Technical 0.9 Twinair engine pressure issue

[zippygav]

Thanks for having us along on the forum.



Finally bought a 61 plate 0.9 yesterday for my stepdaughter. It’s done 45k



It was sold with an engine fault, there appears to be a lot of pressure when the oil cap is off while running. I know there is always a bit of pressure in engines, but being new to the twin air, I didn’t know if it was normal.



Expecting to be swapping an engine, to my surprise, I drove it home (all fine). Seems to be plenty of power.



Coolant is clean, oil is clean, checked the mesh filter in the head (looks clear), breather and vacuum pipe to air intake all clear. Pulled the plugs, look ok. Only a very small oil leak off the sump but not investigated further.



Has had a recent oil change as an attempt to solve the issue. I’ve read that aftermarket filters can be problematic, as can the correct oil.



There is an occasional grindy type noise during revving / dying down which sounds like a pulley bearing or something. Not sure if that’s linked.



I think we will just run it as is for now, but still prepared to do an engine swap. Would hope it isn’t going to die somewhere where it will put our daughter in danger mind!



Does anyone have any ideas that I could try? Or do these engines simply have a lot of pressure?

Thanks in advance!

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi @zippygav

Ive got 2 twinairs.. no mechanical issues..

But one acts.up with a sensor issue...

I love the good one though.. Ive had it from new..
And was concerned by reports of HIGH oil consumption

So made great effort to run it in well..
Its oiltight


However.. many are not!!

Im wondering if yours just has 'blow.by' caused by faiing rings
Unfortunately 'compression tests' are not reliable with these..

But being a twin.. rebuilding yours might be cost effective compared to a used motor

Tough call.. I would give it LOTS of use now to see how it is

Charlie - near the M4

 

[zippygav]

Hi @zippygav

Ive got 2 twinairs.. no mechanical issues..

But one acts.up with a sensor issue...

I love the good one though.. Ive had it from new..
And was concerned by reports of HIGH oil consumption

So made great effort to run it in well..
Its oiltight


However.. many are not!!

Im wondering if yours just has 'blow.by' caused by faiing rings
Unfortunately 'compression tests' are not reliable with these..

But being a twin.. rebuilding yours might be cost effective compared to a used motor

Tough call.. I would give it LOTS of use now to see how it is

Charlie - near the M4

Thanks Charlie, great input. Appreciate it.

 

[astacheva]

Have you checked the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) valve ?? Clean it and make sure it isn't stuck. Its should have some sort of rattle inside.
If so would be a good idea replacing it for a new one.
There are plenty of youtube videos in regards PCV valves.

 

[zippygav]

Have you checked the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) valve ?? Clean it and make sure it isn't stuck. Its should have some sort of rattle inside.
If so would be a good idea replacing it for a new one.
There are plenty of youtube videos in regards PCV valves.

Hi, I removed it from the head last weekend. This is the brass valve that is under the hex cover to the centre rear of the rocker cover? The mesh inside was clear, though there was no rattle. From memory, you can see the ball and I don't think it moved.
Is there any other PCV on the twinair engine? All of the Youtube videos seem to be for 4 cylinder models or other cars altogether.
Thanks for your help

 

[The Panda Nut]

I have a TA, my second, and the crankcase does run at more pressure than any other car I have owned. It really blows if you have the oil cap off with the engine running. I had a lot of mayo in the first car but concluded it is not abnormal, or unusual ater consulting dealers acreoss England for advice. I run the engine with the cap off every now and again to vent condensation. (Not recommended in case you forget to refit it before driving!!!) It has been known to blow a lump of gunge out with surprising vigour. I discussed it with GEM's technical advisor and think its as it was designed.

 

[varesecrazy]

My twinairs are 2012 and 13

Nothing of note regarding condensation

The 2018 FIRE is the opposite.. always mayo in the oil cap.. but no obvious issues elsewhere

 

[zippygav]

I have a TA, my second, and the crankcase does run at more pressure than any other car I have owned. It really blows if you have the oil cap off with the engine running. I had a lot of mayo in the first car but concluded it is not abnormal, or unusual ater consulting dealers acreoss England for advice. I run the engine with the cap off every now and again to vent condensation. (Not recommended in case you forget to refit it before driving!!!) It has been known to blow a lump of gunge out with surprising vigour. I discussed it with GEM's technical advisor and think its as it was designed.

This is extremely reassuring information. I really appreciate it. Will try the oil cap thing too. Many thanks.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I used to worry about the TA and its variety of assorted unusual funny noises. I am somewhat OCD. I have long given up worrying its always settleed down. Sometimes it sounds terrible on startup but it always settles after a minute or two. The engines run damp so may is apparently normal. I sold my first one and bought another new one to be sure. Its the same. I wipe away any excess gunge and sometimes leave the oil filler cap off for an hour or two after a long run, but as said its a risk incase you forget to replace it. If the engine sounds reasonably smooth on tickover after it has settled after start up dont worry too much. I spoke to the senior technicians at five dealers, some of the longest established in England and they all said the same about mayo in the cam cover and all wanted to show me other cars. None said they had any big issues. I just remind myself that Fioat have been around for a very long time. They have been building small engines with two cylinders for far longer than anyone else so know what they are doing. Things to watch seem to be dual mass flywheel bearings on older cars and turbo wastegate actuator rods. The latter unlikely to manifest itself before 90,000 miles and the flywheel is likely to show as significant vibration if failing. If you notice this get immediate diagnoios and repairs as it could be very expensive if it breaks. SInce around 2017 a revised bearing was fitted which may be more reliable (I hope). I hope you get good service as I have done so far and enjoy your TA to the max. Although not economical per se, it can be made to do 60mpg at a push as mine did in the last big fuel shortage.

 

[zippygav]

I used to worry about the TA and its variety of assorted unusual funny noises. I am somewhat OCD. I have long given up worrying its always settleed down. Sometimes it sounds terrible on startup but it always settles after a minute or two. The engines run damp so may is apparently normal. I sold my first one and bought another new one to be sure. Its the same. I wipe away any excess gunge and sometimes leave the oil filler cap off for an hour or two after a long run, but as said its a risk incase you forget to replace it. If the engine sounds reasonably smooth on tickover after it has settled after start up dont worry too much. I spoke to the senior technicians at five dealers, some of the longest established in England and they all said the same about mayo in the cam cover and all wanted to show me other cars. None said they had any big issues. I just remind myself that Fioat have been around for a very long time. They have been building small engines with two cylinders for far longer than anyone else so know what they are doing. Things to watch seem to be dual mass flywheel bearings on older cars and turbo wastegate actuator rods. The latter unlikely to manifest itself before 90,000 miles and the flywheel is likely to show as significant vibration if failing. If you notice this get immediate diagnoios and repairs as it could be very expensive if it breaks. SInce around 2017 a revised bearing was fitted which may be more reliable (I hope). I hope you get good service as I have done so far and enjoy your TA to the max. Although not economical per se, it can be made to do 60mpg at a push as mine did in the last big fuel shortage.

Thanks again Panda Nut. I'm really satisfied that all is well now. I had also best get the release bearing rattle looked at too.

 

[Chopin]

I have a TA, my second, and the crankcase does run at more pressure than any other car I have owned. It really blows if you have the oil cap off with the engine running. I had a lot of mayo in the first car but concluded it is not abnormal, or unusual ater consulting dealers acreoss England for advice. I run the engine with the cap off every now and again to vent condensation. (Not recommended in case you forget to refit it before driving!!!) It has been known to blow a lump of gunge out with surprising vigour. I discussed it with GEM's technical advisor and think its as it was designed.

Just tested my Twinair with rubber glove - nearly sucked it into engine... The opposit of above although it does spit out oil with cap off giving the effect of it blowing air out - which is correct?

 

[The Panda Nut]

My TA which I bought new has now done 23K miles. Its my second TA and mirrors the behaviour of the first. It does run wet and there is a build up of mayonaise type gunge inn the engine. I have asked Fiat dealers across the UK and had a universal response that the TA does this and its 'normal' for it. I have been told that mine is much better than ,most too. If you remove the oil cap with the engine running it will blow big gobs of this stuff out of the engine and the better part of 5m into the air! The lumps of muck are the size of tennis balls. This I discovered when trying to dry the sump out by leaving the oil cap off after a long run. I asked my 3 local dealers and 3 of the oldest established Fiat dealers in the UK. They ALL responded the same, so I have ceased worrying about what I see as bad engine crankcase conditions. I do however change the oil like clock work and will never have anything other than the exact oil make and grade in the engine. Oil additive packages are unique to each, and the TA engine was developed with the Selenia oil. The oil specifications on this engine are not vague, but scientifically specific to allow the oil to perform things no other engine has to. My view is use anything else at your peril, and that is from someone who for 50 years looked at the specifications not the brandand bought accordingly. I think your supposition that the TA has a high crank case pressure is right, but dont know what this means. With sealed crank cases being required by emissions regs there will be valve controls to keep things honest but I have no idea what or where these are. As the oil is involved in valve operation and control on this is by ecu things are clearly neither stright forward or straight line so what you describe could be normal. Chopin I think you are lucky you have not destroyed the engine by ingesting this glove you used!!! I know of someone in our village who had a 500TA that was destroyed by a rag being ingested while it was in service, so suction may be a normal thing via the breathers, and the filler cap. I would not be doing that again!!!!!! That car had done 125,000 miles and was still running OK at the time. I hope your TA will run on for years, as Im hope mine will. Its an addictive thing the TA once you have got it the torque and power from this tiny engine is unbelievable and great fun. Im sure that basically the whole system is not impossible to service, but the lack of information is very irritating. There really isnt much to go wrong and the components that might fail OUGHT to be available to enable reconditioning. I cannot accept the need to replace the entire Uniair Unit rather than recondition it. I HATE black magic but tolerate it to have a car that has such a small and environmentally friendly engine. It can do 60mpg with a lot of effort, and it can also do 100mph with thte greatest of ease and the way it will charge up hills is astonishing compared to nearly anything else I have ever driven. It isn't super fast, but it is 4x4 and exceptionally capable at that. There really isnt anything else that comes close to the exceptionally broad range of capabilities this car has. While something else will beat it at nearly everything in isolation, nothing comes near doing all it can across the board. Adding in the fact its a really nice drive in all normal and even extreme circumstances and you have the reason why people become deeply attached to the Panda 4x4 and the TA version. I often wonder if I should have a diesel for the greater economy (undisputable) but think the TA is a really great example of a petrol engine. I really wish it didnt scare the hell out of me with all the wheezing and odd bird noises it makes. As long as it runs smoothly once it wakes up however I will be happy. I paid £12400 for my TA and I have thrown a few hundred more at it in extras. Its coming up to 6 years old now and from here on in the overall depreciation rate will start to become much more acceptable. I am already thousands in credit from the cost of leasing and its must still be worth 8 to 9K so it can afford grudgingly to have some repairs. As with most cars if you are buying second hand and get a car that has been properly serviced and not hammered iof its running OK on a decent long test drive you should be off to a good start. If anyone has an old unwanted TA uniair unit tthey want to throw out, would love to investigate it, even cut it into sections so we can see how it operates. If anyone reading has a candidate for this please get in touch!

 

[The Panda Nut]

Just tested my Twinair with rubber glove - nearly sucked it into engine... The opposit of above although it does spit out oil with cap off giving the effect of it blowing air out - which is correct?

P.S. Im glad you are not my physician. I was just testing his breathing just before it stopped.

LOL

 

[Bob Sinclair]

Hi guys, I have an oil leak where intercooler pipe is connected to turbo and also halfway inside the air duct to turbo there is some oil. I think it is a problem resulting from internal crankcase pressure. Oil feed and return lines looking dry. No power loss, engine runs fine. Clogged PCV valve? Anyone experiencing the same problem? If any of you knows where the PCV valve is located please reply with a pic. Except for regular maintenance, its difficult, if not impossible,to find anything about the TA regarding this matter.

Thank you in advance for any advice and possible remedies.

 

[Chopin]

Hi guys, I have an oil leak from the turbo where the intercooler pipe is connected to the turbo and also halfway inside the air intake manifold there is some oil. I think it is a problem resulting from internal crankcase pressure. No power loss, engine runs fine. Clogged PCV valve? Anyone experiencing the same problem? If any of you knows where the PCV valve is located please reply with a pic. Except for regular maintenance its difficult, if not impossible,to find anything about the TA regarding this matter.

Thank you in advance for any advice and possible remedies.

Had an oil issue there twice with mine - first time the intercooler pipe split along its length causing a limp mode issue - found split after removing tray and seeing oil weep - new pipe solved - no oil in old one as obviously drained through split. Recently just changed turbo and when removed turbo to intercooler pipe removed a quantity of oil from pipe (cupful) - apparently normal(ish) if a bit weird to me - also had oil on intake area of air filter. Not a turbo problem as such as the turbo was in A1 condition but wastegate bearings on these are made of cheese so changed complete unit (rebushing costs more). Made note to remove oil from this pipe at services. Interesting video where this can be seen at 5:40 on this video

 

[Bob Sinclair]

Had an oil issue there twice with mine - first time the intercooler pipe split along its length causing a limp mode issue - found split after removing tray and seeing oil weep - new pipe solved - no oil in old one as obviously drained through split. Recently just changed turbo and when removed turbo to intercooler pipe removed a quantity of oil from pipe (cupful) - apparently normal(ish) if a bit weird to me - also had oil on intake area of air filter. Not a turbo problem as such as the turbo was in A1 condition but wastegate bearings on these are made of cheese so changed complete unit (rebushing costs more). Made note to remove oil from this pipe at services. Interesting video where this can be seen at 5:40 on this video

Ah I see, did the crack start from the flange down along the pipe? The oil that mine is loosing is not noticable on oilstick between oilchanges (every 9- max12000kms, but when going for longer trips the air filter cover gets partially spotty. It seems that the oil inside the air intake duct is accumulated where the breather pipe is connected.

Vid is good, thanks. Quite a big load of oil.

 

[Chopin]

Ah I see, did the crack start from the flange down along the pipe? The oil that mine is loosing is not noticable on oilstick between oilchanges (every 9- max12000kms, but when going for longer trips the air filter cover gets partially spotty. It seems that the oil inside the air intake duct is accumulated where the breather pipe is connected.

Vid is good, thanks. Quite a big load of oil.

My split on the rubber pipe was at the lower turn and looked like a manufacturing flaw as it followed the moulding line. The oil in that pipe accumulates over time so would not be a noticable loss on the dip stick. My thought (which may be incorrect) is that a build up over time could result in the airflow bubbling through or passing over the oil prior to entering the air filter - hence the spotting of oil.

 

[Bob Sinclair]

My split on the rubber pipe was at the lower turn and looked like a manufacturing flaw as it followed the moulding line. The oil in that pipe accumulates over time so would not be a noticable loss on the dip stick. My thought (which may be incorrect) is that a build up over time could result in the airflow bubbling through or passing over the oil prior to entering the air filter - hence the spotting of oil.

Hmm, might be a good idea to check that. A little crack on the hose satured with oil sipping out under pressure spreading it out on the fan shroud and surroundings.
I'll check the breather hose as well. Still would like to know where exactly the PCV valve is to prove if it works correctly.

 

[Chopin]

Hmm, might be a good idea to check that. A little crack on the hose satured with oil sipping out under pressure spreading it out on the fan shroud and surroundings.
I'll check the breather hose as well. Still would like to know where exactly the PCV valve is to prove if it works correctly.

There is a brass valve actuator filter and valve between the Coil Packs - You will see the black plastic cover which takes a 1/4 socket handle and comes off with quarter turn then the valve unscrews and can be cleaned with brake cleaner or similar it should click when shaken if working... The PCV sensor is easy to find (once you know).. Put your hand down behind Oil Filter housing (on cold engine) and 5cm below you will feel the spark plug shaped sensor with single wire going to it - careful as cable is held on with a clip - I undid sensor with open end spanner leaving wire on (it rotates) c17mm and removed wire when I could see the clip. £15 to replace

 

[Bob Sinclair]

There is a brass valve actuator filter and valve between the Coil Packs - You will see the black plastic cover which takes a 1/4 socket handle and comes off with quarter turn then the valve unscrews and can be cleaned with brake cleaner or similar it should click when shaken if working... The PCV sensor is easy to find (once you know).. Put your hand down behind Oil Filter housing (on cold engine) and 5cm below you will feel the spark plug shaped sensor with single wire going to it - careful as cable is held on with a clip - I undid sensor with open end spanner leaving wire on (it rotates) c17mm and removed wire when I could see the clip. £15 to replace