Technical 1995 Fiat Ducato Hymer 2.5 diesel motorhome

[mancalledhorse]

I have looked at the photos, perhaps some more than others.

Please check fuses, as suggested by @bugsymike

The orange and blue wires appear to be pushed into a two way socket? Yes/No?

If yes then the original connections to the pump, with mating half connector are missing.

I can see no reason for two wires on the waxstat, which will probably use earth return via the pump body.

The orange wire is significant, as I have seen that colour wire shown on a diagram, as connected to the relevant terminal of the ignition switch.

So inline with your suggestion remove the orange wire from the waxstat, and then test the wire for 12V with ignition on, and also with switch in starting position. There must be no 12V when ignition switch is off.

If all OK connect orange wire to stop solenoid, then test starting and stopping of engine.

Given positive results, the supply to the waxstat should be checked.

If as seems to be the case, the orange and blue wires are just pushed into the half AMP Superseal Connector, then this connection must be improved. If the connection should separate the vehicle will lose power. Not something that you want. At the very least securely tape over the connection. Amp Superseal Connectors for various wire sizes should be available from Ebay, or elsewhere.

Hi Communicator,


I've checked the fuses in the cab, opposite passengers front seat and the ones on the left side of the engine but all seem ok, is it possible a relay could be faulty?
I did check them all last year but could check again? Just can't understand why there is no voltage on that orange wire? Yes from one bunch of wires, protected by the plastic sheathing, it then splits into four wires two going to the connector in pic two and two wires going to the waxstat near the pump. But may be only the blue wire should be going to the waxstat next to pump, not sure? Should there be a 12v wire going to the Waxstat near the pump?
Maybe its the orange wire that should fit over the stud end on the start solenoid and then locked down with a nut? I have tested these wires both blue and orange wires for a 12v voltage with ignition on and no voltage is present, will check with someone cranking engine tomorrow see if there is a 12v voltage present. The orange wire is the only wire with the correct fitting on the end to fit over the threaded stud on the start solenoid but no voltage there, unless there is a hidden fuse somewhere, which is broken?
Regarding the orange wire, its a good possibility that I maybe have put it on the waxstat last year thinking that's where it came from, as this has been going on so long.


Thank you so much for your help, will definitely take on-board what you said regarding the Amp Superseal Connector.
I will continue looking tomorrow,

Kind regards,
Karl

 

[bugsymike]

I may be wrong , but I wouldn't have thought it would need a relay to just operate that solenoid.
Also power to the correct wire should be on with ignition and not only with cranking, otherwise it would defeat the object of keeping the engine running once you release the key /starter side.

 

[mancalledhorse]

Thanks @jackwhoo I couldn't make it out with my eyesight, so it probably had a round connector before the nut came off the solenoid as originally used?

Hi Mike, I will take a clear pic of start solenoid tomorrow with some connectors, there is a connector of wires which then goes into two relays, so I was wondering if one could be the start relay? and if yes then maybe it was from that connector, will test these tomorrow!


Kind regards,
Karl

 

[Communicator]

It is difficult to trace wires without a diagram, even when the vehicle is in front of you. Almost impossible when you are miles away.

I still favour your suggestion regarding the orange wire, for reasons previously stated. Also if you follow the link in post #16 to Motor Roam, you can see that the waxstat on their 2.8idTD has only one wire attached.

Unless it is an earth connection, which I consider most unlikely, the orange wire should be live at some time. It is in the correct area, close to the pump. It is not part of other electrical systems i.e. lights, wipers etc. Possibly there is another fuse hidden somewhere, but that does not seem right.
My experience with relays is considerable. I have played, designed and built circuits for, worked with in several disciplines, and played again over many years. Rarely is it the relay that fails, but it can happen.
I agree with Bugseymike's suggestion that a relay is unlikely to be included in the circuit.

I do not wish to tell you what to do, just to make suggestions. Is it possible to check the other end of the circuit, by gaining access to the ignition switch, where I have previously suggested pin 2 of the 3way connector as being a likely starting point. If the connected wire is orange, and is live in both the ON, and START positions, it would tend to confirm your theory.

 

[Communicator]

Hi Mike, I will take a clear pic of start solenoid tomorrow with some connectors, there is a connector of wires which then goes into two relays, so I was wondering if one could be the start relay? and if yes then maybe it was from that connector, will test these tomorrow!


Kind regards,
Karl

The x230 model used a relay between the starter motor solenoid and the ignition switch. Presumably the intention would be to reduce the load on the ignition switch, and to provide a more direct supply to the starter motor solenoid. The "stop" solenoind cannot be connected to this relay, as output is only available when actually starting the engine.

This is one of the two sections of engine wiring shown on a diagram, the other relates to glowplugs which I believe are not used on the 8140.47 engine. I am attaching a copy of the Starting and Charging diagram, on which the ignition switch ais at top left corner. There is no wire shown on pin 2 of the 3 way connector, only because it is not used on that diagram.

 

[Communicator]

Attached is another diagram extracted from the German workshop manual in the downloads section.
Clearly not really applicable to the 8140.47 engine, as it shows an injection pump containing electronic components, and glowplugs.

However the important part is that pin 2 of the 3 way connector on the ignition switch connects to the injection pump. If you examine the wiring details on the RHS of the diagram, the connecting wire is orange in colour.

 

[mancalledhorse]

Attached is another diagram extracted from the German workshop manual in the downloads section.
Clearly not really applicable to the 8140.47 engine, as it shows an injection pump containing electronic components, and glowplugs.

However the important part is that pin 2 of the 3 way connector on the ignition switch connects to the injection pump. If you examine the wiring details on the RHS of the diagram, the connecting wire is orange in colour.

Hi Mike,
Thanks for your reply with the elec dwgs attached!
So it does look like that orange wire should be connected on the starter solenoid valve, I will have to continue to trace the orange wire back. I did start it yesterday and it seems to go through the passenger side of engine, up through the cab, will continue with this to see if I can see it and see why it has no voltage.
I was also testing for a 12v power supply at different wire connectors, found some that had a 12v on the wire, with ignition on and ov with ignition off. So thought great, maybe I can use that. But when connected my test wire to it and the start solenoid, it wouldn't start engine??
I also connected the test wire directly to the ignition wire and it started the engine but sounded not great starting it. But again the engine remains running when I switch off the ignition.

Someone did tell me that it could be the ignition as they can go faulty but I'm not sure at the moment if this is the case, as I need to get a voltage on that orange wire and get it connected to the start solenoid!

Much appreciated for all your help!
Thank you,
Regards,
Karl

 

[mancalledhorse]

Hi Mike,
Thanks for your reply with the elec dwgs attached!
So it does look like that orange wire should be connected on the starter solenoid valve, I will have to continue to trace the orange wire back. I did start it yesterday and it seems to go through the passenger side of engine, up through the cab, will continue with this to see if I can see it and see why it has no voltage.
I was also testing for a 12v power supply at different wire connectors, found some that had a 12v on the wire, with ignition on and ov with ignition off. So thought great, maybe I can use that. But when connected my test wire to it and the start solenoid, it wouldn't start engine??
I also connected the test wire directly to the ignition wire and it started the engine but sounded not great starting it. But again the engine remains running when I switch off the ignition.

Someone did tell me that it could be the ignition as they can go faulty but I'm not sure at the moment if this is the case, as I need to get a voltage on that orange wire and get it connected to the start solenoid!

Much appreciated for all your help!
Thank you,
Regards,
Karl

Sorry meant to read thank you Communicator!! for all your continued help/info with elect drwgs! But thank you to everyone for all your help!
Will continue to trace orange wire back!

 

[bugsymike]

Sorry meant to read thank you Communicator!! for all your continued help/info with elect drwgs! But thank you to everyone for all your help!
Will continue to trace orange wire back!

Yes I was going to say @Communicator, I have only just got home , been spending the day with daughter and grand daughter.

 

[mancalledhorse]

Yes I was going to say @Communicator, I have only just got home , been spending the day with daughter and grand daughter.

Lol....I mixed up there!! Glad you been having a nice time with your family Happy Easter!

 

[mancalledhorse]

Sorry meant to read thank you Communicator!! for all your continued help/info with elect drwgs! But thank you to everyone for all your help!
Will continue to trace orange wire back!

Happy Easter!

 

[mancalledhorse]

Hi Mike and Communicator,
Someone told me that it could be the ignition, so I had a look at the wires and found one which is orange and black, this one had a 12V on it, with ignition on and 0v with ignition off, pics 1,2 and 3. Because this voltage was present, I thought maybe its not an ignition problem.

I continued to trace the original orange wire from the engine back into the cab. Two bunches of wires came into the cab, through separate holes. The orange wire bunch went into a connector then out the other side with a green wire pic 4, which then looped back round to another orange wire and joined the other bunch of wires and back into the engine. I couldn't understand why it went back out to the engine through the other wires?

When I checked, the orange wire went to the alarm connector, which the travelling mechanic disconnected because the alarm went off while he was checking.
I did mention to him that I need to press the button on the key fob to switch it off then again to attempt to start the engine.
But he chose to dismantle it, so I assumed it wasn't needed to start the engine. Trouble is that key fob button is so worn sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, have to keep pressing it.

I apologise to everyone who helped me that I did not mention this to you all at the start, as I didn't think it was relevant, as it was dismantled.
So I decided to put it back on incase it did need it and to then see if the 12v was present on that orange wire now connected on to the solenoid.
The great news is that the 12v was present, so I turned the ignition and it started the engine, then I thought fingers crossed it stops the engine when I turn ignition off, and it did, It's now starting and stopping!! So I'm now very happy it's working as it should be!
There is still plenty of work to do, must try to remember where everything went.!!!.. I've got the elect step to have a look at next.

A big thank you Mike and Communicator and all involved with helping me, really appreciate all your help!

Thank you,
Kind regards,
Karl

 

[bugsymike]

I am glad between us all, you have been able to get to the bottom of the problem and MH is a runner again after all that time.
It's a pity your "traveling mechanic" set you off on the wrong path at the beginning as you mentioned at the start of your thread, you could have spent a large amount of money on injector pump and injectors unnecessarily, so it doesn't sound like he had much experience of older diesel systems.
Apart from that, your issues with after market alarm systems only confirms my thoughts on them.

 

[Communicator]

Hi Mike and Communicator,
Someone told me that it could be the ignition, so I had a look at the wires and found one which is orange and black, this one had a 12V on it, with ignition on and 0v with ignition off, pics 1,2 and 3. Because this voltage was present, I thought maybe its not an ignition problem.

I continued to trace the original orange wire from the engine back into the cab. Two bunches of wires came into the cab, through separate holes. The orange wire bunch went into a connector then out the other side with a green wire pic 4, which then looped back round to another orange wire and joined the other bunch of wires and back into the engine. I couldn't understand why it went back out to the engine through the other wires?

When I checked, the orange wire went to the alarm connector, which the travelling mechanic disconnected because the alarm went off while he was checking.
I did mention to him that I need to press the button on the key fob to switch it off then again to attempt to start the engine.
But he chose to dismantle it, so I assumed it wasn't needed to start the engine. Trouble is that key fob button is so worn sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, have to keep pressing it.

I apologise to everyone who helped me that I did not mention this to you all at the start, as I didn't think it was relevant, as it was dismantled.
So I decided to put it back on incase it did need it and to then see if the 12v was present on that orange wire now connected on to the solenoid.
The great news is that the 12v was present, so I turned the ignition and it started the engine, then I thought fingers crossed it stops the engine when I turn ignition off, and it did, It's now starting and stopping!! So I'm now very happy it's working as it should be!
There is still plenty of work to do, must try to remember where everything went.!!!.. I've got the elect step to have a look at next.

A big thank you Mike and Communicator and all involved with helping me, really appreciate all your help!

Thank you,
Kind regards,
Karl

Hi Karl,
I also am pleased at your success. It does illustrate my feelings that you have to be as precise as StarTrtek's Mr Spock, when dealing with such matters on forum. Electric steps are no great mystery, if they do not use the posh single button control..

 

[mancalledhorse]

Hi Karl,
I also am pleased at your success. It does illustrate my feelings that you have to be as precise as StarTrtek's Mr Spock, when dealing with such matters on forum. Electric steps are no great mystery, if they do not use the posh single button control..

Hi Communicator , Thank you!
Yes I will be like Mr Spock in the future..... Lesson learned not to leave anything out
Will let you know how I get on with step! I couldn't have got this motorhome started but for your help and Mikes help, I'm so grateful!

Thank you,
Kind regards,
Kind

 

[mancalledhorse]

I am glad between us all, you have been able to get to the bottom of the problem and MH is a runner again after all that time.
It's a pity your "traveling mechanic" set you off on the wrong path at the beginning as you mentioned at the start of your thread, you could have spent a large amount of money on injector pump and injectors unnecessarily, so it doesn't sound like he had much experience of older diesel systems.
Apart from that, your issues with after market alarm systems only confirms my thoughts on them.

Hi Mike,
It's been a long while and its back running, which is a great feeling.
Yes I dread to think had I messed around with the fuel injection pump and injectors!! would have been very expensive and probably lots of bits left over....
Yeah I originally thought you needed the key fob but when mechanic disconnected alarm and tried to start engine, I assumed he knows best.

Thanks Mike and everyone involved! I could never have started this motor without your continued help and perseverance
will take a look at the step next!

Thank you,

Kind regards,
Karl

 

[Duffy1948]

It will depend on which engine you have, do you know what engine Series etc.
Firstly what were the original symptoms? It does sound a little like your mechanic is hedging his bets. Pump failure is rare and on older engines like this, unlike a single injector stopping a modern common rail engine, one injector failing would be like a single spark plug on a petrol engine failing, it would still start and run albeit lumpy and very unlikely for all four to fail at the same time.
What make injector pump is it? Depending on make is how to lock it, the Bosch one there is a bolt at the top front nearest the belt end that you take the plate out and the bolt goes in deeper to lock it. Double check all this as it was some time ago.
Does it have an electrical solenoid on it and is there power getting to it when ignition is on? I am assuming at that age there is no actual immobiliser fitted. Assuming the engine is still all together, if power to the solenoid assuming this isn't really old with a "kill" cable, I would remove the solenoid and needle valve to test operation and whilst it is out work the hand primer on the auxiliary pump and fuel should come out where the solenoid was fitted.
This is probably enough to be getting on with. I have included a 1995 Data manual plus cam belt timing data for the later model 2.8 Ducato and for the Iveco version as it goes back to 2000 and the 2.5 is similar to the early 2.8. Check the engine Series numbers for comparison.
Note there are often different length cam belts and pulley sizes so check exactly what you remove and if the later style be 100% sure how you reassemble spacers etc around the cover where it affects the timing tensioner. After fitting belt correctly turn engine by hand at least two full revolutions before trying to start engine as if wrong it doesn't just bend the valves , it does the con rods also!!!

Hi Bugsmike.
I was wondering if you might have data /information for Fiat 1995 2.5 TDS, Q14 with an 8140.47 engine. A motorhome so a chassis/bus sent to Hymer.

[email protected]

Many thanks,
Edward

 

[Duffy1948]

Hi Mike,
It's been a long while and its back running, which is a great feeling.
Yes I dread to think had I messed around with the fuel injection pump and injectors!! would have been very expensive and probably lots of bits left over....
Yeah I originally thought you needed the key fob but when mechanic disconnected alarm and tried to start engine, I assumed he knows best.

Thanks Mike and everyone involved! I could never have started this motor without your continued help and perseverance
will take a look at the step next!

Thank you,

Kind regards,
Karl

I think I have been in that boat many times.

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Bugsmike.
I was wondering if you might have data /information for Fiat 1995 2.5 TDS, Q14 with an 8140.47 engine. A motorhome so a chassis/bus sent to Hymer.

[email protected]

Many thanks,
Edward

I was going to say no, but I do have some on the mechanical side from my 2012 AutoData Manual if of any use.
Others on Forum are more Fiat specific, I mostly had Iveco Daily's with that and the later 2.8 engines.

 

[Duffy1948]

Hi Bugsmike.
I was wondering if you might have data /information for Fiat 1995 2.5 TDS, Q14 with an 8140.47 engine. A motorhome so a chassis/bus sent to Hymer.

[email protected]

Many thanks,
Edward

Hi many thanks for the information.

My first time trying to print off from the site.
Could you give a clue as I can not find where to start.
Edward.