charge relay. They expect something magical. All that the split charge relay does is to parallel, or couple starter and habitation (leisure) batteries, when the alternator is charging, and uncouple when the alternator stops charging.

Confirming the presence or absence of the converters panel, may provide a clue to your problem.

 

[confuszd]

I am sorry but I am now confused. I note that you have an Electroblok. I thought that the Electroblok contaned the split charge relay. There are many versions (models) of the Schaudt Electroblok, so can you please supply model number?

I realise that you have yet to check for converters panel at base of RHS B pillar, but this, as mentioned previously is where the D+ signal should be obtained from. My understanding is that from 2006 onwards the alternator is monitored by the BCM (Body Control Module). If the conveter has chose to tap into the connection between the alternator and the BCM, then it is possible that this could upset the BCM. It colld be showing its annoyance, by displaying a red battery light.

I have a well above average experience of working with relays, perhaps extending over more than 75 years. From that experience it is only rarely that a relay is the cause of a fault. More often poor connections to the relay, are reason for failure.

Sorry if I am preaching to the converted, but many are confused by the split charge relay. They expect something magical. All that the split charge relay does is to parallel, or couple starter and habitation (leisure) batteries, when the alternator is charging, and uncouple when the alternator stops charging.

Confirming the presence or absence of the converters panel, may provide a clue to your problem.

Oops, I seem to be creating a contagion of confusion. Should have explained things better in my last post (but I was a bit tired and frazzled by that point.)
Did indeed remove the panal at the base of RHD B panel and it was there I found many a wire, some fuses and a relay. The fuses were fine, wires and connections fine, the relay, however had issues. The D+ was putting in 12v (lovely) but nothing was coming out. Bypassed relay by putting out-wire onto D+ and discovered that fridge and leisure battery now worked on 12v. From here deduced that the relay no longer worked.

True to say, I do not have anywhere near 75 years experience of relays, my experience be more with the over 75 year olds (as a home carer), so am really not sure my deductions be sound.
My electroblok be a EBL 208 SE - it is a schaudt.

Many thanks for you help, advice and patience

 

[HughJampton]

I may be adding to the confusion here, as I'm interpreting a bit, but the following might be appropriate for further research.

My suspicion is that you've bypassed the relay, but not found a working D+ signal (as the latter at that point is not 12v).

The signal from the converters socket denoting the presence of D+ is via a connection that is normally open-circuit, but goes to ground when the alternator outputs D+. That ground is used to switch a normally open relay, which has a permanent 12v input, and a switched 12v output. I suspect you have just bridged the latter 2. The fact that this relay isn't switching but can be bypassed is still consistent with there being no D+ switching signal being delivered, (or indeed that the relay has failed). To repeat - for the relay there is a 12V input, a switched 12V output, and a D+ signalling connection which is open circuit with no D+ and Ground when there is D+. (Most people assume +12v for this connection, but it isn't).

With the dash light still lit, the main suspicion still falls on the lack of a D+signal (either alternator or BCM issues).

I'm not sure if it will help or not, but the manual for your EBL can be found here:

https://res.cloudinary.com/lci-cloudinary/image/upload/v1694803226/lippert-eu/support/power-on-board/pdf/anleitungen/911/9110475/911475_20041007_EBL208SE_BA_EN.pdf

(Though it confirms, as is conventional for EBLs, that the fridge and split-charge relays are internal to the EBL (and controlled by the, converted to 12V by the relay you've bypassed, incoming D+ signal).

Your next diagnosis should be to check the signal at Pin 2 of the connectors socket in the B pillar. You're checking for continuity to ground (a local piece of metallic bodywork) to be absent when the engine is off, and present when it is on (just to restate, you're not looking for 12V).

 

[Communicator]

I am in agreement with Hugh. I will attach diagram for the Fiat converters panel. See pages 137/138.

Unfortunately the presence of the converters panel, negates my suggestion of a possible cause for the battery warning light.

I am sorry but I may not be able to make further replies today, as my wife was readmitted to hospital late yesterday, with a leaking surgical wound. I have many things to attend to.

 

[jackwhoo]

I am sorry but I may not be able to make further replies today, as my wife was readmitted to hospital late yesterday, with a leaking surgical wound. I have many things to attend to.

Very best wishes for your wife and you, Jack

 

[confuszd]

Very best wishes for your wife and you, Jack

thank you, and best wishes for you and your wife

 

[confuszd]

I may be adding to the confusion here, as I'm interpreting a bit, but the following might be appropriate for further research.

My suspicion is that you've bypassed the relay, but not found a working D+ signal (as the latter at that point is not 12v).

The signal from the converters socket denoting the presence of D+ is via a connection that is normally open-circuit, but goes to ground when the alternator outputs D+. That ground is used to switch a normally open relay, which has a permanent 12v input, and a switched 12v output. I suspect you have just bridged the latter 2. The fact that this relay isn't switching but can be bypassed is still consistent with there being no D+ switching signal being delivered, (or indeed that the relay has failed). To repeat - for the relay there is a 12V input, a switched 12V output, and a D+ signalling connection which is open circuit with no D+ and Ground when there is D+. (Most people assume +12v for this connection, but it isn't).

With the dash light still lit, the main suspicion still falls on the lack of a D+signal (either alternator or BCM issues).

I'm not sure if it will help or not, but the manual for your EBL can be found here:

https://res.cloudinary.com/lci-cloudinary/image/upload/v1694803226/lippert-eu/support/power-on-board/pdf/anleitungen/911/9110475/911475_20041007_EBL208SE_BA_EN.pdf

(Though it confirms, as is conventional for EBLs, that the fridge and split-charge relays are internal to the EBL (and controlled by the, converted to 12V by the relay you've bypassed, incoming D+ signal).

Your next diagnosis should be to check the signal at Pin 2 of the connectors socket in the B pillar. You're checking for continuity to ground (a local piece of metallic bodywork) to be absent when the engine is off, and present when it is on (just to restate, you're not looking for 12V).

Have checked out the connectors socket in B pillar, but there isn't anything in pin 2 hole and nothing to connect anything to. There is a wire in Pin 6 and 15. Wire in pin 15 is the yellow D+

 

[confuszd]

Have checked out the connectors socket in B pillar, but there isn't anything in pin 2 hole and nothing to connect anything to. There is a wire in Pin 6 and 15. Wire in pin 15 is the yellow D+

 

[confuszd]

have found new diagram, turns out it is pin 2 and pin 15. I really need to know how the split relay be wired as it looks like it has been messed with by some previous owner. If anybody has a photo of a split relay 2007 Adria and its wiring would be super helpful. Many thanks

 

[jackwhoo]

I am thinking the d+ at alternator and what we are calling d+ at converter socket are different circuits although both controlled by the bcm.

I am also thinking the bcm to alternator d+ wire is not a simple on off but rather a communication signal due to nature of "smart" alternator .please can someone confirm Or deny?

Plus do not rely on wire colours between different sections of wiring- seval have a habit of changing colours between sections ...I think it is a French joke.

 

[HughJampton]

have found new diagram, turns out it is pin 2 and pin 15. I really need to know how the split relay be wired as it looks like it has been messed with by some previous owner. If anybody has a photo of a split relay 2007 Adria and its wiring would be super helpful. Many thanks

I'm confused by pin 15 as it shouldn't be populated. Pin 2 is the drop to ground signal on alternator generating to switch a relay creating an emulated D+ 12V signal.

The split charge relay should be in the EBL. If you're referring to the relay connected to the converters socket, this is likely to be that mentioned above creating the emulated D+ 12V signal (which then goes to the EBL, controlling the fridge and split-charge relays in there).

 

[HughJampton]

I am thinking the d+ at alternator and what we are calling d+ at converter socket are different circuits although both controlled by the bcm.

I am also thinking the bcm to alternator d+ wire is not a simple on off but rather a communication signal due to nature of "smart" alternator .please can someone confirm Or deny?

Plus do not rely on wire colours between different sections of wiring- seval have a habit of changing colours between sections ...I think it is a French joke.

The D+ from the alternator will be a 12V signal to the BCM. The "D+" at the converters socket is actually a "drop to ground" (presumably controlled by the BCM) which is used to switch a relay to provide an emulated D+ signal at 12V.

I think there are two signals from the alternator, one to the engine ECU, and one to the BCM, but the latter is, AFAIK, a 12V connection.

It won't be a "smart" alternator on a 2007 'van.

 

[Communicator]

The D+ from the alternator will be a 12V signal to the BCM. The "D+" at the converters socket is actually a "drop to ground" (presumably controlled by the BCM) which is used to switch a relay to provide an emulated D+ signal at 12V.

I think there are two signals from the alternator, one to the engine ECU, and one to the BCM, but the latter is, AFAIK, a 12V connection.

It won't be a "smart" alternator on a 2007 'van.

I think that it is slightly more complicated. Not a smart alternator, but there is an interchange on starting. The BCM needs to see less than 1K ohms when looking into the alternator D+, before supplying initial excitation current. Non OEM alternators may fail to function because of this requirement. There is a thread relating to this, but I cannot locate it at the moment. @koalar has specific knowledge/experience in this area, perhaps he will confirm?

 

[confuszd]

I'm confused by pin 15 as it shouldn't be populated. Pin 2 is the drop to ground signal on alternator generating to switch a relay creating an emulated D+ 12V signal.

The split charge relay should be in the EBL. If you're referring to the relay connected to the converters socket, this is likely to be that mentioned above creating the emulated D+ 12V signal (which then goes to the EBL, controlling the fridge and split-charge relays in there).

was kind of under impression that the relay connected to converters socket was the split charge relay, but from your message, it appears not. Anyway it be this relay that be not working correctly, although I don't think it has anything to do with why the battery light is staying on.
Have decided to live with the battery light - the alternator is charging, there is a new battery in place and all the multimeter readings are good. I have a super stressful job and have no more time and energy to worry about this light right now. Am go to take the camper on mini break next weekend (with a spare battery in case all goes wrong) Many thanks for all your help, kindness and patience, if you ever find yourself in the lovely nontron area, please get in touch.

 

[confuszd]

many thanks to everyone who offered me fantastic help, support, kindness and patience with the annoying battery light. If any of you are ever in the lovely nontron area, please feel free to get in touch. Many thanks and happy fiat motoring - I will be back in my lovely red fiat 500 tomorrow, once again darting around the local country lanes on my rounds. All my lovely clients love my little red riding hood as much as I do. Hoping my ducato will once again make me smile again too. Janet