Technical Another question re Twin Air oil recommendation...

[The Panda Nut]

My old 2012 4x4 was getting 5W/40 when being serviced at Fiat up to 2021/2 then they changed to 0W/30. I did ask why and got no better than "that's what Fiat say" it was always Castrol too not the Petronas/Selina.
It ran equally well on both.

Spike

I would expect that there will have been a software change if the oil spec changed. My understanding is the Ow30 is only for the EUro 6 and the Euro 5 should / can stil run the other oil. In terms of engine life give me 5w40 any day over the thin stuff, but for the uniair system use the specified grade fro preference. I do wonder if the change is beneficial or detrimental to the longevity of the uniair module. Thinner oil is likely better for the actual working of the system though as more akin to striaght light hydraulic fluid. Its notable that when they changed the oil spec they halved the serice distance so oil changes are now 9000 miles not 18000. When I bought my first one (2017) the dealer couldnt tell me the service interval and said 18000. WHen I proved them wrong and complained my expected costs were not now met they did compensate me to the tune of £50.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I think the different oil recommendations between UK and NZ Twin air Panda's is because NZ did not change to Euro 6 emission standards. From other posts it seems that one of the ways Fiat met the stricter Euro 6 standards was by reducing the oil viscosity from 5W-40 to 0W-30.
There's no mention in the NZ handbook to use the lower viscosity oil, 5W-40 C3 is the only oil grade listed.

May also be different climatic conditions?

 

[varesecrazy]

Vic. I have had no problems at all about passing emissions, I am very glad to say.

Me too, at 75k now,
this system Is an emission focussed design

 

[JayAre]

I would expect that there will have been a software change if the oil spec changed. My understanding is the Ow30 is only for the EUro 6 and the Euro 5 should / can stil run the other oil. In terms of engine life give me 5w40 any day over the thin stuff, but for the uniair system use the specified grade fro preference. I do wonder if the change is beneficial or detrimental to the longevity of the uniair module. Thinner oil is likely better for the actual working of the system though as more akin to striaght light hydraulic fluid. Its notable that when they changed the oil spec they halved the serice distance so oil changes are now 9000 miles not 18000. When I bought my first one (2017) the dealer couldnt tell me the service interval and said 18000. WHen I proved them wrong and complained my expected costs were not now met they did compensate me to the tune of £50.

so, the TA (in the Panda) was designed (launched 2010?) for 5W-40 grade?

That being the case, regardless of subsequently revised software, the complex UniAir mechanical system (and other parts of the engine?) must be optimised for the originally specified thicker grade.

Which begs the question:
if your TA is a ‘keeper’, are the engine mechanicals going to give longer trouble-free service with the original thicker grade oil?

Comment
The question is important for owners who (I suspect) are likely more concerned about their investment in their own vehicle (costing many £££) than compliance with an EU standard…

 

[The Panda Nut]

so, the TA (in the Panda) was designed (launched 2010?) for 5W-40 grade?

That being the case, regardless of subsequently revised software, the complex UniAir mechanical system (and other parts of the engine?) must be optimised for the originally specified thicker grade.

Which begs the question:
if your TA is a ‘keeper’, are the engine mechanicals going to give longer trouble-free service with the original thicker grade oil?

Comment
The question is important for owners who (I suspect) are likely more concerned about their investment in their own vehicle (costing many £££) than compliance with an EU standard…

You are missing the point I am trying to make, maybe not as concisely as I should... I recommend you read the leaflets that show how the system works in downloads if you havent done so as they are both enlightening and frightening!! Then you would see where Im am coming from. We all know its complex. It includes oil pressure, oil temerature and oil viscosity sensors / software. so these parameters are I think really critical. As the temperature and oil viscocity changes, these changes will not be in a straight line, the sofware takes both the readings from sensors and its map of the other parameters involved and adjusts both the extent of valve opening, and the valve timing to deliver optimum power. The base software map for different oils will be different. As the different oils respond differetnly the software must be set for each.

The engine will adjust its self to the oil sensor readings, but ay not be able to reach optimim of even correct operation if the oil, and the map of operating parameters dont match, so it may run OK most of the time, but fail at for example high of low temperatures.

I see your point about my statement on the design around the oil being spurious but its my understanding they worked with Petronas to fine tune the system for the Panda. Oils being now so specific to different engines, including the additives that go in after, and bearing in ind the fine tolerances and operating pressures needed to deal with this system I wouldnt muck with the oil at all. Like many things you can get away with stuff and use alternatives BUT beaing in mind we are talking small changes to affect the valve operation and massive impact if the valves dont operate as they need to, surely it is better to follow the specifications. I wouldnt really baulk at chucking most similar spec pils in any conventional engine, and put whatever I have in the Panda 1.2s as oils wil generally mix. EVen with the 1.2's I have had oil issues and the degree of startup chatter is very different from one to another. My punchline is really that the design and tolerances of the Uniair unit are more akin to recent formula one tech than nearly anything else and certainly everything else in the purchase price bracket and so I feel the oil spec if likely critical. If I had Euro 5 I wouldnt run the 0w30 unless I was certain the car had had a software update first. Maybe its my OCD but I think logic says dont stray at all with the oil spec when you know its not just providing lubrication but is a core factor in the valve timing. TIme will tell if I am right of if my TA fails later in life. I know one thing, while I love the engine and always marvel at its truly stunning performance charcteristics, particularly when towing half a ton up a steep hill, I am bloody terrified iof its going wrong and bankrupting me!!

Your point about using the thicker grade of oil is logical in inception but runs against the operation of the micrsopic computer controlled variable vale gear on the engine and I would still say stick with the very specific oil recommended. Not for the lubrication qualities as either would surely do that job, but definitely to keep the valves running exactly as they should. I ought to start and to run better this way.

PS I actually hate Petronas and wont have it ever again even in the 1.2s. Ive had my justified rant on them before. (Unless I was sold a fake product). SO me running the TA on it is a teller.

 

[jrkitching]

if your TA is a ‘keeper’, are the engine mechanicals going to give longer trouble-free service with the original thicker grade oil?

The key question is whether the real world oil temperature/viscosity characteristics of the oil you actually put in it matches the oil temperature/viscosity mapping in the software on your particular car. If it doesn't, it won't run properly, regardless of how well the oil might protect the engine against wear.

Any good quality oil changed regularly will protect against wear*, but the uniair unit won't work properly unless the viscosity of the oil at any given temperature matches what it's expecting.

I suggest you read the post above, together with the linked documents.

*all that said, wear on the uniair unit is a real cause for concern. Even with proper servicing with the correct oil, the experience of this forum is that it can fail at any time after around 40k-50k miles. Repair isn't possible; replacement is the only fix, and that will cost anywhere between £1000 (if you do all the work yourself) and at least £2000 if you take it to a competent garage. It's not a given; several folks have posted >100,000 miles without issues; but it's a definite risk that should not be trivialised by anyone contemplating the purchase of a used TA.

 

[KPat]

Interesting that Castrol specifically recommend a Magnatec oil for the Euro 6 Twinair and not the premium Edge product.

https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/BF0FF42CB7E48FF3802588BD004BA440/$File/wepp-cjaqxr.pdf

 

[JayAre]

Points noted.
Unless I’ve misunderstood, Fiat optimised the TA for 5W-40 during the development period (from the mid-2000s), years before Euro6, then subsequently (in order to preserve their investment in this engine) reworked the software to enable (as far as they could) the engine to deliver better economy/lower emissions to meet Euro6.

In other words, Fiat was ‘forced’ by the imposition of the new EU standard (Euro6) to move away from the thicker oil grade around which the TA engine was designed, many years before (otherwise they would have had to scrap the TA, just a few years into its service life - ouch!).

To me, that inevitably means ‘compromise’, because software (no matter how clever) does not change the mechanical physics of a complex assembly of specific materials, mechanisms, and oil distribution systems designed around a specific oil grade - 5W-40 (it can only adjust certain parameters, and within certain limits).

What I do not know is the extent of that compromise, but you don’t need to be especially perceptive to see that Fiat’s only concern would have been to achieve Euro6 compliance and avoid increased warranty claims - and reported higher failure rates after 50k miles would (I guess) have delivered Fiat’s remit…

The only way (I think) to understand what this means for customers with out-of-warranty higher mileage TA cars is they should compare the engine failure rate data of Euro5 (5W-40) and Euro6 (0W-30) TAs, but I suspect this comparison has not been done (assuming it is even feasible - and Fiat are not going to provide this!).

 

[euroben]

Points noted.
Unless I’ve misunderstood, Fiat optimised the TA for 5W-40 during the development period (from the mid-2000s), years before Euro6, then subsequently (in order to preserve their investment in this engine) reworked the software to enable (as far as they could) the engine to deliver better economy/lower emissions to meet Euro6.

In other words, Fiat was ‘forced’ by the imposition of the new EU standard (Euro6) to move away from the thicker oil grade around which the TA engine was designed, many years before (otherwise they would have had to scrap the TA, just a few years into its service life - ouch!).

To me, that inevitably means ‘compromise’, because software (no matter how clever) does not change the mechanical physics of a complex assembly of specific materials, mechanisms, and oil distribution systems designed around a specific oil grade - 5W-40 (it can only adjust certain parameters, and within certain limits).

What I do not know is the extent of that compromise, but you don’t need to be especially perceptive to see that Fiat’s only concern would have been to achieve Euro6 compliance and avoid increased warranty claims - and reported higher failure rates after 50k miles would (I guess) have delivered Fiat’s remit…

The only way (I think) to understand what this means for customers with out-of-warranty higher mileage TA cars is they should compare the engine failure rate data of Euro5 (5W-40) and Euro6 (0W-30) TAs, but I suspect this comparison has not been done (assuming it is even feasible - and Fiat are not going to provide this!).

I think you make a good argument- I’m going to stick to the 5W40 for my 2013 TA

 

[The Panda Nut]

Points noted.
Unless I’ve misunderstood, Fiat optimised the TA for 5W-40 during the development period (from the mid-2000s), years before Euro6, then subsequently (in order to preserve their investment in this engine) reworked the software to enable (as far as they could) the engine to deliver better economy/lower emissions to meet Euro6.

In other words, Fiat was ‘forced’ by the imposition of the new EU standard (Euro6) to move away from the thicker oil grade around which the TA engine was designed, many years before (otherwise they would have had to scrap the TA, just a few years into its service life - ouch!).

To me, that inevitably means ‘compromise’, because software (no matter how clever) does not change the mechanical physics of a complex assembly of specific materials, mechanisms, and oil distribution systems designed around a specific oil grade - 5W-40 (it can only adjust certain parameters, and within certain limits).

What I do not know is the extent of that compromise, but you don’t need to be especially perceptive to see that Fiat’s only concern would have been to achieve Euro6 compliance and avoid increased warranty claims - and reported higher failure rates after 50k miles would (I guess) have delivered Fiat’s remit…

The only way (I think) to understand what this means for customers with out-of-warranty higher mileage TA cars is they should compare the engine failure rate data of Euro5 (5W-40) and Euro6 (0W-30) TAs, but I suspect this comparison has not been done (assuming it is even feasible - and Fiat are not going to provide this!).

If we had that info it would indeed be useful. I love my TA but Im not going to short change it on oil as Im terrified it might go wrong. It might still go wrong but its so good I shall risk it. Depreciation to £0 as of today if it went for scrap is £2500 p.a. This will drop each year and it will soon not owe me much. Resale value is still good so Im sticking with it for the forseeable future. I need to think about a fighting fund for big repairs now. I do know a local 500TA that failed at 125000 but I have found out that was because some burk let a rag in the engine and that stuffed it. I would want a very full and comprehensive service history with a secondhand TA, hence mine has and will get dealer service for the forseeable. . I think driven regularly and sensibly they should last a good while. While it goes really well thrashing an 874cc twin pot motor is not going to make it last which again flags amber lights. Al D on here used to thrash his TA and it did seem to eat his money.....

 

[JayAre]

don’t think anyone here is looking to “short change” their beloved Pandas but to do the best for them (else why are we all here?)
The problem is there is genuine uncertainty as to what exactly is the best for them - heck, even Fiat servicing agents (and decent indies) get confused - especially when our cars are outside their warranty and we genuinely want to keep the TA engines running well to 100k and beyond
Had I known what I now know (thanks to this forum) about the TA I would have called it quits when I p/ex’d my beloved 1.2 169 4x4 back in May and got something else instead. But hindsight is 20 20 and so I now try to drive with the engine’s health uppermost, not for lugging ‘economy’ (but still, I’m averaging low 40s which suits me)

 

[Zapa]

Úgy gondolom, hogy az Egyesült Királyság és az NZ Twin air Panda's eltérő olajajánlások azért vannak, mert Új-Zéland nem változott az Euro 6 kibocsátási szabványokra. Más hozzászólásokból úgy tűnik, hogy a Fiat egyik módja annak, hogy megfelelt a szigorúbb Euro 6-os szabványoknak, az volt, hogy az olaj viszkozitását 5W-40-ről 0W-30-ra csökkentette.
Az új-zélandi kézikönyv nem tesz említést az alacsonyabb viszkozitású olaj használatáról, az 5W-40 C3 az egyetlen felsorolt olajfajta.

SAE 5W-40: Ez az olaj vastagabb és jobban ellenáll a magas hőmérsékletnek. Az "5W" azt jelenti, hogy jól teljesít alacsony hőmérsékleten, míg a "40" a viszkozitást jelzi magas hőmérsékleten.

SAE 0W-30: Ez az olaj vékonyabb és jobban ellenáll az alacsony hőmérsékletnek. A "0W" azt jelenti, hogy nagyon hideg időben jól folyik, míg a "30" a viszkozitást jelzi magas hőmérsékleten.

ACEA minősítés
ACEA C3: Ennek az olajnak magasabb a HTHS (High Temperature High Shear) viszkozitása, ami jobb védelmet nyújt a motornak magas hőmérsékleten és nagy terhelés mellett.

ACEA C2: Ennek az olajnak alacsonyabb a HTHS viszkozitása, ami jobb üzemanyag-fogyasztást biztosít, de kevésbé védi a motort nagy terhelés mellett.

Motorvédelem
SAE 5W-40 ACEA C3: Jobb védelmet nyújt a motornak magas hőmérsékleten és nagy terhelés mellett.

SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2: Jobb üzemanyag-fogyasztást biztosít, de kisebb védelmet nyújt nagy terhelés esetén.

Összességében, ha a motorvédelem az elsődleges szempont, akkor a SAE 5W-40 ACEA C3 lehet a jobb választás. Ha azonban az üzemanyag-fogyasztás az elsődleges szempont, akkor a SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2 előnyösebb lehet.

 

[Zapa]

SAE 5W-40: This oil is thicker and more resistant to high temperatures. The "5W" means it performs well at low temperatures, while the "40" indicates the viscosity at high temperatures.

SAE 0W-30: This oil is thinner and more resistant to low temperatures. The "0W" means it flows well in very cold weather, while the "30" indicates the viscosity at high temperatures.

ACEA Rating
ACEA C3: This oil has a higher HTHS (High Temperature High Shear) viscosity, which provides better protection for the engine at high temperatures and under heavy loads.

ACEA C2: This oil has a lower HTHS viscosity, which provides better fuel economy, but less protection for the engine under heavy loads.

Engine Protection
SAE 5W-40 ACEA C3: Provides better protection for the engine at high temperatures and under heavy loads, but less fuel economy.

SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2: Provides better fuel economy but less protection under heavy loads.

Overall, if engine protection is your primary concern, then SAE 5W-40 ACEA C3 may be the better choice. However, if fuel economy is your primary concern, then SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2 may be preferable.

The 0.9 twinair turbo engine is a really great little engine. In 2012 it was the engine of the year. But that doesn't mean it's not worth taking care of. I would also put 5W-40 C3 in the engine after 2016. This engine is very small, very dynamic in turbo mode, which puts a lot of strain on it. That's why I think it deserves some care, even in the form of a better oil. and on every other level. And I think you'll be grateful. I really like Fiats. They're good cars, but they need to be maintained, regularly, and they reward you with a long life and great operational reliability. None of my cars have ever let me down. I treat them with love, although hard, and I drive them a lot. (floor accelerator - floor brake) For me, changing the oil, oil filter, air filter, cabin filter costs about €60 + 2 hours of work. I repair everything on my cars myself, for 40 years. Only the technical examination is performed in a service center for €50/year.

 

[JayAre]

Hi @Zapa
Thanks for your replies - very factual+helpful
But something weird has happened. Your most recent post is in English and displays fine, and your previous post was also, but that post is now displaying in Hungarian including your quote from @Bergi NZ !

Fortunately you quoted your own post again in full, and that still reads in English, so all is well
Maybe it’s just my browser? (Safari) but very strange…

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi @Zapa
Thanks for your replies - very factual+helpful
But something weird has happened. Your most recent post is in English and displays fine, and your previous post was also, but that post is now displaying in Hungarian including your quote from @Bergi NZ !

Fortunately you quoted your own post again in full, and that still reads in English, so all is well
Maybe it’s just my browser? (Safari) but very strange…

It WAS all in UK English..
As I read it earlier

@ben might be able to assist here..?

 

[ben]

It WAS all in UK English..
As I read it earlier

@ben might be able to assist here..?

Sure. He edited it after to change it to Hungarian