Technical Weird Steering
- Thread starter martinthefirst
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Technical Weird Steering
Does it
Delay slight from when you turn the steering wheel
Or
Does it take extra effort to start to move the steering wheel
Is turning one way different to the other
Is it the same or better at lower speeds
Has the car had a bump lately, large pot hole, banged curb, small accident
Most odd feeling to steering without the EPS light on
Suspension arm bushing (very common)
Tyre pressure (common)
Top mounts
Tyre side wall
Rack (mainly after a bump)
Universal joints or column binding
Torque sensor (only if it different right to left, or at full lock in one direction)
The amount of input from the steering motor is proptional to the speed, a damaged rack will often work fine at car park speeds,
Lot of thing give similar results
Gather as much information as possible, the we can try an dignose the problem without taking wild guessing
Or are we just talking about self centering
Fine on larger movement but very little on smaller movements
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The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Tell us about self centring do. Daffo self centring is poor and very poor if just turning a small amount. It does do it, just poorly which always irritates me.
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Getting the torque correct on those B bearings is not possible with home tools. I did mine by feel. I reduced the torque a bit to see if that would help self centring and had it checked by the dealer. They gave it back without comment. I decided to assemble the bearings dry as they will just attract muck and I can't see beenfit of stuffing grease into such a vast open ball race. Its still horrid but no different 4 years since the front end was rebuilt.
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
This all just proves electric PAS is a terrible and stupid idea. No way is saves weight and its just plain horrible. Better in the Panda than the Bravo though. That used to pulse slightly on gentle motorway curves. That was really irritating. It makes steering easy but has no other good points at all.
Self centering is both built in the geometry and software
The torque sensor is also an angle sensor
It can be recalibrate anywhere, pull to the left, pull to the right within reason, and a long as the road is flat
The geometry is also effected by the amount of grip the tyre have and the wheel off set
Hard, over pressure tyres will never self center very well
Because it proportional to the speed there is less self centering at higher speeds
Here's fiats take
This function is designed to make the realignment quicker, causing the servo motor to intervene to assist the normal geometric effect.
The active return correction varies according to the speed of the vehicle:
It is greatest at low speeds.
It is lowest at high speeds.
The servo motor carries out the active return of the steering wheel according to the steering angle in relation to the centre. The greater the steering angle, the greater the effort of the motor to realign the wheels
The servo motor reduces the extent of the oscillations (B) during the return to the straight line driving route and intervenes more at high speeds.
The torque sensor is also an angle sensor
It can be recalibrate anywhere, pull to the left, pull to the right within reason, and a long as the road is flat
The geometry is also effected by the amount of grip the tyre have and the wheel off set
Hard, over pressure tyres will never self center very well
Because it proportional to the speed there is less self centering at higher speeds
Here's fiats take
ACTIVE RETURN
The return stage refers to the realignment function normally produced by the geometry of the vehicle's front section when the steering is released after steering.This function is designed to make the realignment quicker, causing the servo motor to intervene to assist the normal geometric effect.
The active return correction varies according to the speed of the vehicle:
It is greatest at low speeds.
It is lowest at high speeds.
The servo motor carries out the active return of the steering wheel according to the steering angle in relation to the centre. The greater the steering angle, the greater the effort of the motor to realign the wheels
STEERING RETURN OSCILLATION DAMPING
After the steering wheel is released following a steering manoeuvre, the car’s chassis produces oscillations (A) which, if they persist for some time, can become irritating.The servo motor reduces the extent of the oscillations (B) during the return to the straight line driving route and intervenes more at high speeds.
As with a lot of things there isn't one answer
Here one fixed by different tyres
https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/steering-no-self-centering-after-abarth-upgrade.488081/
Some of the problems I have had although not always a Panda
different tyres on each side
Wrong toe setting, a little to out helps
Wrong tyre size fitted
Bent strut
No oil in strut
Tyre pressure
Rusty ball bearings in the top mount
Bent anti roll bar
Drop links not the same length (*)
UJ joints dried out
Loose rack bolts
But by far the most common is wear, At one time I was driving a car that needed the TCA bushes replacing every 20K and I was doing this ever 3 to 6 months, you get use to how it feels, but it hard to notice when it's taking years to gradually degrade.
(*) always ment to do a thread on this, I have just fitted a drop link to a panda that got a damaged boot, they were fairly new so I just ordered the one, measured side by side they were about 5 mm difference, alway check things you buy on ebay.
Here one fixed by different tyres
https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/steering-no-self-centering-after-abarth-upgrade.488081/
Some of the problems I have had although not always a Panda
different tyres on each side
Wrong toe setting, a little to out helps
Wrong tyre size fitted
Bent strut
No oil in strut
Tyre pressure
Rusty ball bearings in the top mount
Bent anti roll bar
Drop links not the same length (*)
UJ joints dried out
Loose rack bolts
But by far the most common is wear, At one time I was driving a car that needed the TCA bushes replacing every 20K and I was doing this ever 3 to 6 months, you get use to how it feels, but it hard to notice when it's taking years to gradually degrade.
(*) always ment to do a thread on this, I have just fitted a drop link to a panda that got a damaged boot, they were fairly new so I just ordered the one, measured side by side they were about 5 mm difference, alway check things you buy on ebay.
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Does it do it the same in city mode.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
On ours we never use City mode. Another pointless thing I think.
Makes reverse parking and three point turns or whatever you like to call them these days a breeze
Just have to remember to press it whenever you need a lot of lock at very low speeds or while stationary
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I have a 2006 169 Diesel and it is fine, but in about 2005 I
had to drive a new as in 50 miles on the clock petrol it
was ok round town but a real pain to keep straight on
the M-way glad to hand it back.
had to drive a new as in 50 miles on the clock petrol it
was ok round town but a real pain to keep straight on
the M-way glad to hand it back.
That's interesting
The 06 1.3D and 05 1.1 or 1.2
Have identical suspenstion, hubs, rack, steering column, except the springs rates, and stiffer struts
Tracking
Tyre brand
Tyre pressure
Tyre size
Wheel size
Are the only things I see that could be different
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When I got mine at 20.000 miles it did not wander but it had a strong under steer,
it had quite a bit of toe in on the tracking, now I have read that this is correct for
the 169 but all my experience tells me front drive should track out a tuch, reset
it so and it has been fine since with less tyre ware, now that's what I did, I am not
saying you should your mileage may very and all that.
it had quite a bit of toe in on the tracking, now I have read that this is correct for
the 169 but all my experience tells me front drive should track out a tuch, reset
it so and it has been fine since with less tyre ware, now that's what I did, I am not
saying you should your mileage may very and all that.
I thought this might be a good place to add this info.
I have a 2011 69BHP VVT Panda for my son to learn to drive.
While it is ok, the steering doesn't centre and return great and bumps affect the steering more than I would expect.
Moving on, I picked up a low mileage 2004 Panda for spares and compared the strut tops.
Image on the left, with the spare nut on top (ignore that, it's just so I don't loose it) is the 2011 car and the strut top bearing part is aligned towards the front.
Middle picture is from the 2004 spare car (which I'm assuming is original) and the strut top is aligned towards the rear of the car.
So, I would expect the spare 2004 car to have more Caster.
Looking at the alignment I got done to sort the tracking on the 2011 car, Caster is red and about 0o, when it should be +2.5o - assuming +ve is towards the back of the car.
I'm hoping that when I change the struts with new tops and twist towards the rear that it will give me some Caster and a nicer drive.
Worth checking, if your car is not driving the way you think it should.
Me changing the struts won't be soon, but will get back here when it's done and let you know if there is an improvement.
Dave
I have a 2011 69BHP VVT Panda for my son to learn to drive.
While it is ok, the steering doesn't centre and return great and bumps affect the steering more than I would expect.
Moving on, I picked up a low mileage 2004 Panda for spares and compared the strut tops.
Image on the left, with the spare nut on top (ignore that, it's just so I don't loose it) is the 2011 car and the strut top bearing part is aligned towards the front.
Middle picture is from the 2004 spare car (which I'm assuming is original) and the strut top is aligned towards the rear of the car.
So, I would expect the spare 2004 car to have more Caster.
Looking at the alignment I got done to sort the tracking on the 2011 car, Caster is red and about 0o, when it should be +2.5o - assuming +ve is towards the back of the car.
I'm hoping that when I change the struts with new tops and twist towards the rear that it will give me some Caster and a nicer drive.
Worth checking, if your car is not driving the way you think it should.
Me changing the struts won't be soon, but will get back here when it's done and let you know if there is an improvement.
Dave
Attachments
My 2004 1200 8 valve both are the same as pic 2 Even when I changed the bump stop and the top mount on the N/S. You don't say if both sides are the same. If any work has been carried prior to you buying the car, the top mounts may have been fitted the wrong way round, search on here for info.
However, my knowledge is limited to my model only and the later model that you have pic 1 could be correct.
However, my knowledge is limited to my model only and the later model that you have pic 1 could be correct.
Sounds like play in suspension or steering to me
Bumps should not effect the steering at all
Did the alignment centre check the suspension over before aligning it
Are the lower arms nearly new
Correct
Depends how you pull up, reverse in, forwards, whether it's on a slope, how hard you brake and so on
Top mount do wear, and it's not unknown for someone to fit them backwards
But it's also not unusual for one side to be different to the other and usually nothing to be alarmed about
Doesn't look like it's sitting flush
One side higher than the other
Or is it just the photo
One side higher than the other
Or is it just the photo
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Yep I agree with you Jock. The Panda 169 steering is in many ways a delight, but Daffo - our 2011 169 - is exactly the same and it needs your attention to avoid it wandering off, Its an aspect of the car that is irritating and verging on horrid at times, but often you dont notice it too. Our 2014 car is a 319 and doesnt do this. I had several go's at the strut top bearing torqueimg and then got the dealer to do it again. It made absolutely no difference, It almost feels like its a little stiff and reluctant to perfectly self centre. I think its normal for the 169. It is not to do with tyres or tyre pressures these make no difference to it. Electric steering is just fundamentally nasty and it has many drawbacks of which this centering aspect is just one. People who never drove an unassisted car probably dont know or dont care. The amount of feel and feedback from the Panda and I think all other electric power steerings is BAD. All mine run on the very best tyres that you can get in order to ensure that there is grip available. Daffo had had Goodyear and Continental over the years. Conti's are way the better. I have learned you can feel the road but you need to know what feel is expected in order to do so as its about 2% of an unassisted system. Beats me entirely why they needed to fit power steering on such a small light weight car with such skinny tyres in the first place. If you accept its got limitations and adjust to them its OK. The weight of the assistance and the directness makes up for some of the above. It does sound like there is some variation between cars too.
The Bravo was different, it also had pittifully little feel and used to hunt when turning at very small angles like motorway curves with the steering pulsing, and that had speed sensitive steering. It had no feel or feedabck either but with Continetal Eco 6 tyres the grip was actually phenomenal so driven anywhere like sensibly you knew there was a lot in reserve. The pulsing was just a feature that you live with.
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Thi k
Think that's just the photo.
