Tuning 1368cc 16V FIRE Turbo (T-Jet) Uno conversion

[Louie Bee]

You know new makes sense

Do all the dials work on the Bravo dash? Is it not as easy as isolating the circuits from the new dash and retro fitting the hardware behind the Uno dash, and if needed cutting the needles down to size and photoshopping the matching scales onto a scan of the Uno dash layout ready fro screen printing? I bet you wish it were that easy.

I'm surprised AlexGS hasn't offered a complete argument, solution and summary on your dash issue I'll have to report this post to grab his attention [/challenge]

Off topic, did you get my pm about the gear linkage and Panda Data?

Edit It don't seem to be in my sent items :S

 

[lewey]

You know new makes sense

Do all the dials work on the Bravo dash? Is it not as easy as isolating the circuits from the new dash and retro fitting the hardware behind the Uno dash, and if needed cutting the needles down to size and photoshopping the matching scales onto a scan of the Uno dash layout ready fro screen printing? I bet you wish it were that easy.

I'm surprised AlexGS hasn't offered a complete argument, solution and summary on your dash issue I'll have to report this post to grab his attention [/challenge]

Off topic, did you get my pm about the gear linkage and Panda Data?

Edit It don't seem to be in my sent items :S

Didn't get PM. Have got one you just sent though. I think you are probably right that I will end up trying to use the bravo dash behind the original dash. I don't know if you realise, but the modern dashes are very finely engineered, single board network enabled affairs these days. You can't separate the electronic parts at all. You would need some serious equipment/knowledge/skill to consider chopping the board and running the network/power lines between them. Anyway, the solution if I don't find one electronically is going to be to de-solder the stepper motors from the board of the Bravo dash that spin the needles and run lengths of wire from the board to the motors, which I will mount behind in the original positions as you suggest. I will then just tape the circuit board up behind it all somewhere in one piece. I will need to be careful not to de-solder everything when I take them off as the components are all surface mount with tiny solder connections. I can only try! I am only thinking of using RPM at the moment as temp is easy to get and the scale is so different in the Uno compared to Bravo.

 

[alexGS]

Exactly what I was thinking (about the way modern instrument clusters are basically a networked computer with custom motor drives)... I learned about this nightmare when my Mk2 Punto cluster developed a software problem (or something!) - microcontroller resetting itself - bloody impossible to fix, could only get a vague impression of what was happening by monitoring the data bus lines. You just know that all the logic is buried in the firmware. Had to shell out for a new cluster, $1200 (the price of a really tidy Uno

Sorry Louie but I really couldn't see an easy/elegant answer to this one... And glad you didn't report the post, I *am* here!

Especially as the speedometer is probably relying on a speed signal from the ABS ECU (most modern designs do...) I think the idea of remote-mounting the gauge motors (not even stepper motors; difficult to design circuitry for, but cheap to make) is the most realistic. Just use an Uno Turbo Mk2 cluster as the 'pretty face' with a proto board etc. screwed on to mount the motors. Hope the sweeps of fuel and temp gauges are appropriate.

-Alex

 

[thunderfox5]

Especially as the speedometer is probably relying on a speed signal from the ABS ECU (most modern designs do...)

Where did you learn this Alex?

In all cars that I know (most of them are FIAT anyway) the speedometer relies only on the signal that is read by the ECU from the VSS sensor, in the gearbox. The only exception being those who are still cable driven (like the Cinq and older Puntos and the Uno).

If you were to replace the dash with the T-Jet dash and ECU, and you had a VSS sensor, you could get readings. The ABS works on a completely separate system which gets data from the VSS sensor in the same manner as the dash does, and also gets data from individual ABS sensors in the hubs!

 

[lewey]

Where did you learn this Alex?

In all cars that I know (most of them are FIAT anyway) the speedometer relies only on the signal that is read by the ECU from the VSS sensor, in the gearbox. The only exception being those who are still cable driven (like the Cinq and older Puntos and the Uno).

If you were to replace the dash with the T-Jet dash and ECU, and you had a VSS sensor, you could get readings. The ABS works on a completely separate system which gets data from the VSS sensor in the same manner as the dash does, and also gets data from individual ABS sensors in the hubs!

This is not the case, unfortunately.

Obviously, it depends what era of cars we are talking about, but all FIATs brought to market after 1999 and use ABS, which became all FIATs in 2005 (or there abouts), use the wheel sensors to get speed via the ABS ECU on the CAN network. The ABS does have a separate ECU, but the speed info is put by it onto the CAN network and that is interpreted by the body computer and displayed on the dashboard. I've gone quite far into trying to use the new style VSS sensors on an old hub. It basically isn't going to happen without serious milling and using a modern wheel bearing or a whole modern hub assembly. I use a normal FIAT gearbox sensor on my modded classic Panda, linked to a general purpose motorsport speedo, which is fine. Trying to use this input in any of the logical places in the body ECU does not work. I've really, really tried. It's going to be very hard to re-create the FIAT network signal for speed and then drive a normal speedo. I'm quite good with electronics and computers, but I know when to give up.

I agree that you could use a dash complete if the donor car had software to use a gearbox sensor from manufacture. Problem is, none of the FIAT cars ever made with a decent modern engine (any 1.4 16v engine for example) is without ABS.

 

[thunderfox5]

Well, I know for a fact that Punto MK2 1.2 and 1.4 as well as the Stilo still use the VSS sensor, even if they have ABS. I also know for a fact, unfortunately, that their electronics can't handle a turbo on their own, and that they need at least the VSS sensor and crankshaft position sensor working for the instrumentation to work.

Best effort would be to do away with all the T-jet electronics, in favour of a Megasquirt or something like that. At least you still can, with a Uno. Not as easy on a Punto where you need all instruments to still work digitally.

 

[lewey]

Well, I know for a fact that Punto MK2 1.2 and 1.4 as well as the Stilo still use the VSS sensor, even if they have ABS. I also know for a fact, unfortunately, that their electronics can't handle a turbo on their own, and that they need at least the VSS sensor and crankshaft position sensor working for the instrumentation to work.

It seems as if our facts are totally different to each other. Discounting 1.2s and talking about 1.4 16v N/A or turbo FIRE engines; they all use ABS sensors for speed. You couldn't get a Stilo or Punto with a 1.4 16v engine and no ABS. Look at ePer and try to find the gearbox sensor for these cars. It shows a plastic plug in all cases. I know these car's electronics intimately and spent many months making a loom for my Panda project (Punto Mk2 1.4 16v) after pouring over wiring diagrams. The only thing I can think of is that there is a regional variation (presume you are talking about Portuguese cars).

Best effort would be to do away with all the T-jet electronics, in favour of a Megasquirt or something like that. At least you still can, with a Uno. Not as easy on a Punto where you need all instruments to still work digitally.

I think this is a matter of opinion. The arguments are always heavily stacked towards 3rd party management, but I've never read of anyone using standard FIAT management from the network era of electronics, so I don't see how people can compare. I've done both and my preference is towards the manufacturer's stuff as it produces the most reliable result and is much quicker and cheap to get going.

 

[thunderfox5]

Although I haven't personally looked up the Punto 1.4 myself, just going off assumption that it is the same as the Stilo. A friend of mine has a Stilo 1.4 that has the VSS sensor, we've been pondering on using the said Stilo for experiments

As for the Megasquirt opinion, it goes from my experience. I'm running my Punto 1.2 with a turbo using stock management, and it's no good. But I can't do away with the ECU completely, otherwise nothing would work. And nothing else will pair itself to the rest of the instrumentation.

If I was in your place, I would definitely give it all up for a completely aftermarket solution. With a Punto, it's impossible.

 

[lewey]

Although I haven't personally looked up the Punto 1.4 myself, just going off assumption that it is the same as the Stilo. A friend of mine has a Stilo 1.4 that has the VSS sensor, we've been pondering on using the said Stilo for experiments

Why assume, when you can look it up so easily? All wiring diagrams are available. You may waste a lot of time trying to get a gearbox sensor to work with these electronics.

As for the Megasquirt opinion, it goes from my experience. I'm running my Punto 1.2 with a turbo using stock management, and it's no good. But I can't do away with the ECU completely, otherwise nothing would work. And nothing else will pair itself to the rest of the instrumentation.

If I was in your place, I would definitely give it all up for a completely aftermarket solution. With a Punto, it's impossible.

Your comparison is a turbo engine running a N/A 1.2 ECU or using 3rd party electronics. No wonder you think 3rd party is the way to go. This is not the comparison I was talking about! This is not you talking from experience! My Uno uses the correct turbo electronics from a Bravo 150 T-Jet, so obviously runs perfectly. Have you seen any of my cars run in videos? They run exquisitely.

 

[thunderfox5]

You misunderstood what I meant. I'll explain again.

Given the choice between keeping a stock ECU, or adding in another one that won't run your instruments (be it a megasquirt or the one from the Bravo), it's obvious that you can't use your stock stuff on the Uno, the same way I can't on the Punto. Given the choice though, you're always better off with the aftermarket ECU rather than the one off the Bravo. At least the Megasquirt will allow for more generic stuff to be installed (after all it has digital outputs and tacho signal and etc) than the Bravo ECU will. You can't touch the Bravo ECU as far as it's inner methods go. You said it yourself, considering you can't get it to read speed because you don't have the ABS sensors, if that's how they work for the Bravo.

With the megasquirt, or any generic solution, this wouldn't be a problem. If the Uno instrumentation works by analogic signals such as PWM, you might even get away with all the stock instruments working. You stand a better chance than me on that matter, seeing as all my instrumentation is CAN driven.

But hey, I'm not trying to tell you how to run your own project, just my two pence. You do what you think is best

 

[lewey]

If that's what you meant, then I agree you can get analogue gauge outputs from a 3rd party ECU easier. I just think the advice to rip out a wonderfully running, reliable, fuel efficient, immobilised system and replace with another just because I haven't worked out how to show RPM on my Uno gauge yet is not the best idea. I appreciate the interest, but I just strongly disagree with the logic. You won't convince me on this one, so perhaps let's just leave it there.

Cheers

 

[thunderfox5]

Like I said before, not trying to convince you or tell you what to do with your own project. That's just the logical way for me.

A car can run on the streets without immobilizer, and fuel efficiency can be had from a properly programmed ECU. A car can't run without it's dials though, not over here at least!

I'll leave you to do your thing then

I thought this was gonna be a track car?

 

[le1gh]

is the t jet gear box ? as the same punto gt electronic set up ? as i have fitted the gt box on my uno an got the speedo working ,,
i had to cut the sensor up on the gt an marry up the two an also make up bit of metel to slot into both ends (gearbox an speedo cable )as i remeber correctly ,,

 

[lewey]

is the t jet gear box ? as the same punto gt electronic set up ? as i have fitted the gt box on my uno an got the speedo working ,,
i had to cut the sensor up on the gt an marry up the two an also make up bit of metel to slot into both ends (gearbox an speedo cable )as i remeber correctly ,,

See posts 147-149.

 

[randomizered]

Hows it all going Lewey?

On the management system front, I find it fresh and innovative what you are doing personally.

If you can get the engine and all required associated ECU's etc at a reasonable price it makes it factory reliable, still honking out a ton more power than from the factory, and is also a challenge.

I personally like megasquirt, but that purely as I'm into electronics, mapping, and I like the fiddling aspect. Plus I can evolve it and fix it should it go wrong.

I'm all for the aftermarket, but love what u'r up too equally as much. I know once it was all running though, I'd be itching to fiddle and rip it out again haha. Seems like you sort that by moving onto an equally intersting new project :slayer:
Kristian

 

[lewey]

It's going fine thanks Kristian. Thanks also for a different viewpoint on what I am doing. For the record, I like Megasquirt and other 3rd party solutions too. I don't need their flexibility, so considering my management was £100 all in, it is difficult to justify the expense. I realise I am in the minority here though as for many people 3rd party is actually their only solution that isn't crap.

I have a solution to the rev counter issue:



I managed to remove all the motors from the Bravo dashboard. I used the speedo and fuel gauge motors as practice as I didn't care for them (or at least their function) and I got good at it just in time to cleanly remove the temperature and rev counter motors. I simply removed the UT rev counter mech and bolted the Bravo motor to the UT dash and put wires to the Bravo circuit board. Very, very fiddly and high risk when soldering with a pretty crap iron that I have. Deciding whether to use the water temp motor now or cut my losses with what I have as ultimately I can get temp from a normal sensor in the top rad hose easily enough and use original UT gauge. This current setup works as it as, tested with engine running. The rev scale is the same in both cars which is pretty nice!

This is what I like to call "precision bodging".

In other matters, I retapped the thread in my rear hub with the wrong pitch thread. M12x1.5 (fine) instead of M12x1.25 (very fine). Ruined a large amount of bolts before I noticed. Very poor show. Need new set of bolts practically and new hub. MOT will have to wait again whilst new parts arrive.

Booked a trackday at Donnigton Park (GP circuit) on 22nd August. Desperate for more testing and fun in this.

 

[randomizered]

haha, great stuff....precision bodging...my new philosophy in life

I don't' have the kit anymore, but I've done lots of low level soldering before, SMT, BGA, etc. so if you ever get stuck or want some help or advice i'm a PM or not too far

 

[lewey]

Got an MOT last weekend and have been thinking about some small improvements in plumbing and electrics that I need to make before a trackday on 22nd Aug and I suppose Mitcar the weekend before.

I still have a drivibility issue to sort. I have included a screen shot from FIATECUScan that graphically demonstrates the problem. When the car is warm or has been caned for a little bit, there is an issue with the throttle butterfly where it seems to be stuck open. The graph proves that with no throttle pedal input, a generous 13% throttle is kept up and the revs are sustained whilst the car maintains speed without my say so. It takes a good 20 mins from cold for the symptoms to start and once it starts, you notice it every time you change gear over 4000RPM. As you dip the clutch, the revs shoot to 5 or 6000. If you don't drive fast, the problem stays hidden. If you brake enough to overcome the engine and you pull the revs down to around 3000, the revs then fall away normally.

You can see the problem demonstrated 4 times (1st and 3rd are best) in the graph. I was deliberately provoking the issue on a quiet dual carriageway by revving up to 4500RPM in 3rd and then letting go of the throttle pedal, eventually braking to stop the problem and then repeating.

I believe this issue is what was causing my brakes to be on fire at Oulton Park.

 

[lewey]

I have swapped over the throttle body for another one, but have yet to test as I got annoyed with the silly low intercooler and have almost finished an alternative charge-cooling system.

It's an air to water charge-cooler I bought second hand last year. To fit it though, I've had to remove the original header tank. This is to be replaced with an AGP/Mito item that I am still trying to place. The system has a little alloy header and an electric water pump that runs with the ignition. System will use pure water only and cools the water with a little radiator I can place in front of the engine radiator. It is actually an oil cooler design.

I now have a non-cat downpipe and have lost the plastic engine cover with a more business-like approach to noises and emissions in that it will make more of all. The re-circ valve will now vent to atmosphere as will the cam cover breather and the wastegate actuator control valve.

As I am mid-development at the moment, I won't be coming to Mitcar tomorrow in this. I am aiming to have all this working end of next week in time for a trackday on the following Monday. Fingers crossed!

 

[Dunc Uno Turbo]

Hi lewey,

just popped on here to see how your conversion is going. I see your have a few teething problems with mating up the clocks etc. I guess this is just part of it all retro fitting a new engine in an old car!

it looks very factory under the bonnet though, which i always like to see. Nothing worse than an engine that has literally been "thrown" in!!

So whats actually left on your "to sort/to do" list?

Have you driven it much? I may sort out having 22nd Aug off and popping up to donnington to have a nose, maybe a ride out? Not promising anything as im pretty busy at work, but its only down the road for me

Keep up the cracking work

Dunc