Technical MOT Failure and not sure where to start. Series 8 Fiat Ducato 2021

[Stinky88]

Hi All,

Looking for some advice on how to clear the Airbag light on my dash, Fiat tell me its because the passenger seat has been removed and replaced. I never saw the van before the conversion so cannot confirm.

All I have is the picture attached. I don't have the original seat or any pretensioner if it had one.

From what I have learnt so far, if there was a pretensioner there would have been a loom attached to this that would allow the connection The light on the dash is red, and always on.

Any ideas?

 

[the green vanper]

Hello,

No idea about the x290, but in the x250, the earlier model, was very sensible about all the security systems (airbag, tensioners). I don't think much has changed since, as it's a very sensible and important system overall.

Before any actions with the steering wheel, the seats and the passenger side dashboard (if an airbag is fitted) the starter battery has to be disconnected. And beware, in the x250 there is a special procedure to do it! It is described in the owner's manual.

If not respected, the airbag module can get an error which cannot be reset with MES. This can be repaired, there are a couple of threads on the forum on that issue, with company name able to fix the module. In most of the cases...

If you don't have MES and the appropriate adapter yourself, find someone who has to try to reset the error. Could be just that simple.

But somewhere near 2018 SEVEL started to install a security gateway to prevent people from connecting to the CAN system, as it became very easy and popular. I think there is already a workaround, but I'm not sure, as I have an older van myself.

On the multiecuscan.net website you'll find all the information what kind of adapter you will need to connect to the airbag module and also if bypassing the SGW is possible.

The CAN system works in a way that all changes to the CAN registered equipement (such as airbags, tensioners, but also radio, etc.) have to be validated to be taken into consideration. The proces in MES is called Proxy alignment. Before you do it, back up the original configuration. There is a description how to do it somewhere on the forum.

 

[Stinky88]

Hello,

No idea about the x290, but in the x250, the earlier model, was very sensible about all the security systems (airbag, tensioners). I don't think much has changed since, as it's a very sensible and important system overall.

Before any actions with the steering wheel, the seats and the passenger side dashboard (if an airbag is fitted) the starter battery has to be disconnected. And beware, in the x250 there is a special procedure to do it! It is described in the owner's manual.

If not respected, the airbag module can get an error which cannot be reset with MES. This can be repaired, there are a couple of threads on the forum on that issue, with company name able to fix the module. In most of the cases...

If you don't have MES and the appropriate adapter yourself, find someone who has to try to reset the error. Could be just that simple.

But somewhere near 2018 SEVEL started to install a security gateway to prevent people from connecting to the CAN system, as it became very easy and popular. I think there is already a workaround, but I'm not sure, as I have an older van myself.

On the multiecuscan.net website you'll find all the information what kind of adapter you will need to connect to the airbag module and also if bypassing the SGW is possible.

The CAN system works in a way that all changes to the CAN registered equipement (such as airbags, tensioners, but also radio, etc.) have to be validated to be taken into consideration. The proces in MES is called Proxy alignment. Before you do it, back up the original configuration. There is a description how to do it somewhere on the forum.

Thanks for your reply! That all sounds well above my knowledge base.

Ill start a hunt for someone local to help

 

[bugsymike]

I agree with all the above advice from @the green vanper.

It would have been the responsibility of the company selling you the vehicle if the light has been on all the time. Didn't you mention it to the seller at that time?
Did they sell you the vehicle with 12 months Mot done prior to removing the seat or was this it's first Mot?
If you were at the Fiat Dealers surely there was someone competent to put the vehicle on the Diagnostic equipment to do the "proxi alignment " to tell the computer there was no passenger seat etc. and delete any error codes.
Presumably the only other option is to fit a correct seat in that position, following all the installation requirements so computer recognises it.

 

[Stinky88]

I agree with all the above advice from @the green vanper.

It would have been the responsibility of the company selling you the vehicle if the light has been on all the time. Didn't you mention it to the seller at that time?
Did they sell you the vehicle with 12 months Mot done prior to removing the seat or was this it's first Mot?
If you were at the Fiat Dealers surely there was someone competent to put the vehicle on the Diagnostic equipment to do the "proxi alignment " to tell the computer there was no passenger seat etc. and delete any error codes.
Presumably the only other option is to fit a correct seat in that position, following all the installation requirements so computer recognises it.

The fiat i went to said it was due to the passenger seat being changed and they would do nothing as they hadnt carried out the work. So im stick in no mans land with no help from them.

I bought the van brand new, then had it converted, at the time the conversation company just said it needed the fault clearing. But the van wasnt used and it just slipped my mind until now. We are 4 months from its first MOT so im now looking at options of how to fix. And it seems not easy and likely costly.

 

[bugsymike]

The fiat i went to said it was due to the passenger seat being changed and they would do nothing as they hadnt carried out the work. So im stick in no mans land with no help from them.

I bought the van brand new, then had it converted, at the time the conversation company just said it needed the fault clearing. But the van wasnt used and it just slipped my mind until now. We are 4 months from its first MOT so im now looking at options of how to fix. And it seems not easy and likely costly.

Trying not to be to derogatory, but the "conversion company" should have done that as part of a professional service to the customer, I would have thought.
No redress through them?
Did they put on their invoice that it was your responsibility to sort that out?
Presumably if you had an accident and the Airbags failed to deploy, someone would have been liable as I don't think the insurance company would pay up.
Do you think the Fiat Dealer was not keen to do the work due to them not being "happy" about the quality of the conversion, as they would have if it was a recognised conversion company Fiat approved of?
Down here we have a good quality Diagnostics company that the trade uses, is there similar where you are that if you explain your requirements can sort the problem?

 

[HughJampton]

I'm not sure I'd want to replace a seat with SRS with one without (which is what I interpret), but hey-ho.

If they are an "established" conversion company, my suspicion is that, at the year of your vehicle, they may have fallen foul of the Secure Gateway added to more recent vehicles, which inhibits vehicle adjustments without specialist equipment. (earlier years it would have been more simple to reset the light, including with MultiECUscan).

There used to be/is a workaround for such airbag/SRS issues using a resistor inserted in the wiring. I'm pretty sure this approach has been used on Fiat vehicles, and Google brings up numerous examples for different makes. I certainly can't guarantee that approach for your 'van, though (or personally provide details).

It does, however, make you wonder whether half a job has been done, with a/the resistor added during conversion, but the inability in the newer vehicle to reset the light (given the advice you got).

I must admit, I'd be straight back to whoever converted it.

 

[theoneandonly]

But somewhere near 2018 SEVEL started to install a security gateway to prevent people from connecting to the CAN system, as it became very easy and popular. I think there is already a workaround, but I'm not sure, as I have an older van myself.

On the multiecuscan.net website you'll find all the information what kind of adapter you will need to connect to the airbag module and also if bypassing the SGW is possible.

The CAN system works in a way that all changes to the CAN registered equipement (such as airbags, tensioners, but also radio, etc.) have to be validated to be taken into consideration. The proces in MES is called Proxy alignment. Before you do it, back up the original configuration. There is a description how to do it somewhere on the forum.

What software/ hardware do i need to read OBD2 Codes

This a much bigger question than first appears. If we limit it to what is a cost effective DIY solution to "read my Fiat and simple maintenance issues eg change the oil in my euro 6 or add a new MAF sensor" then the answer for me reduces to...

www.fiatforum.com

This guide also has a short section refering to the SGW. I believe the Series 8 2021 has a the SGW built into the BCM and no bypass is available.
for those pre2020 this guide shows how to to a proxi alignment and has a shortcut to backing up the proxi-file.

New proxi alignment with Multiecuscan

To create a new proxi file (once you have changed things that need a proxi alignment). For example changing an airbag module. Prior to any proxi alignment it is advisable to create a backup first. See guide...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[the green vanper]

I'm not sure I'd want to replace a seat with SRS with one without (which is what I interpret), but hey-ho.

If they are an "established" conversion company, my suspicion is that, at the year of your vehicle, they may have fallen foul of the Secure Gateway added to more recent vehicles, which inhibits vehicle adjustments without specialist equipment. (earlier years it would have been more simple to reset the light, including with MultiECUscan).

There used to be/is a workaround for such airbag/SRS issues using a resistor inserted in the wiring. I'm pretty sure this approach has been used on Fiat vehicles, and Google brings up numerous examples for different makes. I certainly can't guarantee that approach for your 'van, though (or personally provide details).

It does, however, make you wonder whether half a job has been done, with a/the resistor added during conversion, but the inability in the newer vehicle to reset the light (given the advice you got).

I must admit, I'd be straight back to whoever converted it.

Looking at the floor mounting screws, they replaced the double passenger seat with a single passenger seat.

Putting a resistor in fact is a workaround. The proper way is to do the proxy alignment.

The information about the SGW can be found on the top of the vehicles list at http://www.multiecuscan.net/SupportedVehiclesList.aspx. Apparently there is a bypass available.

@Stinky88 the cable on the photo, is it the one that hungs down from the seat, or sticks out from the floor? Single seats also have tensioners.

 

[HughJampton]

Looking at the floor mounting screws, they replaced the double passenger seat with a single passenger seat.

Putting a resistor in fact is a workaround. The proper way is to do the proxy alignment.

I'm no expert at this, but I'm unconvinced that proxy alignment alone would fix the issue.

If the airbag ECU is expecting 2 or 3 SRS connections and now only finds one, the issue will surely remain. I don't think there's any way of changing that expectation other than by swapping the airbag ECU to one more appropriate and then doing a proxy align. I certainly haven't found anything in MultiECUscan that seems appropriate. I think that's why people use the resistor to "trick" the ECU.

Maybe you could point to an adjustment if one exists?

 

[NavNie]

Hello together,

In january i was helping a guy who had the same vehicle, he changed the the front double seat into a single seat. At last after 90 Proxie Changes the solution was found after a lot of trouble:
Mes Version 5.2 is not able to config the Airbag Controler
AlfaObd 2.5.0 was able to to config the Airbag Controler, but the ISO Code was not known in the AlfaObd database.
A lot of error Codes coud not be evaluateted because they are not in the database
Another problem was that AlfaObd was not able to do a correcct, error free, proxie alignement

The Pretensioner or the Locked-switch had other resisors as the original double seat , so that the components of the double seat had to be installed at the new single seat. And it is necessary to use the connector for the outer, not the central seat.

At last the following Config Changes:
Front Central Buckle Switch: Present to Absent
Front Central Passenger Presence Detection: Present to Absent
Front Central Buckle Switch Pretensioner: Present to Absent

Hope this helps, regards Klaus

 

[the green vanper]

I'm no expert at this, but I'm unconvinced that proxy alignment alone would fix the issue.

If the airbag ECU is expecting 2 or 3 SRS connections and now only finds one, the issue will surely remain. I don't think there's any way of changing that expectation other than by swapping the airbag ECU to one more appropriate and then doing a proxy align. I certainly haven't found anything in MultiECUscan that seems appropriate. I think that's why people use the resistor to "trick" the ECU.

Maybe you could point to an adjustment if one exists?

In MES there is in fact some Airbag Proxi available in the menu, which is misleading, as after I've checked in the submenu, it is not the similar proxi alignment as the one on the BCM. You can only toggle a few things. I saw also what @NavNie showed: the particular elements status, so now knowing where to change it, it shall be the solution.