Technical 2105 500 rear axle into 2007 Panda 169

[jrkitching]

The discussion about inconsistent back axle alignment on Fiats has made me notice that the car actually tracks better with its new axle than with the old one. So its likely one wheel (or both) was not properly aligned to the car body.

Somehow this doesn't surprise me; Panda 169's are notorious for having rear alignment issues.

Perhaps the 500 beam is made to tighter tolerances; if it weren't, we'd be seeing a shedload of posts in the 500 section regarding rear tyre wear, and we aren't.

FWIW, my 500 tracks much better at the rear than my Panda. That's only a single sample, but it concurs with what you have found.

 

[jrkitching]

I can see a whole host of problems. I'd love to have a play but far too much stuff to do.

Me too, on both counts.

I did have a go at measuring between the suspension tops. This morning's job for the 500 is retrieving a stuck tape measure from underneath the scuttle :bang:.

 

[DaveMcT]

Fiat keep everything as modular as they reasonably can. So when you find a rear ended 500 its likely the whole front end including engine will fit the 1969 Panda.

A nice project but TBH if I had the facilities for all that I'd be fitting a bike engine and Quaife differential. Or maybe building my own radial four cylinder 2 stroke DI engine. Dreams dreams.

Back to the real world. Work beckons.

 

[DaveMcT]

Fiat keep everything as modular as they reasonably can. So when you find a rear ended 500 its likely the whole front end including engine will fit the 169 Panda.

A nice project but TBH if I had the facilities for all that I'd be fitting a bike engine and Quaife differential. Or maybe building my own radial four cylinder 2 stroke DI engine. Dreams dreams.

Back to the real world. Work beckons.

 

[martroy]

I've managed to source a reasonable condition Panda rear axle which should see me right for a few years but thanks to you , DaveMcT , I had a Plan B available , which was sourcing a Fiat 500 rear axle.
So I had some time on my hands and I've compiled a list of possible donor cars for rust rear Panda's.
2004 - 2012 Fiat Panda ( 169 model ) :- straight swap
2007 - Fiat 500 ( models with rear drum brakes ) :- straight swap (see DaveMcT's postings), rear track will be 2" wider , stiffer torsion beam , standard skinny steel wheels compulsory.
2008 - 2015 Ford Ka ( models with rear drum brakes ) :- same as Fiat 500 above.
2011 - Lancia/Chrysler Ypsilon :- same as Fiat 500/Ford Ka but with bigger back drum brakes. ( This one's a bit left field but they are about and if you're desperate )
So there you are, my thanks to DaveMcT for starting me off on a bit of research. I'm guessing that any small car produced at the Polski Fiat factory Poland after 2003/2004 probably uses the Fiat Panda basic underpinnings and may therefore be a suitable donor.

 

[DaveMcT]

Now it's had chance to settle, my 2015 500 axle springs have settled. The sills are parallel to the floor and while it handles really well i don't like the look. I could simply refit the Panda springs but I expect it will be a harsh ride. A better option is spacers made up to put under the spring tops. Ive checked the breakers for 500 front springs but they all sell complete with struts so not an option for me.

Nylon spacers to fit the spring pans would be ideal as they'd remove a major source of corrosion (spring rubbing on pan) but that would be costly to say the least.

 

[frupi]

OK so here's the news.

A 2015 Fiat 500 rear axle fits straight onto a 2007 Fiat Panda.

I don't have a Panda 169 but an excellent thread all the same

I'm assuming that this axle set in the following link, would be a suitable replacement for anyone considering doing what you have done? Cheap too at £150 and very clean looking......

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/fiat-500-rear-axle-/222404518178?hash=item33c857a122:g:8awAAOSwJ7RYTXud

 

[jrkitching]

I'm assuming that this axle set in the following link, would be a suitable replacement for anyone considering doing what you have done? Cheap too at £150 and very clean looking......

It's an axle from a car with rear disc brakes. I'm not sure if they're interchangeable with drum braked versions.

Get 'em while they're still cheap, once the first 500 beams start rusting out the price can only rise.

At that price it would make a great upgrade for a pre-2010 model year 1.4 500; that's the later type axle with the stiffened beam, which noticeably improves the ride & handling. You'll need to replace the springs with the newer type, though.

 

[Gavv8]

It's an axle from a car with rear disc brakes. I'm not sure if they're interchangeable with drum braked versions.

Get 'em while they're still cheap, once the first 500 beams start rusting out the price can only rise.

At that price it would make a great upgrade for a pre-2010 model year 1.4 500; that's the later type axle with the stiffened beam, which noticeably improves the ride & handling. You'll need to replace the springs with the newer type, though.

Pretty sure the 500 axle is slightly wider than the '169' panda.

 

[jrkitching]

Pretty sure the 500 axle is slightly wider than the '169' panda.

It is. All covered in the relevant threads in the Panda section.

 

[tonyn]

DaveMcT,
Thanks you very much for taking the time and effort to post this brilliantly informed, interesting and detailed posting.
You sir are a credit to this forum
Top Man

 

[DaveMcT]

A quick update.

The car has now done at least 10,000 miles with its new axle.

The only (very slight) snag was it riding a little low at the back with 500 springs. As said earlier, the Panda road springs were MUCH too hard so were quickly swapped back.

I then had a brainwave and fitted the rubber cushions from the spring tops to the bottom as well. I had two sets after all.

Ride height with soft springs sorted. !!!

Rubber spring seats on BOTH ENDS fixed the ride height issue with no loss of suspension compliance.

I now have a 100HP and love its zippy nature but already miss the compliant rear axle on my wife's Panda.

 

[DaveMcT]

To add a bit more.

The Hammerite silver smooth I used on the 500 axle has coped well with only a few rusty stains. But for the huge hassle it is to paint it, I would absolutely have it galvanized if doing it again.

Hot dipping is the best bet, but you will need to remove the rubber pivot bushes and may have hassle cleaning out the mounts for refitting the bushes. You would also need a tool to extract the bushes. See here - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/23Pc-Front-Wheel-Drive-Bearing-Removal-Installation-Tool-Kit-UK/201908763630?epid=14011017343&hash=item2f02b33bee:g:UtwAAOSw~bFWMyBT:rk:3f:0


Zinc metal spray is a good next best to hot dip and what I used on the 100HP axle. It's more than good enough in the anti corrosion stakes but more hassle than dipping. But, you can keep the rubber bushes, just be sure to have them protected with "blast tape". The metal spray finish is quite rough so it is best painted over. I etch primed, normal primed and sprayed with Hammerite smooth. More cost and hassle but a job worth doing, etc.

The 100HP now has 500 rear springs with rubbers at both ends. It rides better though there is a little more body roll on bends.

 

[DaveMcT]

A bit more to add.

Early 500s had a wider axle but no anti roll bar. Later models had the ARB incorporated and softer road springs. The 2015 500 definitely has the ARB and softer springs

Apart from the 50mm wider track (25mm each side) and ARB, the 500 axle is identical to the Panda 169 and will fit as a direct swap.

The 169 road springs are horrible with 500 axle. It rides like there are no springs under the car. Use the 500 springs with the rubber top seats at both ends. This maintains the ride height and the rubber protects the axle spring pans.

When you fit the rear dampers fit the tops first but leave the bolts loose. The bolts have self cleaning threads and will easily go cross-thread. The bottom bolts are also self cleaning but cannot go cross thread. Fully tighten the top bolts after fitting the bottom bolts. Fully tighten the bottom bolts after the car is back on the wheels. This prevents the rubber bushes being over stressed.

500 front subframes are different to the 169 Panda so I guess that's where they find the 50mm wider track. Even if they would fit the 169 body shell its likely the top mounts are further apart.

Anything is "possible" but to all practical purposes the 500 front subframe cannot be used on the 169 Panda.

 

[AAB1992]

How do you find the rubber pads at the bottom of the spring. Do you have any issues with drainage?

 

[DaveMcT]

No problem. The spring pads are a grooved donut not much bigger than the spring itself. The centre is open just as it always was. The big win is no metal to metal grinding between the spring and axle.

 

[DaveMcT]

Our Panda with 500 axle has now had two MOTs and wheel alignments. Tyre grip excepted, it handles almost as well as the 100HP and is probably faster to drive over bumpy roads because the car is much more compliant.

It has the basic 13" steel wheels but the 14" alloys would fit. The 100HP wheels would not fit but they are expensive and buckle too easily on bad roads.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I’d not seen this before, looks like you did a good job, probably would have benefitted from a good spray with dinitrol rust inhibitors anywhere there was a cavity or where you couldn’t get a brush in, but all said and done it should probably outlast the car now.

An interesting point about the bits of surface rust appearing on the metal when it was only a year old, this is common on almost all cars, the only difference I think is the very thin metal used on tue spring cups, other cars like the punto which use essentially the same set up for their back axle don’t ever seem to suffer the same problems

 

[DaveMcT]

It's an axle from a car with rear disc brakes. I'm not sure if they're interchangeable with drum braked versions.

The 100HP (disc brake) axle and wheel spindle castings are identical to the 1.1/1.2 (drum brake) rear axle.

The beam and hub spindles would work on a non disc brake car but you would need to swap the brakes over. I got the axle complete with hand brake cables, shocks & brakes for £160 and - they threw in the springs for nothing! I did have a long drive but the complete 500 axle will go into the back of a 169 Panda with the passenger seat pushed forwards.

 

[DaveMcT]

I’d not seen this before, looks like you did a good job, probably would have benefitted from a good spray with dinitrol rust inhibitors anywhere there was a cavity or where you couldn’t get a brush in, but all said and done it should probably outlast the car now.

The axle is really thick metal 3mm at least so internal corrosion is not an issue.

The cross beam is U-shape with the ARB torsion tube inside. You could fill the swing arm tubes with white spirits thinned chain saw oil and pour out the excess. It drys to a sticky goo and protects metal very well. But its not really needed as the open ended arms hang down for drainage.

After two years the silver Hammerite is showing some rust stains. The original paint rust stains were cleaned with angle grinder & wire brush and etch primed. So much for "rust proof" Hammerite paints.

I had the 100HP axle grit blasted and zinc metal sprayed for £80. A bit more cost than the paint, but MUCH less hassle and the pivot blocks don't need to be done.